Quote :

"BoonePage 7 and people are still trying to assert the fallacy that all poor people are poor because they're lazier than rich people."

Page 7 and people still are suggesting that the rich don't deserve what they have. Page 7 and people are still unable to understand that freedom comes with responsibilty. Page 7 and people still have the idea that government assistance for more people is a great idea. Page 7 and people still have not understood that the individual not the state is primary. Page 7 and still no one has seriously taken account of how government assistance has crippled the communities it set out to help.

3/7/2007 9:41:27 PM

Quote :

"GoldenViper: Maybe subsidized daycare would increase the birth rate. France seems to think so:"

They obviously did a lot more than just provide subsidized daycare.

I just can't buy into this notion that people are like, "I'm having another baby to get more money from the government!!" or, "Free daycare? Oooeee! Bring on the gang bang cause I'm gettin pregnant tonight!!!" Perhaps folks are arguing that this happens unconsciously? But it really doesn't. Not all impoverished people have large families, of course. Most of the ones that do aren't exactly loving it. However, I imagine there are people out there who value a big family, no matter how difficult the circumstances become, and they'll have large families, with or without these so-called incentives.

3/7/2007 10:02:08 PM

Quote :

"mathman: Page 7 and people still are suggesting that the rich don't deserve what they have."

Some of them don't.

Quote :

"mathman: Page 7 and people are still unable to understand that freedom comes with responsibilty."

I understand that.

Quote :

"mathman: Page 7 and people still have the idea that government assistance for more people is a great idea."

The only thing I've talked about is public daycare and pre-school.

And, yes, I think it's a good idea.

Quote :

"mathman: Page 7 and people still have not understood that the individual not the state is primary."

I understand that.

Quote :

"mathman: Page 7 and still no one has seriously taken account of how government assistance has crippled the communities it set out to help."

I have thoughts on this, but I'm interested in your take on it.

[Edited on March 7, 2007 at 10:12 PM. Reason : sss]

3/7/2007 10:11:41 PM

Quote :

"But I've had a moment to think about it, and here goes...your idea will not work, and my evidence is in history. These currently economically depressed towns became towns exactly the way you're describing. Because we had such cheap labor available, businesses came down here and built manufacturing plants and the like, and people had jobs (WOO HOO!). And the workers did their part; they worked hard for thirty or forty years...only to be laid off with no pension because the plants shut down and left the towns to rot. So, in the long-run, your plan's a loser. "

Economic activity occurs in cycles. You had a depressed poor town, business moved in, town picked up, wages outpaced the ammount businesses were willing to pay, wages go back down. The problem being pointed to is that minimum wage doesn't allow the prices to go down far enough for the cycle to kick back in. Imagine trying to ride your bike if you couldn't push a pedal down to the bottom of the cycle before bringing it back up.

Quote :

"And I think you know all this so I'm kinda disappointed that you would suggest eliminating the minimum wage and allowing businesses to come milk some cheap labor out of folks and then run off again. It just seems wrong to me."

Consumers do it to businesses all the time. They shop someplace for the cheap prices until the business is big enough and bulky enough that overhead and inefficiencies and other issues drive prices up, and then they jump ship to other lower priced stores. It's all a cycle. Consumers want the most things for the least money and businesses want the most profit for the least expense. The end result is continual races to the bottom, and every time the bottom is reached, someone will get screwed.

Quote :

"You're no better, and you haven't worked as hard as the average poor 20 year-old. You're typing on the internets during the most responsibility-free time of life (college), pretending that you're somehow less-lazy than someone working 40+ hours a week while raising a family. "

You know what happens when you assume....

Quote :

"IN AN IDEAL WORLD, MOTHERS AND THEIR CHILDREN SHOULD BE MADE TO SUFFER FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES FOR THEIR MISTAKES! "

Hardly, but they should be made to face the consequences and the results of such mistakes.

Quote :

"Don’t compare people to businesses. If we were to do that, we might come to the conclusion that some folks should “shut down” (kill themselves). "

The basic idea is the same. But in the case of a person, shut down doesn't mean kill themselves, it means to completely overhaul your life and change everything. For our single mother, moving back home with her parents, seeking a new (and better paying job) and dropping as many expenses as she can would be the equivilent of a business shutting down.

Quote :

"How much did the average American get back in the last round of tax cuts? Was it $200? And how much did the top earners get back? Hmmm… "

This has been discussed in other threads but: How much did the top earners pay in? Now what percentage of pay in did the average american get back compared to the top earner? What percentage of their income did they get back? Or to put it simply, if you paid $100 and I paid $1,000, if you get back 10% you get $10, if I get back 2%, I get back $20. I got back a much smaller percentage than you, but still got an absolute ammount of double your refund.

Quote :

"I disagree. "

Why? Why should a beggar, a mechanic, a doctor, a teacher, a cop and a taco bell cashier all be able to afford the same life style? And are you willing to pay the price it will cost for your big mac when the guy behind the counter is making doctors wages?

Quote :

"I don’t know if she’s still having sex; she doesn’t appear to have any time for it. But I budgeted for condoms just in case. I’d prefer oral contraceptives, as well. We’ve been through the “other resources” deal, and come to the conclusion that not everybody has family/friends they can rely on. The idea about finding another single mother to live with is an excellent one!!! "

As I said, without having attempted the other resources, she's still hitting on 20. Or more accurately, she's staying on 16 and wondering why the house is always winning.

Quote :

"And I’ll continue to rail on it. With the incentives Google got, you’d think they’d be employing thousands, not just the hundreds they’ve promised. They’re going to pack up and leave once the incentivized period is up. "

Such is the problem when the only incentive your town has to attract businesses is tax money.

Quote :

"He said that not even a single childless woman could make it alone. That’s not a reality of life so I assume he’s making some statement on how we need to feel connected. "

In a very litteral sense it is reality. We rely on other people all the time, it's what allows us all to survive without each having to kill our own squirrels.

Quote :

"No. Women entered the work force because the cost of living went up, not the other way around. I’ve heard arguments that connect the increase in cost of living with the Vietnam War and other factors."

Without having done more research, I'm not going to argue this point.

Quote :

"Yes, more taxes. "

Which will only hurt the poor even more. Your poor mother loses well over $100 per paycheck into taxes and you want to take more out, so that she can have free internet that she may not even have the computer to use.

Quote :

"You do realize that most pregnancies are unplanned? "

Irellevant, economic consequences are one of the reasons people do not desire to have kids.

Quote :

"No free electricity or water or anything like that. "

I think our poor would bennefit much more from such things.

Quote :

"When I spoke to my sister (accountant) about my budget project, she listed off all these things I could do to save money, and I was like, "Say what?" That information is right there on the internet, and we could pump it straight into people's homes, and I think that's awesome."

You would have to restrict the free internet to government/information sites only. Elsewise, as you say, people would use it for entertainment.

3/7/2007 10:20:38 PM

Quote :

"Page 7 and people still are suggesting that the rich don't deserve what they have."

Did you intend to post this at the top of page 8?

Quote :

"Which will only hurt the poor even more."

Well, that depends on who is paying, now doesn't it? Progressive taxes FTW.

3/7/2007 10:39:45 PM

Quote :

"Economic activity occurs in cycles. You had a depressed poor town, business moved in, town picked up, wages outpaced the ammount businesses were willing to pay, wages go back down. The problem being pointed to is that minimum wage doesn't allow the prices to go down far enough for the cycle to kick back in. Imagine trying to ride your bike if you couldn't push a pedal down to the bottom of the cycle before bringing it back up."

Bullshit. Businesses found even cheaper labor and bailed.

Quote :

"The basic idea is the same. But in the case of a person, shut down doesn't mean kill themselves, it means to completely overhaul your life and change everything. For our single mother, moving back home with her parents, seeking a new (and better paying job) and dropping as many expenses as she can would be the equivilent of a business shutting down."

Don't compare people to businesses. Find another way to express yourself and communicate your ideas.

Quote :

"This has been discussed in other threads but: How much did the top earners pay in? Now what percentage of pay in did the average american get back compared to the top earner? What percentage of their income did they get back? Or to put it simply, if you paid $100 and I paid $1,000, if you get back 10% you get $10, if I get back 2%, I get back $20. I got back a much smaller percentage than you, but still got an absolute ammount of double your refund."

Blah, blah, blah...the "average" American got a couple hundred bucks, and rich people got back thousands. So your whole argument that the lower/middle class benefit the most from cutting government programs cause they get tax cuts is bullshit. The tax cuts may mean a significant amount of money for the middle earners in theory, but somehow, it never seems to work out that way. And poor people don't pay much in taxes anyway so tax cuts only affect them in that, when there are cuts, they lose programs.

And I don't give a shit that a few thousand dollars ain't shit to some rich people. It is shit to lower/middle class folks, and they don't see anywhere near that number when it comes to tax cuts.

Quote :

"Why? Why should a beggar, a mechanic, a doctor, a teacher, a cop and a taco bell cashier all be able to afford the same life style? And are you willing to pay the price it will cost for your big mac when the guy behind the counter is making doctors wages?"

Did I say that? I'm talking about being able to afford a one bedroom apartment and have a good place for their kids to stay while they're at work.

Quote :

"As I said, without having attempted the other resources, she's still hitting on 20. Or more accurately, she's staying on 16 and wondering why the house is always winning."

We've been over this. Maybe she has done those things. We don't know. I agree that finding a housemate is a great idea.

Quote :

"In a very litteral sense it is reality. We rely on other people all the time, it's what allows us all to survive without each having to kill our own squirrels."

I get it now.

Quote :

"Which will only hurt the poor even more. Your poor mother loses well over $100 per paycheck into taxes and you want to take more out, so that she can have free internet that she may not even have the computer to use."

Who said anything about taxing the poor?

Quote :

"I think our poor would bennefit much more from such things."

See, I'm not concerned about internet providers. I really don't care if they're private or public. They could develop some super duper duper high speed internet and provide that privately if they wanted to. But I don't know much about electricity/water.

Quote :

"You would have to restrict the free internet to government/information sites only. Elsewise, as you say, people would use it for entertainment."

What's wrong with them using it for entertainment?

3/7/2007 10:52:19 PM

Just curious, you guys will all deny unemployment checks when you're laid off, right?

I mean, you're seemingly against temporary economic safety nets. And after all, it's your fault if you're laid off, and what motivation do you have to work when you're receiving a check from the government?

[Edited on March 7, 2007 at 11:12 PM. Reason : .]

3/7/2007 11:11:27 PM

Quote :

"Running a company into the ground and jumping out the top floor with a golden parachute is unacceptable."

What the hell kind of comment is this?

Back to your wage gap issue, are you pissed people became educated and worked hard to better themselves which resulted in this gap?

3/7/2007 11:17:58 PM

Will any of you acknowledge the fact that they're arguing against a strawman? Since 1996 welfare is temporary assistance for needy families. You get help, you get a job, you get off welfare. Unless an individual state decides it wants to spent its money prolonging things, that's it.

We aren't creating a culture of dependency!

3/7/2007 11:34:46 PM

Quote :

"But I've had a moment to think about it, and here goes...your idea will not work, and my evidence is in history. These currently economically depressed towns became towns exactly the way you're describing. Because we had such cheap labor available, businesses came down here and built manufacturing plants and the like, and people had jobs (WOO HOO!). And the workers did their part; they worked hard for thirty or forty years...only to be laid off with no pension because the plants shut down and left the towns to rot. So, in the long-run, your plan's a loser."

It is a continuous process. In a free economy there are always winners and losers, it is bound to turn out that all your employment possibilities happened to be losers. If it happens again, say 40 years later, then wages will fall again and employers will again be brought back. IE: it will keep them employed forever, as long as they incist on living in this area employers will come to take advantage of their labor.

Of course, someone capable of doing manufacturing work (highschool diploma) can afford to move to a new job elsewhere. I am talking about smaller scale work which do not exist in our society because of such laws as the minimum wage.

And you must remember that a dollar is not worth the same amount everywhere and to everyone. In a city where the average wage has dropped by half, for example, most prices will also drop. For example, most services we consume are produced locally and therefore at the local wage. So, if unemployment drives the average wage down to, say, $4 from $6 then the average price of a haircut should drop from $12 to $8. This also applies to most goods as almost half the price in the grocery store consists of local labor for stockers, cashiers, managers, and construction.

So, as you can imagine, a deeply depressed area will have very low wages and low prices, but the same minimum wage as a wealthy area with higher wages and higher prices.

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 1:17 AM. Reason : .,.]

3/8/2007 1:11:53 AM

Quote :

"people are still trying to assert the fallacy that all poor people are poor because they're lazier than rich people."

how the fuck are you even attempting to conclude that from the thread so far? have you read any of the thread or did you just read the title and jump in with your emotions headfirst so you could bash all the people who oppose paying their own hard-earned wages to taxes that benefit people who dont do much to support themselves

and before you call me out for claiming that there are people who dont do much to support themselves, first read the thread....then proceed with your liberally biased bullshit

Quote :

"The reason why I suggest free internet is because of what a valuable resource it is and how cheap it would be to provide it to everyone once we got it set up. "

BridgetSPK I completely agree that the Internet should probably be free because of the informational/educational aspect...but aside from promoting free Internet, what do you actually say to defend free daycare as something worthwhile to society like the Internet? And how are something like free daycare and free air conditioning so different? Obviously one is HVAC and one is daycare...but how are they so different as far as whether or not the public should pay for them? Is daycare a necessity? I went to preschool but I know plenty of people who didnt...is daycare, to you, as important and NECESSARY as something like the Internet? Also:

Quote :

"We talked a little bit about this earlier in the thread. I need to make it clear that our job was to prepare a budget, not pick apart her life."

Well I just want to make sure YOU are clear that some of her past actions could be very significant in determining her current situation

Quote :

"The father(s) (We don't know if it's one or two.) is/are not in the picture and not paying child support. She moved down with her boyfriend for his job so, at one point, I assume he had a decent job and would be someone with the ability to pay. But maybe he went crazy and lives at a nudist community in Washington state freezing his balls off--we don't know.[/b]"

Bridget...don't you think its important to mention that the fathers are gone? I mean the vast VAST majority of families get by...doesnt mean they are rich, but they make do...and you are trying to somewhat ignore that the FATHERS of the children are nowhere to be found yet its the government's responsibility to provide care for the children? Its not the father's responsibility?

Quote :

"And child support is not cure-all. Men are often ordered to pay based on what they earn; so there are men out there that are ordered to pay just $100/month or something like that. At the same time, there are men sleeping in their cars to make child support payments. The system is shaky."

Yet when you dont get ANY child support due to the husband's negligence, you think the govt should just take the tab

Quote :

"Just curious, you guys will all deny unemployment checks when you're laid off, right? I mean, you're seemingly against temporary economic safety nets. And after all, it's your fault if you're laid off, and what motivation do you have to work when you're receiving a check from the government? "

If you're laid off, its going to be because you're not capable of doing your job efficiently enough so you deserve it

Quote :

"Since 1996 welfare is temporary assistance for needy families. You get help, you get a job, you get off welfare."

oh yeah...temporary assistance...because most people on welfare get a job and get off welfare...this genius sure has his numbers right

3/8/2007 1:38:01 AM

Quote :

"If you're laid off, its going to be because you're not capable of doing your job efficiently enough so you deserve it"

This is why economists will never - ever - be able to connect with normal folk.

3/8/2007 1:59:56 AM

Ok there are plenty of situations where overall corporate profit losses cause corporations to downsize and fire tons of people

however for the majority of small to medium size businesses that i would imagine most of us work/wil work at, your job status is based on your performance...just because there are downsizing situations that occur, USUALLY involving labor that can be either cheaply outsourced or robotosized/computerized, doesnt mean that there arent a ton of people who get fired because they dont perform their job expectations

I look at it like this...if you do your job well, you wont be fired...if you do your job well and you are fired because of circumstances out of your control, then you are qualified to work a certain job and can get another job and you just have to deal with your previous company having much bigger problems...so whats the problem with this assessment?

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 2:03 AM. Reason : .]

3/8/2007 2:02:19 AM

Quote :

"oh yeah...temporary assistance...because most people on welfare get a job and get off welfare...this genius sure has his numbers right "

hold up

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 2:03 AM. Reason : .]

3/8/2007 2:03:06 AM

Boone...there are people who legitimately need govt assistance...there are also people who exploit it...please keep in mind that thats my perspective before you proceed

also please acknowledge my intentional attempt to be non biased in my last post just to get my point across since my point is not political although plenty will dismiss anything i say simply based on their opinions of me based on other topics/threads

^also when you are addressing my claim, please keep in mind how one-sided your argument was

Quote :

"You get help, you get a job, you get off welfare."

As if everyone on welfare gets a job and gets off welfare?

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 2:08 AM. Reason : .]

3/8/2007 2:04:57 AM

Quote :

"if you do your job well and you are fired because of circumstances out of your control, then you are qualified to work a certain job and can get another job and you just have to deal with your previous company having much bigger problems...so whats the problem with this assessment?"

It can help people between jobs. For example, my dad was on unemployment for a little while. He has a job again now.

Of course, it only helped uphold our bourgeois lifestyle in this case, so it's not an example of t3h g0v helping the poor.

3/8/2007 2:10:45 AM

its cool that your dad and plenty of other people have gotten help between jobs...but there are still plenty of other people who exploit the system and collect their govt assistance while having other income

3/8/2007 2:14:22 AM

Quote :

"Nationally, about 231,000 families have reached either the federal time limit or a shorter state time limit. At least 93,000 families have had their case closed at a time limit, and approximately 38,000 have had their benefits reduced."

Quote :

"Most states have found that a very small proportion of recipients reach the time limit after 60 months of continuous benefit receipt. There are several reasons for this pattern. Even before the recent reforms, most people who received welfare did not remain on the rolls continuously for long periods. The strong economy, expanded financial supports for low-income working families, and enhanced state welfare-to-work programs increased the number of families who exited welfare in the 1990s. In addition, some states have shorter state time limits and/or have imposed large numbers of sanctions that closed the cases of recipients who were deemed noncompliant with work requirements"

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/opre/welfare_employ/approach_tlimits/reports/welfare_timelimits/welfare_tl_exesum.html

3/8/2007 2:16:58 AM

permanent welfare=disability

Brid, you dont think people get pregnant to get more money from the govt? That ALL some people do to get money. In fact they pay a disability if they claim thier kid is ADD, which strangly enough they all are..no money never factors in.

3/8/2007 9:08:02 AM

Quote :

"David0603: What the hell kind of comment is this? Back to your wage gap issue, are you pissed people became educated and worked hard to better themselves which resulted in this gap?"

Yeah, I'm so angry that people work hard!!

I didn't say I was pissed, kid. I said the wage gap concerns me.

And I won't be talking about this topic anymore. We can meet in another thread.

^^Thanks for bringing the stats! I've only got the one.

3/8/2007 9:23:30 AM

Why do you think CEOs are

Quote :

"Running a company into the ground and jumping out the top floor with a golden parachute"

3/8/2007 9:25:24 AM

I won't be talking about that anymore.

Today, I'm really trying to stay focused on what I originally posted for (the characterization of poor/impoverished people).

So unless you wanna argue that poor people are poor because they're lazy, irresponsible, and promiscuous, then we don't really have much to say to one another.

Do you understand?

3/8/2007 9:34:14 AM

boone can you show me the stats for disability during that time? Thanks man

3/8/2007 9:34:25 AM

Ok, fine. A lot of poor people are poor because they're lazy, irresponsible, and promiscuous.

3/8/2007 9:39:26 AM

^^Look 'em up yourself.

Seriously, he's the only one who's provided anything meaningful to this thread. And he's not your stats bitch. (I posted for hours yesterday, and I'm willing to admit I didn't do much for this thread. We had fun though.)

^AHA

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 9:42 AM. Reason : sss]

3/8/2007 9:40:32 AM

Think about it.

What is the secretary wasn't lazy and decided to go to college?

What is the secretary wasn't irresponsible and got knocked up....twice?

3/8/2007 9:45:34 AM

brid, Im at work and have already seen a 22 year old on disability bc of back problems. 22, amazing her back held up to have 2 kids.

From a disabilty study in 1997

"During the last decade, SSDI and SSI have experienced unprecedented growth. Between 1989 and 1995, the number of working-age people receiving SSDI benefits rose from about 2.9 million to nearly 4.2 million, an increase of 45 percent. Likewise, the increase in the number of working-age people receiving SSI disability benefits grew from about 2.1 million to about 3.4 million, an increase of nearly 62 percent (SSA, 1996 a, b). "

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/006841.html

Disability facts. 18% of population on disabilty
11% of children from 6-14 are on disability
median earnings for those receiving disability? 22k


I think you have people using thier welfare, unemployment and then moving into disability. I also think that if you keep having children they keep paying you welfare. Im not 100% on that. I know i see alot of young people on disability and thier kids all have ADD..of course on mediciad.

3/8/2007 10:14:37 AM

Quote :

"What is the secretary wasn't lazy and decided to go to college?"

Because it's lazy to work a job.

I go back and forth on this issue of college. It looks like everyone needs some sort of college these days. I had a friend whose parents seemed super wealthy--they had a beach house, an Infiniti, a BMW Z3, a boat, etc...and I always assumed she was of the same "class" as me. Then when it came time to apply for college, she didn't. And that's when I put it together that her parents didn't go to college, and they'd earned a fine living for themselves, and they didn't see why it should be any different for her. This girl was also not particularly good at school and taking what I considered to be remedial courses so I suspect she never heard from any school guidance counselor about what her options were. Guidance counselors can really suck--I want to be one just so I can do things right: not act like my job is done if a kid isn't going to college, not attempt to steer girls/boys into different careers, etc...

Anyway, CFNC has those commercials now that show the kids from different walks of life, talking about their lives. And then at the end it has all of them saying, "I AM going to college." This commercial annoys the fuck out of me, but it's necessary. People still have this notion that college isn't for them. Just getting kids a high school diploma is considered a major success, and it is a big deal, but then what...? And what would happen if everybody had a two/four year degree from college?

Quote :

"What is the secretary wasn't irresponsible and got knocked up....twice?"

Most pregnancies are unplanned.

3/8/2007 10:31:55 AM

Quote :

"Most pregnancies are unplanned."

I really dont know if thats true or not, but I do know there are preventative measures you can take to not get pregnant if you actually feel responsible for your own actions

3/8/2007 10:33:58 AM

^^^Dude, those are just stats on how many people with a disability there are in the country. It doesn't say they're receiving any money from the government.

^You're right.

So, should the children be punished? Did the children get their mother pregnant?

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 10:51 AM. Reason : ?]

3/8/2007 10:40:35 AM

Quote :

"Don't compare people to businesses. Find another way to express yourself and communicate your ideas. "

Why not? Fiscal responsibility is as important (perhaps even moreso) for people as it is for businesses. And many businesses are individuals or two people working together, and their incomes and lives very much are tied to their business. I think it's very appropriate.

Quote :

"Blah, blah, blah...the "average" American got a couple hundred bucks, and rich people got back thousands. So your whole argument that the lower/middle class benefit the most from cutting government programs cause they get tax cuts is bullshit. The tax cuts may mean a significant amount of money for the middle earners in theory, but somehow, it never seems to work out that way. And poor people don't pay much in taxes anyway so tax cuts only affect them in that, when there are cuts, they lose programs. "

So you admit you have no idea how the whole thing worked then? My point was very important. It was to show how when you give people back a share of what they've paid, the absolute value of that share is directly tied to what they paid.

And as for the poor not paying much in taxes, they may not pay it after refunds, but you can be damn sure they feel it every pay check. As of 2/16 of this year, I've paid $785 in taxes, at least $287 of which I can not get back on tax refunds and I am not elligeable to collect bennefits from the programs they paid into. And remember I make less than the single mom in this thread and support one other person. That's a lot of money to be losing each pay check.

Quote :

"And I don't give a shit that a few thousand dollars ain't shit to some rich people. It is shit to lower/middle class folks, and they don't see anywhere near that number when it comes to tax cuts. "

Right, but if they didn't pay in that much, do they deserve it back? By the end of the year, I'll have paid about $4,400 in taxes, about $2,000 of which would be in the pool for the federal government to give back to me (assuming that SS and medicare don't apply). Do I deserve $1,000 back? A 50% tax break just because that $1,000 means more to me than it does to your single mom, or to the family of four down the block?

Quote :

"Did I say that? I'm talking about being able to afford a one bedroom apartment and have a good place for their kids to stay while they're at work."

So then any person who works 40/hrs a week should be able to afford a one bedroom apartment and 2 kids? Again, the beggar should be able to do that if he begs for 40 hours a week? The taco bell cashier? What about the guy who collects bottles and cans for 40 / hrs a week, should he be able to afford a 1 bedroom apartment and support 2 kids?

Quote :

"We've been over this. Maybe she has done those things. We don't know. I agree that finding a housemate is a great idea. "

And until we know, we can't say she's someone that deserves or needs government aid.

Quote :

"Who said anything about taxing the poor? "

Class warfare encourages the high wage earners to dodge their taxes.

Quote :

"What's wrong with them using it for entertainment?"

The same thing that would be wrong with providing free cable TV to all because they could learn something from the discovery channel.

Quote :

"Just curious, you guys will all deny unemployment checks when you're laid off, right?"

Personally I did, but thanks for trying. Also, if life is so bleak and impossible as the pictures being painted here, it would be extremely stupid not to take advantage of the bennefits offered as long as they are availible, regarless of your political stance. That is, my objection is to the existance of the programs, not using said programs, if you pay for it, you might as well use it.

Quote :

""Nationally, about 231,000 families have reached either the federal time limit or a shorter state time limit. At least 93,000 families have had their case closed at a time limit, and approximately 38,000 have had their benefits reduced.""

So you attempt to demonstrate that welfare is temporary by stating that of the 231,000 families that have already reached their limits on welfare, only 40% have been removed from the system?

Quote :

" Just getting kids a high school diploma is considered a major success, and it is a big deal, but then what...? And what would happen if everybody had a two/four year degree from college?"

The same thing that's happening now, 4 year degrees take 5 years to complete, and when you're done, instead of a good professional high paying job, you're working at starbucks for $7 / hour. The difference between you and the guy who didn't go to college is, he's got 5 years work history and experience on you (and presumeably pay raises) and he's not thousands of dollars in debt. Sure a college degree will improve your chances of getting a better job, but it's not the guarantee it once was. When everyone has a BS, you're no different from everyone else.

Quote :

"Most pregnancies are unplanned."

But how many second pregnancies are unplanned? Also unintended != unplanned.

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 10:51 AM. Reason : sfd]

3/8/2007 10:44:53 AM

Quote :

"So, should the children be punished? Did the children get their mother pregnant? "

Should you and I be punished through taxation? Did WE get the mother pregnant?

3/8/2007 10:52:30 AM

Quote :

"Because it's lazy to work a job."

Yes, it is lazy to say "I'm not going to go to college to become more educated and better myself, instead I'm going to become a secretary and do tasks a 15 year old hs kid could do and get paid crap"

3/8/2007 10:58:48 AM

Quote :

"So you admit you have no idea how the whole thing worked then? My point was very important. It was to show how when you give people back a share of what they've paid, the absolute value of that share is directly tied to what they paid."

It doesn't have to be. Why not cut taxes on the middle and lower classes even more than what they did and not cut taxes on the wealthy?

(I wouldn't have cut taxes at all. But then again I'm not trying to find ways to give money back to rich people.)

Quote :

"And as for the poor not paying much in taxes, they may not pay it after refunds, but you can be damn sure they feel it every pay check. As of 2/16 of this year, I've paid $785 in taxes, at least $287 of which I can not get back on tax refunds and I am not elligeable to collect bennefits from the programs they paid into. And remember I make less than the single mom in this thread and support one other person. That's a lot of money to be losing each pay check."

Hey, let's cut your taxes and raise taxes on the wealthy.

I'm down.

Quote :

"Right, but if they didn't pay in that much, do they deserve it back? By the end of the year, I'll have paid about $4,400 in taxes, about $2,000 of which would be in the pool for the federal government to give back to me (assuming that SS and medicare don't apply). Do I deserve $1,000 back? A 50% tax break just because that $1,000 means more to me than it does to your single mom, or to the family of four down the block?"

If you're gonna cut taxes, cut taxes on the lower and middle class, and to make up for the taxes lost from the gigantic middle class, raise taxes on the rich.

Quote :

"The same thing that's happening now, 4 year degrees take 5 years to complete, and when you're done, instead of a good professional high paying job, you're working at starbucks for $7 / hour. The difference between you and the guy who didn't go to college is, he's got 5 years work history and experience on you (and presumeably pay raises) and he's not thousands of dollars in debt. Sure a college degree will improve your chances of getting a better job, but it's not the guarantee it once was. When everyone has a BS, you're no different from everyone else."

Are you talking about me? I'm well aware that an undergraduate degree isn't going to set me apart from the rest of the work force. Actually, there are three other people in my immediate family, and they have five graduate degrees between them so maybe my lonely undergraduate degree will make me a stand-out!

Quote :

"TreeTwista10: Should you and I be punished through taxation? Did WE get the mother pregnant?"

Do you want a poor kid breaking into your home in the middle of the night to steal food, cash, and valuables? Cause if we don't help support the kid, he'll have no other options--charities simply cannot do it all alone. And once he gets busted for breaking and entering, he's gonna get sent to prison. Of course, you wouldn't have any problem paying taxes to house him in prison, would you? Even though you actually end up paying more that way.

3/8/2007 11:14:55 AM

Quote :

"Yes, it is lazy to say "I'm not going to go to college to become more educated and better myself, instead I'm going to become a secretary and do tasks a 15 year old hs kid could do and get paid crap""

Most people don't go to go college for an education or to better themselves.

If you don't believe me, take a look in the mirror.

3/8/2007 11:16:31 AM

Quote :

"Do you want a poor kid breaking into your home in the middle of the night to steal food, cash, and valuables? Cause if we don't help support the kid, he'll have no other options"

He might get a couple jacketed hollow points in his legs...but why can't he just sell drugs or something...OR I DUNNO WHY CANT HE JUST GO TO SCHOOL AND STUDY HARD SO HE CAN MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR HIS OWN FAMILY...oh yeah, he doesnt have any other options...he cant go to public school and get a job, he will be forced to pull b&e's

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 11:18 AM. Reason : .]

3/8/2007 11:18:08 AM

"Most people don't go to go college for an education or to better themselves"

LOL, bc most high paying jobs require that you graduated high school only. I know I could make as much money as i do now if i skipped 8 years of college and pumped gas instead.

Good point tree, she seems to ignore the fact that WE have to pay for her mistake.

3/8/2007 11:23:18 AM

and more worriedly, she seems to ignore the fact that her children can go to school and gets jobs and are not forced to breaking and entering as their "only option"

interesting that bridget slammed some of rally's stereotypes about poor people and crime, yet now she is saying the kids' ONLY OPTION will be to rob and steal

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 11:25 AM. Reason : .]

3/8/2007 11:24:30 AM

Quote :

"Do you want a poor kid breaking into your home in the middle of the night to steal food"

Ahahahahahaha. I always hate it when that happens.

Quote :

"Most people don't go to go college for an education or to better themselves. If you don't believe me, take a look in the mirror."

WTF? I went to college to learn how to become a software engineer. Now, I am a software engineer. Even if I had these same skills before I got my degree, there is no way I could have gotten my current job without that piece of paper or without the contacts I gained during my years at NCSU.

3/8/2007 11:32:19 AM

Quote :

"He might get a couple jacketed hollow points in his legs...but why can't he just sell drugs or something...OR I DUNNO WHY CANT HE JUST GO TO SCHOOL AND STUDY HARD SO HE CAN MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR HIS OWN FAMILY...oh yeah, he doesnt have any other options...he cant go to public school and get a job, he will be forced to pull b&e's"

I'm talking about children breaking into your home and going to juvie and being turned in to career criminals.

Quote :

"interesting that bridget slammed some of rally's stereotypes about poor people and crime, yet now she is saying the kids' ONLY OPTION will be to rob and steal"

After all, they need to eat. And in the absense of assistance, charities can only do so much. And more kids than do now will fall through the cracks.

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 11:36 AM. Reason : sss]

3/8/2007 11:34:36 AM

^Bridget how come instead of breaking into homes he cant go to school, and then when he turns 16 or whatever, get a job of his own? Why the fuck is that not a possibility?

3/8/2007 11:36:05 AM

^And before he's 16?

What I'm trying to drive home her is that assistance is largely for the children.

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 11:38 AM. Reason : sss]

3/8/2007 11:37:58 AM

Quote :

"WTF? I went to college to learn how to become a software engineer. Now, I am a software engineer. Even if I had these same skills before I got my degree, there is no way I could have gotten my current job without that piece of paper or without the contacts I gained during my years at NCSU."

That's my point. You went to college to get "that piece of paper."

You didn't go to college to educate yourself and become a better person.

3/8/2007 11:39:45 AM

Quote :

"And before he's 16?"

the fact that you have some conception that all poor kids are FORCED into a life of crime makes attempting to debate this with you pretty impossible

first off you can feed yourself and 2 kids off $25k / year

you might eat Ramen Noodles a lot but you're not gonna die of starvation...hell there are homeless people who have been homeless for years who havent died of starvation...are they all breaking into peoples houses?

3/8/2007 11:40:15 AM

Quote :

"That's my point. You went to college to get "that piece of paper." You didn't go to college to educate yourself"

I did go to college to educate myself. I could not do my job without the information and experience I gained during the 4 years I was at college.

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 11:43 AM. Reason : ]

3/8/2007 11:43:16 AM

maybe the lady that bridget knows should go to college for that piece of paper

3/8/2007 11:44:23 AM

Quote :

"Ahahahahahaha. I always hate it when that happens."

You're right. Poverty is isolated. So desperate poor people tend to commit crimes against their neighbors. They'll go to prison either way, and you will foot the bill for that.

On the topic of extreme poverty, we're A-OK isolating them in crime-ridden neighborhoods to rot and spending billions of dollars to lock them up when they try to better themselves with the means they have available...but free daycare and pre-school, money for food?!?! THAT'S NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!!

Quote :

"the fact that you have some conception that all poor kids are FORCED into a life of crime makes attempting to debate this with you pretty impossible first off you can feed yourself and 2 kids off $25k / year you might eat Ramen Noodles a lot but you're not gonna die of starvation...hell there are homeless people who have been homeless for years who havent died of starvation...are they all breaking into peoples houses?"

I'm talking about a different kind of poverty, not my secretary lady. A lot of those homeless people you see get assistance, and yes, a lot of them do starve.

[Edited on March 8, 2007 at 11:49 AM. Reason : sss]

3/8/2007 11:45:36 AM

oh bridget if only you used logic to make decisions as much as you used emotional sway

3/8/2007 11:47:12 AM

Quote :

"It doesn't have to be. Why not cut taxes on the middle and lower classes even more than what they did and not cut taxes on the wealthy? "

See points about class warfare.

Quote :

"Hey, let's cut your taxes and raise taxes on the wealthy. I'm down."

See I intend to be wealthy (or at least well off) some day, so I have no interest at all in raising their taxes so that my income can go down as I earn more.

Quote :

"If you're gonna cut taxes, cut taxes on the lower and middle class, and to make up for the taxes lost from the gigantic middle class, raise taxes on the rich. "

You're avoiding the question: Do people deserve tax breaks on money they didn't pay in?

Quote :

"Are you talking about me? I'm well aware that an undergraduate degree isn't going to set me apart from the rest of the work force. Actually, there are three other people in my immediate family, and they have five graduate degrees between them so maybe my lonely undergraduate degree will make me a stand-out! "

I'm talking as a general rule.

Quote :

"Do you want a poor kid breaking into your home in the middle of the night to steal food, cash, and valuables? Cause if we don't help support the kid, he'll have no other options--charities simply cannot do it all alone. And once he gets busted for breaking and entering, he's gonna get sent to prison. Of course, you wouldn't have any problem paying taxes to house him in prison, would you? Even though you actually end up paying more that way."

Why would said poor kid need to be breaking into my home for food? Why isn't his mother providing him with food? And believe me, there are plenty of issues I have with how money is spent in prisons, but no, I would have no problems with my taxes being used to lock up CRIMINALS, that is what my taxes are for.

Quote :

"On the topic of extreme poverty, we're A-OK isolating them in crime-ridden neighborhoods to rot and spending billions of dollars to lock them up when they try to better themselves with the means they have available...but free daycare and pre-school, money for food?!?! THAT'S NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!!!"

Absolutely. It's not my responsibility to fix their lives. It is the government's responsibility to provide for the protection of it's citizens against criminals.

3/8/2007 11:59:16 AM

Quote :

"Why would said poor kid need to be breaking into my home for food?"

Said poor kid wouldn't.

Isn't obesity the #1 health concern for the poor?

3/8/2007 12:01:52 PM