^thanks for proving my point. I'll stick to stating my case and not try boosting my ego by telling all who disagree how mentally challenged they are, thanks.

8/29/2005 6:54:47 PM

Please to note that on plays where Vick was sacked he was able to turn a potential 10 yard loss into a loss of 1-3 yards on NUMEROUS occasions.


Please to note that when Drew Bledsoe was sacked he lost the full 10 yards.



Brett Favre over Vick is just freaking absurd. Brett Favre is more likely to take a crap on the field at this stage of his career than have a good game. He is back to throwing TERRIBLE game-costing Interceptions. Brett Favre of '95 is no longer with us and I honestly can't believe you don't realize that...

To clarify here's my top 5 QB's

1) Manning - You can't argue with this after last season.

2) Culpepper - He finally cut down on his ridiculous amount of turnovers (fumbles+INT's). Just two years ago he wouldn't have sniffed anyone's top 5. He's such a threat to run near the goaline and he's been playing sans defense his whole career.

3) Brady - Brady wasn't good the year they won the first super bowl he was just a poster boy for a good team that won the AFC on a fluke play and the Super Bowl in an enormous upset. He had a completely average Super Bowl performance that resulted in the MVP only because they couldnt think of anyone else to give it to. He wasn't a top ten QB his 2nd season when they missed the playoffs either. His third season he was a ~top 10 QB. Last year he came into his own. Part of it was getting Corey Dillon behind him, part of it was that he just broke through learning the offense.

4) Vick - I think I've explained why I'd rank him here.

5) McNabb - He's a good QB only because of his feet. He eludes sacks and buys time. He doesn't rush for a lot of yards really, but he is a threat to run and that improves his ranking. He's very inaccurate and is the beneficiary of having a great defense that allowed immortal QB's like Ty Detmer and AJ Feely to win every week. His stats were never impressive until they added TOwens. He's a good game manager and come up with a lot of tough first downs when needed.


[Edited on August 29, 2005 at 8:39 PM. Reason : a]

8/29/2005 8:36:33 PM

Quote :

"With you guys, there is really no way to win an argument. Obviously stats are the only thing you care about....not winning games."

OMG how about just actually watching the way he plays. Stats aren't a good way to evaluate a player, because there are so many variables that can contribute to a team's stats. Wins aren't a good way to evaluate a player, because there are so many variables that can contribute to a team winning. You have to watch a player perform and understand his talent and ability...that's why this argument keeps going back and forth.

Stats and wins are a good way to evaluate teams, not players.

8/30/2005 12:39:23 AM

^ Thats why the entire time I have been saying Watch Vick Play.

And posted about 100 reasons why his stats are misleading.


But when it comes down to it. If the team cant win when he's gone, but they win frequently when he's there.... that says something.


There are at least 20 QB's in the league right now who New England COULD have won the Super Bowl with. Does that mean Brady sucks? No, because if you watched him play it was obvious that he did not suck.

But you can't tell me that with Jake DelHomme at the helm they couldn't have won the Super Bowl.

Less likely? Sure.


There isn't a QB in the league who could have made the Falcons a Super Bowl favorite last year, not even Manning.... Hell, he couldn't even make the Colts THE Super Bowl favorite

8/30/2005 3:51:27 AM

Quote :

"4) Vick - I think I've explained why I'd rank him here. 5) McNabb - He's a good QB only because of his feet. He eludes sacks and buys time. He doesn't rush for a lot of yards really, but he is a threat to run and that improves his ranking. He's very inaccurate and is the beneficiary of having a great defense that allowed immortal QB's like Ty Detmer and AJ Feely to win every week. His stats were never impressive until they added TOwens. He's a good game manager and come up with a lot of tough first downs when needed. "

damn you are a dumb dicked nigger...vick over mcnabb? oh man you are a fool

8/30/2005 9:57:04 AM

yes, a complete fool.

Because McNabb's statistics and results are SOOOOO much better on a vastly superior team.


I said, given Philadelphia's roster I'd rather have McNabb.


But if you were to look at all 32 team's rosters and then plug either Vick or McNabb in at the QB spot, I think you'd go with Vick on just as many teams as you would McNabb.

On the teams with lots of offensive talent, you go with McNabb (someone who could better utilize the talent).

On the teams void of offensive talent, you go with Vick (someone who could create more plays on his own).

The teams in between there are some tough choices....

it's a close call, I never said Vick was on another planet than McNabb.

[Edited on August 30, 2005 at 10:38 AM. Reason : a]

8/30/2005 10:34:49 AM

McNabb is better than Vick simply because he has proven to be able to consistently lead his team to good seasons...fuck stats...McNabb led the Eagles to 4 straight NFC Title games...sure the Eagles are better than the Falcons...but McNabb is their leader...he cant run as good as Vick but he can pass better...and to quote damn near everybody in this thread, McNabb wins games...hell McNabb beat Vick last time they played

Quote :

"On the teams with lots of offensive talent, you go with McNabb (someone who could better utilize the talent). On the teams void of offensive talent, you go with Vick (someone who could create more plays on his own). "

true...ie I'd rather have Vick on the 49ers...I'd rather have McNabb or a lot of other quarterbacks who can successfully pass on a team with chances to actually go deep in the playoffs...Vick is not gonna win you a Superbowl until he learns to pass better...you think in a Falcons Patriots Superbowl, that Bellichek is gonna let Vick run all over him? HEEELLLLL no...but if he could pass, that would open up other options

But I'm also implying that the best QB isnt necessarily the player who can utilize his own talent the most...the best quarterback can utilize his own talent and the talent of a lot of his teammates...Vick doesn't utilize his teamates' talent enough...its like giving the ball to Kobe at the end of a game...is he the best player in the game? Probably. Is he the best point guard? Fuck no

8/30/2005 11:23:12 AM

Yes, McNabb does win games.

That's why i ranked him top 5.

It's also been proven that a trained monkey (i.e. Feeley) can win games for that team too.

In Atlanta the results are much different.

And i think he's virtually interchangeable with Vick. I'm not saying they have the same set of skills, I'm saying that their overall value is about equal.

I think Peyton is on an island at #1. Culpepper is 2nd because of his talent. Brady is 3rd because of how well he commands an offense. VIck is 4th because he can make any offense dangerous. McNabb is 5th because he's a game manager that can make plays to win.

Quote :

"with chances to actually go deep in the playoffs"

How deep is deep to you? the NFC championship doesn't count as deep? Why don't you just say Super Bowl...

[Edited on August 30, 2005 at 11:34 AM. Reason : a]

8/30/2005 11:32:56 AM

Quote :

"Brett Favre is more likely to take a crap on the field at this stage of his career than have a good game."

And I guarantee you if he did, he'd pick it up and hit a receiver 50 yards downfield.

8/30/2005 11:42:54 AM

Quote :

"On the teams with lots of offensive talent, you go with McNabb (someone who could better utilize the talent). On the teams void of offensive talent, you go with Vick (someone who could create more plays on his own)."

that's exactly what i've been trying to say. vick is unable to to utilize all the weapons available to him right now becasue of his reluctance to pass. maybe utilizing talent is a better way of putting vick's weakness into words. i realize that there are no TO's on the atlanta falcons roster, but this is the NFL. If the receivers couldn't get open or couldn't catch the ball, they wouldn't be in the NFL, period. they aren't the fastest, the tallest, or the shiftiest receivers in the league by any means, but they are still NFL receivers. A good quarterback would be able to take that situation and make it work. look at mcnabb before TO, for example. they made it to 3 NFC championship games in a row before owens even got there, and those other receivers are horrible. i would take peerless price and michael jenkins over todd pinkston, james thrash, and freddie mitchell any day.

it isn't hopeless for vick. he could improve, he did show flashes of a much better quarterback in 2002, but right now, august 30th of 2005, mike vick is not a top 5 NFL quarterback.

Quote :

"its like giving the ball to Kobe at the end of a game...is he the best player in the game? Probably. Is he the best point guard? Fuck no"

ok that i can agree with, i can kinda see where you were going with that earlier comment about vick now.

Quote :

"And I guarantee you if he did, he'd pick it up and hit a receiver 50 yards downfield."

lmao gg

[Edited on August 30, 2005 at 11:46 AM. Reason : ]

8/30/2005 11:43:35 AM

Quote :

"And I guarantee you if he (brett favre) did, he'd pick it up and hit a receiver defender 50 yards downfield."

McNabb vs. Vick you can pick either one and no one has the right to call you an idiot.


You take Favre over Vick in 2005 and you're publicly admitting you know jack shit about the NFL.

Favre is actually WORSE in big games now than in normal ones...

Quote :

"they aren't the fastest, the tallest, or the shiftiest receivers in the league by any means, but they are still NFL receivers"

And they are being defended by NFL defensive backs.

Quote :

"look at mcnabb before TO, for example. they made it to 3 NFC championship games in a row before owens even got there"

Yeah, and they went there on the backs of Philly's defense. Look at McNabb's stats in 2003.

16 games, 57.5%, 3200 yards, 16 TD's 11 INTs, 355 rushing yards

Compared to Vicks in 2004.

14.5 games, 56.4%, 2300 yards, 14 TD's, 12 INTs, 902 rushing yards


Where's the great disparity that clearly I must be missing in those statistics???

[Edited on August 30, 2005 at 12:05 PM. Reason : a]

8/30/2005 12:04:49 PM

Quote :

"McNabb is better than Vick simply because he has proven to be able to consistently lead his team to good seasons...fuck stats...McNabb led the Eagles to 4 straight NFC Title games...sure the Eagles are better than the Falcons...but McNabb is their leader...he cant run as good as Vick but he can pass better...and to quote damn near everybody in this thread, McNabb wins games...hell McNabb beat Vick last time they played "

Ummm, every season that Vick has played the entire season, and even the 4 games he came back and played after he was hurtt, he lead his team to good seasons the two healthy years making it to the playoffs his first, and then to the NFC title game his 3rd, and went 3-1 in the injury year. If thats not consistency, then I don't know what your def of it is. Sure, the Eagles are better than the Falcons, but Vick is the Falcons leader. He cant pass as good as McNabb, but he can run better, and Vick wins games too. Yeah, he got beat by McNabb last year, obviously because McNabb has the better team. As was shown when their fucking 3rd string QB won pretty much every game.

8/30/2005 12:09:31 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, and they went there on the backs of Philly's defense. Look at McNabb's stats in 2003. 16 games, 57.5%, 3200 yards, 16 TD's 11 INTs, 355 rushing yards Compared to Vicks in 2004. 14.5 games, 56.4%, 2300 yards, 14 TD's, 12 INTs, 902 rushing yards Where's the great disparity that clearly I must be missing in those statistics???"

OWNED!

8/30/2005 12:11:33 PM

I just don't get it.

If I said Julius Peppers was better than Jevon Kearse I don't think any sane person would argue with me.

Yet, Jevon Kearse has been to two Super Bowls and Peppers only one....

Is Deion Branch a better WR than Marvin Harrison because the Patriots beat the Colts every year?

Did LD Tomlinson suck when the Chargers went 4-12 every year?

I just don't get it...

If we COULD NOT watch the actual games (think simulation mode on Madden) then we could use statistics, wins, and formulas to try to figure out who the best players were....

but since the games are available to watch, shouldn't we just do that??

8/30/2005 12:16:30 PM

^defensive ends, wide receivers and running backs dont run a teams offense like quarterbacks do

Peppers and LT aren't in charge of getting the snap from center every play and making something happen

quarterbacks are the team leader...i would rather have a smart team leader than a freak athlete...watch how the Randall to Marcus Vick transition causes VT to have a worse year this year than last year

8/30/2005 12:29:08 PM

Yeah, and its gonna be fun to watch when VT kicks the shit out of NCSU

8/30/2005 12:35:50 PM

super

8/30/2005 12:38:06 PM

^^sure thing, tarheel fag...just like they kicked the shit out of us in Blacksburg last year right?

8/30/2005 12:38:18 PM

If you really think y'all are gonna win that game, you are fucking insane. NCSU has a shit team. You talk about QBs leading their teams to victory, look who is leading your team. Fucking Jay Davis. What makes your team gonna be so much better than the 5-6 you went last year. VT is top 10 presason and they have badass Vick #2 leading their team that went 10-2 last year. Thats cool and all that you support your team, but get real, you got lucky and won last year when they missed a last minute field goal. And you're not gonna win this one, and the fact that its being played at NCSU is gonna make that VT win even better.

8/30/2005 12:44:57 PM

who was the only ACC team to beat Virginia Tech last year?

did they sack Randall 10 times?

was Randall a senior with leadership, not an athletic scrambler in his first start ever in a hostile environment?

go back to carolina, fag

^10-2 eh? check the stat books again bitch...they lost to Auburn in their bowl game

8/30/2005 12:47:35 PM

I am by no means a UNC fan, I dont even live in the Carolinas. And yeah, you beat them LAST year. Good job. It was one of your few wins. Vick is way better than Randall and is gonna dominate the game. You still have yet to answer how the shitty Jay Davis is gonna lead your 5-6 team from last year that has clearly not improved that much, to a victory of a preseason top 10 team.

^Regular season dumbass. I didnt include the post season records of both teams since NCSU DIDNT MAKE IT TO A BOWL GAME


[Edited on August 30, 2005 at 12:51 PM. Reason : .]

8/30/2005 12:49:54 PM

a. what the fuck do PRESEASON polls mean?

b.

Quote :

"Vick is way better than Randall and is gonna dominate the game"

you are a fucking retard...Vick has never started a game EVER...they had something last year called SENIOR LEADERSHIP...and our D-Line last year gave Randall fits...our D-Line is better...and Davis isnt worse

who's your bandwagon football team then? since you dont like state or even live in the carolinas, yet you constantly duck those questions...you're probably a hokies fan...you figured "well, vick gave me herpes in my ass, might as well support his alma mater"

Quote :

"regular season, dumbass"

I guess Oklahoma went undefeated then last year according to your retarded way of thinking

8/30/2005 12:51:48 PM

Dawgs and Buckeyes. You're just pissed because you want for NCSU to be so good at football, but year in and year out they always dissapoint. Its kinda sad really.

^Ok, VT went 10-3. Still WAY better than 5-6 and not making it to a bowl game. Happy now?

[Edited on August 30, 2005 at 12:54 PM. Reason : .]

8/30/2005 12:53:56 PM

University of Georgia and Ohio State University...which one of those schools did you attend? Or did you attend both of them?

8/30/2005 12:55:06 PM

Wait though. NCSU had better stats on the field last year than VT. So they must clearly have had the better year.

8/30/2005 12:55:50 PM

Both actually. Thanks for playing.

8/30/2005 12:56:18 PM

YEAH

I'll bet you went to Kansas and UNC also just so you could cheer for their bandwagon basketball teams

8/30/2005 12:56:23 PM

Everyone on here knows I went to OSU you dumb fuck because I talked so much shit on here to all of you who said you were gonna beat us and backed it up with a fucking win.

8/30/2005 12:57:20 PM

Seriously man, you are just ill because your team dissapoints year in and year out. Its ok, you just picked the wrong school to go to if you want to be a diehard football fan. Maybe you should transfer.

8/30/2005 12:58:09 PM

you went to Georgia too right...and whatever basketball team you like, you got a degree there too, right?

8/30/2005 12:58:38 PM

haha, you just cant stand it that two schools I went to, and root for are so much better than your team will ever be, can you? God its pathetic.

8/30/2005 1:00:33 PM

Back to the Vick topic, maybe since the Panthers are gonna suck so bad this year, they can draft Marcus Vick. Then you would be forced to cheer on one of the Vicks.

8/30/2005 1:01:37 PM

im sure you actually went to ohio state and georgia yet you spend so much time posting on an nc state message board...boy i sure believe you...i mean you have all those osu and uga pics in your photo gallery cause you're such a diehard fan...too bad you didnt take E115 and learn how to edit a post

8/30/2005 1:01:54 PM

I post on here because I have some friends who go here and its fun. And damn, I must be missing something, I guess you cant be a diehard fan of a team unless you have pics of them in your TWW photo gallery.

And honestly, I only took one class at UGA one summer, but I went to OSU. I grew up in Georgia and have been a Dawgs fan my entire life.

[Edited on August 30, 2005 at 1:06 PM. Reason : .]

8/30/2005 1:05:24 PM

you didnt go to osu and georgia...man you are too pathetic...put some money on the panthers too unless you're scared

8/30/2005 1:06:17 PM

Dude, I'll scan some of my transcripts for ya from OSU if you dont fuckign believe me. Wanna put your money where your mouth is on that one?

8/30/2005 1:07:15 PM

i'll bet you dont have a degree from osu and georgia

8/30/2005 1:07:41 PM

I had to transfer back down to Georgia when my dad died, and ended up staying down here. But I guess thats my fault too.

But you said I never went to OSU, and I just owned you, now stfu and admit that your team dissapoints you year in and year out and that Vick is a top 5 QB and you'll be good to go

[Edited on August 30, 2005 at 1:13 PM. Reason : .]

8/30/2005 1:12:14 PM

Maybe if you're lucky, they will go 6-6 this year.

8/30/2005 1:13:54 PM

Im outta this thread, myself and rallydurham have more than proven our point on Vick. We'll just let his play this season do the rest of the talking for us. Oh, and I'll drop back in after the VT game just to rub VTs win in a little for you guys who still think NCSU is gonna win.

8/30/2005 1:18:28 PM

my team didnt dissapoint when we went 11-3 a couple years ago

quit with the triple posting already...that link that says Edit Post is there for a reason

i'm sure rally loves how much head you give him

8/30/2005 2:12:54 PM

well, with peerless price gone, his job just got a little harder

8/30/2005 3:39:03 PM

Quote :

"that doesn't explain why Price's numbers were actually worse when Vick was healthy in 2004. Or maybe it does if you're not high on Vick as a passer."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/4703/news

aha gg yahoo.

8/30/2005 3:51:18 PM

Quote :

""I hate y'all," Price told reporters as he left team headquarters for the final time"

lol he sounds steamed

8/30/2005 3:53:07 PM

haha yeah i was gonna say i guess the falcons didn't agree with me about price being a pretty good target. there musta been something going on with that for them to cut their #1/#2 receiver, i guess they just didn't want to pay him like a #1.

8/30/2005 6:31:01 PM

Actually, he was #4 on their depth chart.

8/30/2005 6:38:25 PM

i was talking about last year. obviously they moved him down the depth chart if they cut him.

8/30/2005 6:40:22 PM

Well, when they cut him, he wasn't their #1/#2 receiver. So they weren't "cutting their #1/#2 receiver" like you said. Don't blame me for your poor choice of words.

8/30/2005 6:51:17 PM

I think this suggests that Price isn't quite the WR that some of you were making him out to be.


However, I don't think any exact conclusions can be drawn...


I think the most logical reason based on the information we have to work with right now is that while they may still consider Price to be one of their top 2 WR's, they thought he was a poor value based on his contract...

That is certainly true. Now whether that's the main reason for cutting him who knows.....

He could have been injured, jsut being a dick to management, etc I have no clue...

It seems absolutely crazy that they'd cut him given their weakness at the position already SO.......

Maybe freeing up cap space for T.Owens?? lol, Im sure the analysts will all jump on that potential story.

[Edited on August 30, 2005 at 8:13 PM. Reason : a]

8/30/2005 8:10:48 PM

^haha yeah that's what i was sayin

i was pretty surprised they cut him. my guess is it's a bang for your buck kinda thing like you mentioned.

8/30/2005 9:12:49 PM