Quote :

"and i woke up like an hour later, extremely confused, realized my pants and shit were on the floor, and another guy had just walked off to go to the bathroom"

and your guy was wasted beside you? goes back to responsibility.. either you watch out for yourself or have friends that do

I agree with grapehead and jnpaul, for the most part

10/20/2005 4:12:22 PM

Quote :

"if people stopped thinking it was ok to have sex with a girl thats really drunk and stopped blaming the victim it would avoid more problems"

Can't argue with that. When we reach utopia then women can quit thinking about watching out for themself since everyone will be looking out for everyone. Until then they should be careful. Note I'm not saying drunk girls deserve anything bad to happen to them, but a person's safety is their own responsibility. Sometimes bad things still happen, but there are proactive measures to take.

Quote :

"even being as drunk as i was i was able to not have sex with her. It's not that hard."

So you're saying being drunk isn't a defense against giving consent? If it's not that hard then a drunk person should be able to accept the consequences of their choices while drunk.

10/20/2005 4:12:43 PM

whether you took the money out of my hand or off of my counter, i did not give it to you, therefore you are a thief.


and thieves can burn.

10/20/2005 4:30:49 PM

if a drunk driver is responsible for choosing to drive

then a drunk woman is responsible for choosing to screw




BUT - if she's passed out, expresses any opposition, or does not participate or otherwise encourage the guy, then its rape.

10/20/2005 5:07:08 PM

Quote :

"If she says No or Stop...Anything after that point at least unless she verbally consents at a later time is rape. If He uses force or threat of force then it is rape. If she is passed out, or in a condition where she is rendered immoble then it is rape. However, If she can talk, but dosn't say no or stop. If she is aware enough that she can interact and move with her surroundings. then she is consious enough to make the decision to have sex or not have sex. then its not rape, its a bad decision, it may be a decision influenced by alchohol, but its the same decision sombody makes when they get behind the wheel with after drinking. "

sounds pretty logical, anyone disagree with this?

10/20/2005 5:08:16 PM

id be careful about the " but dosn't say no or stop" part
i read that as implied consent

10/20/2005 5:11:34 PM

Quote :

"and your guy was wasted beside you? goes back to responsibility.. either you watch out for yourself or have friends that do"

like i said, it was an L shaped couch, i was on one side, he was on the other
and it was at like 430 in the morning
but considering i didnt make any noise when i woke up, there wasnt really anything to wake him up

i shouldnt have to watch out for myself, while im sleeping, at a friends place, next to the guy im with
that should not be an issue

10/20/2005 6:05:55 PM

There's not enough information to warrant an eight page discussion.

10/20/2005 6:10:58 PM

if the guy would have just kept it in his pants, none of this would be an issue

10/20/2005 7:01:34 PM

pretty much

10/20/2005 7:03:17 PM

Quote :

"if a drunk driver is responsible for choosing to drive then a drunk woman is responsible for choosing to screw BUT - if she's passed out, expresses any opposition, or does not participate or otherwise encourage the guy, then its rape."

that's the way i think things should be LEGALLY.

but they're not, and i'm not going to jail because some girl changed her mind the next day. furthermore, you SHOULD have enough personal integrity that you wouldn't have sex with a girl if you believe that alcohol is contributing to her decision to sleep with you, EVEN IF it wasn't illegal. but even if you are enough of a dirtbag that you would, i personally don't think it should be considered rape or sexual assault, for precisely the reason that Excoriator mentioned. being drunk isn't an excuse for anything else. why should it be in this case?

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 7:34 PM. Reason : esp since in the case of rape, a drunk guy is responsible for his actions, but a drunk girl is not.]

10/20/2005 7:09:22 PM

people throughout the thread have said there isn't enough info to warrent this much dicussion. but i believe it is okay to set up conditional ideas. if this happened then I'll feel this way, but if this other case happened i'll feel this way. also finding common basic principles about how we feel about rape in general, not this specific case, is something that can be done.

those parts of the discussion are going to happen whether we know the specifics yet or not, and seeing how easy it has been to tangle up discussion of practical steps, moral deservingness, and what the law says, I am kind of glad that this part of the discussion can get going before having a fourth element of the specifics of the case mixed in.

"if the guy would have just kept it in his pants, none of this would be an issue"

Sex take two, so the same applies for the woman so "if the girl had just kept her pants on, none of this would be an issue"

But niether your statement or mine have to do with case specifics or conditionals, so there isn't much value there. I think we can say for sure that if one or both parties had kept their pants on then that would be a good practical step for avoiding sex happening, but that still doesn't add much to an intelectual discussion.

10/20/2005 7:30:59 PM

Quote :

"if the guy would have just kept it in his pants, none of this would be an issue"

IF the girl had not gotten drunk...
IF the girl had not agreed to go home with him...
IF the girl had not "trusted" something who she "knew", implying she knew his decisions with women...



...this wouldn't have happened. I still don't understand how yall arn't seeing that.

-Pack

10/20/2005 10:11:39 PM

its threads like these that make me realize how much easier it would be if people actaully did something like this:

heres the link if the embed doesn’t work: http://www.atomfilms.com/sw/content/consent




my favorite lines, lol
"i the undersigned give Judah..."
"yea thats me"
"righttttt"

"bra removal with his teeth"
"... ok but that really doesnt do anything for my client"

"my client thinks your client is saying that just to get in her pants"
"my client utterly objects"


"my client wants unlimited phone privileges, andddd she wants to meet your clients parents within one month"
"three months"
"two"
"fine"

"my client wants your client to throw in a couple of oversized shirts or jackets that she can wear around campus as a symbol of your client's social castration"

"my client thinks your client knows exactly what we're talking about"

"my client says you cant run from 2nd base to home without crossing third"

"unless of course i can bring up article 20"
"not in your wildest dreams"

"should i go get my lawyer?"

10/20/2005 10:16:58 PM

Maybe if we did this for everyone, we wouldn't have this "cry rape" issue anymore.

10/20/2005 10:25:58 PM

.....and the female lawyer gives the girl a sobriety check...hahahahahahaha....

10/20/2005 10:26:46 PM

i mean, i think that clip is hilarious

but for some people, it really would help

10/20/2005 10:27:42 PM

isnt this just all just speculation. what i mean is, it IS all speculation until some more details come out. i'm more inclined to belive this:

Quote :

"i bet this is an example of two people hooking up at a party, BOTH getting drunk, fucking, and then the girl wakes up the next morning, regrets it, and screams rape."

but wouldnt you feel like such an asshole if the truth actually comes out that it was a true, by the books case of rape? i would.

10/20/2005 11:29:38 PM

Quote :

"id be careful about the " but dosn't say no or stop" part i read that as implied consent"

Exactly--there is such a thing as being too scared to say anything.

10/21/2005 12:11:32 AM

10/21/2005 12:18:57 AM

Quote :

"There's not enough information to warrant an eight page discussion."

TWW court/ethics debate in action

10/21/2005 12:39:25 AM

Quote :

""I'll probably catch shit for this, but most of the psychological trauma rape victims suffer is created by society. As bad as sexual assault is, it only causes depression, withdrawal, or whatever when culture says it should." uhhhh, hows that and what are you basing this conclusion off of"

Ask yourself if rape would be so emotionally damaging without the cultural myths about sex being dirty and only permissible between people married or in "love". I suppose it could be worse though. I've heard that Muslim societies expect women to commit suicide after being raped.

Quote :

"how does that make me responsible for this other kid coming in the room and doing whatever the fuck it was he did to me"

If you got yourself so drunk that being sexually assaulted doesn't wake you, you have voluntarily weakened your self-defense, and that's what you're responsible for.

[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 3:29 AM. Reason : ]

10/21/2005 3:28:17 AM

ok cmon guys. if a girl is asleep or passed out or whatever, and some guy comes in and fucks her while she's out, that is in no way whatsoever the girl's fault.

now, if she gets drunk and willingly has sex with a guy and regrets it later when she's sober, that's her fault.

10/21/2005 3:43:24 AM

^see i think the problem with the second thing you said is that in nc when a chick has even one sip of alcohol technically she can not consent from that moment on

its one gay ass law

10/21/2005 4:00:44 AM

Quote :

"If she is passed out, or in a condition where she is rendered immoble then it is rape."

cept if she is willing and says yea and THEN passes out

10/21/2005 5:44:25 AM

no, if at any time she is no longer able to actively participate, it should become rape to continue.

[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 8:08 AM. Reason : s]

10/21/2005 8:08:10 AM

^^ wow I hope that was sarcastic.

How can any guy with any self-respect, dignity or decency do ANYTHING to a girl that is passed out or not participating? Obviously a rapist wouldn't care, but just a regular guy...c'mon. That's just horrible whether she said yes before she passed out or not.

10/21/2005 9:31:00 AM

Quote :

"How can any guy girl with any self-respect, dignity or decency do ANYTHING to a girl that is causes her to be passed out or not participating?"

10/21/2005 9:52:12 AM

im sure there are cases where a girl is just asleep, like normal sleeping and wakes up to find shes being raped or assualted

10/21/2005 10:03:17 AM

God, i can't count the number of times i've gone home drunk with a drunk girl and hooked up.

I'm lucky none of them were sheisty ass whores.

10/21/2005 10:08:35 AM

^ Thats what me and my girl was talkin bout

I know how unfair this sounds

But Im sure her and the dude were makin out at the party, grindin and touchy feely and whatnot

So you know when he says "you wanna go back to my place" what the hells goin on

I don't wanna sound like she put herself in that position, cause thats wrong...But she's no dummy and knew what was up.

I dunno if she wanted it drunk then didnt want it, was too scared to say no or what (so she wouldnt "feel lame"..heard that from girls before) but I just hope that this was a real accusation. I can say that I hate false claims of rape, but I will say that I wish more women would come out with rape charges because if it happens they need to speak up (I know it sounds weird but I know what Im trying to say)

Did they say how drunk she/the guy were

10/21/2005 10:15:22 AM

isn't it even a little bit sexist against women to say that in the situation where both the girl and the guy are intoxicated, the guy is held responsible for his decision to consent, but the woman has less ability to control her impulses and is therefore legally incapable of consenting to sex?

the law seems to be clear on this point. Men have an innate advantage over women when it comes to impulse control.

I disagree with the law.

[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 10:19 AM. Reason : s]

10/21/2005 10:17:12 AM

keep it real, though

many men will see a overly intoxicated woman, or try to get a woman to drink more

and try to holla

10/21/2005 10:21:48 AM

agreed. but is either side more at fault?

i mean how many sloshed girls have you seen flirting trying to find a ride home.

10/21/2005 10:27:15 AM

not nearly as many girls as I've seen sketchy guys trying to pull some sketchy ass shit...

10/21/2005 10:31:14 AM

Quote :

" pull some sketchy ass "

10/21/2005 10:33:10 AM

hell yeah. but if the girls werent drinking/drunk, do you thing it would encourage or discourage sketchy behavoir in guys?

10/21/2005 10:34:03 AM

Quote :

"many men will see a overly intoxicated woman, or try to get a woman to drink more"

so. what does that have to do with anything.

the law still holds the man legally responsible for his consent while drunk, while the woman is viewed as incapable of consenting.

that only leaves one conclusion - in the eyes of the law, a woman's impulse control is inferior to a man's.

i disagree with the law

10/21/2005 10:36:36 AM

Quote :

"How can any guy girl with any self-respect, dignity or decency do ANYTHING to a girl that is causes her to be passed out or not participating?"

too bad half of all girls dont have any self-respect, dignity or decency



[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 10:39 AM. Reason : -]

10/21/2005 10:39:16 AM

Quote :

"isn't it even a little bit sexist against women to say that in the situation where both the girl and the guy are intoxicated, the guy is held responsible for his decision to consent, but the woman has less ability to control her impulses and is therefore legally incapable of consenting "

the law doesn't say that...the law says

Quote :

"Who is mentally disabled, mentally incapacitated, or physically helpless, and the person performing the act knows or should reasonably know that the other person is mentally disabled, mentally incapacitated, or physically helpless.""

if he was also drunk, that will more than likely be the defense's case here...that he also could not REASONABLY know that she was mentally incapacitated at the the time

10/21/2005 10:39:52 AM

oh ok.

he should make a counter-claim of rape then also.

Quote :

"he can't...men can't be raped in NC."

THEN WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ELKAYBIE

that only leaves one conclusion - in the eyes of the law, a woman's impulse control is inferior to a man's.

i disagree with the law


[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 10:46 AM. Reason : S]

10/21/2005 10:42:58 AM

he should just say that now, he wishes he raped her

10/21/2005 10:43:43 AM

he can't...men can't be raped in NC. that's the only double standard about the law...women can claim rape but men can't.

10/21/2005 10:43:57 AM

yeah thats the ONLY one

10/21/2005 10:44:54 AM

he could at least charge her with sexual assault or improper conduct or something, if not rape.

10/21/2005 10:47:35 AM

he could charge her with defrauding an innkeeper or some shit

10/21/2005 10:56:06 AM

Quote :

"THEN WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT ELKAYBIE"

i'm just interpretting the law the way i see it written...i don't know why it was written the way it was and why men can't be raped. i'm not saying you disagreeing with the law is right or wrong, i'm just doing what i do for a living and that's interpret the law the way it was written.

10/21/2005 10:56:59 AM

Quote :

"§ 14-110. Defrauding innkeeper or campground owner. No person shall, with intent to defraud, obtain food, lodging, or other accommodations at a hotel, inn, boardinghouse, eating house, or campground. Whoever violates this section shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Obtaining such lodging, food, or other accommodation by false pretense, or by false or fictitious show of pretense of baggage or other property, or absconding without paying or offering to pay therefor, or surreptitiously removing or attempting to remove such baggage, shall be prima facie evidence of such fraudulent intent, but this section shall not apply where there has been an agreement in writing for delay in such payment. "

10/21/2005 10:58:20 AM

lol that would be hilarious

10/21/2005 11:03:01 AM

^^so the solution is, always go back to her place...

and leave her $20 when you leave in the morning for rent...

[Edited on October 21, 2005 at 11:03 AM. Reason : ^^]

10/21/2005 11:03:27 AM