^ Aren't you setting up a red herring? The Obama administration went from this. . .

Quote :

"'There's no thought to rescinding the invitations to Iranian diplomats,' State Department spokesman Ian Kelly told reporters."

. . .to this. . .

Quote :

"'Given the events of the last few days, those invitations will be no longer extended,' announced Press Secretary Robert Gibbs Wednesday."

. . .in about 48 hours! What "re-examination" took place during this period? And to query spöokyjon, just how much worse did the situation in Iran get in just a few hours?

In any event, one's core principles should be solid. It may seem hokey to you, but if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. In addition, the Obama administration seems to be suffering from paralysis by analysis.

But maybe you're just trolling. We shall see.

6/25/2009 9:18:47 AM

there's no red herring

all i did was point out your false dilemma

you may not understand the state department's decision

but that doesn't make it a flighty, unsupported, or otherwise poor one

shit, maybe the information that prompted the change of heart is CLASSIFIED TOP SECRET or something

but let's stay on topic here

are you saying that you believe principles shouldn't change

what if your principles are wrong

6/25/2009 9:28:31 AM

What's happened in the past 48 hours? I dunno, maybe it was Iran expelling the UK's diplomats and the UK responding tit-for-tat. The UK and Iran all but severing diplomatic relations over Iran's baseless claims of UK meddling is kind of a big deal.

6/25/2009 9:32:26 AM

And you see no pattern of "reversals," to put it mildly, on the part of the Obama administration?

6/25/2009 9:39:28 AM

you're right.
The rest of the world is standing still. The only thing that's changed in the world in the last 6 months is Obama's mind.

6/25/2009 9:41:52 AM

Did you hear about the time Obama asked for American Cheese on his burger only to change his mind to Cheddar?

OMG Flip-Flop!!!

6/25/2009 9:42:54 AM

You've really failed at life when you try to trump up the mind changing about the diplomats as a flip flop.

Is it not entirely likely that before the question was asked about the diplomats, the no one actually thought to give a shit about that topic and at the time it was asked, the answer really was "um, the invitation is still open, mainly because we haven't taken the time to decide if we want to rescind it"?

For fucks sake, were talking about hot dogs and hamburgers while people are protesting and dieing in the streets. Talk about vapid. I thought conservatives were better than this?

6/25/2009 9:47:57 AM

I heard he only did it to appease Vermont!

6/25/2009 9:50:05 AM

Okay, I see that a cloud of howling moonbats has decided to roost and doesn't want to face facts or have a rational discussion. The fact is that the Obama administration can't even make a decision about a fucking hot dog dinner and stick to it--deal with it.

6/25/2009 9:53:01 AM

A few folks question your assertion that changing your mind about something over the course of two days is somehow an inherently negative thing that indicates shaky principles or some shit, and you call them "howling moonbats."

Okay, if that's how you want it, I'm just going to call you a fucking tin-hat from now on and be done with it.

6/25/2009 9:55:18 AM

^^ so, you're saying now that he should invite the Iranians to the July 4th celebrations, because he did ask them several months ago?

His months old invitation should trump everything that's happened in the last 2 weeks?

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 9:56 AM. Reason : /]

6/25/2009 9:56:23 AM

^^^ ok now you are trying too hard to troll.

plus i would surprised any Iranians would be into HOTDOGS anyway.

TURKEY HOTDOGS! OMG FLIP FLOP

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 10:01 AM. Reason : hahah well guess blatant trolling works.]

6/25/2009 10:00:28 AM

This is classic hooksaw playbook

1) Rage over something stupid
2) Question anyone that doesnt share this view
3) grammar correction
4) logical fallacy
5) Owned by someone
6) claim moonbat
7) leave

6/25/2009 10:01:57 AM

^ you forgot to add a troll post or two to get people riled up.

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 10:03 AM. Reason : .]

6/25/2009 10:02:58 AM

US says hot dog diplomacy still on with Iran - 2 days ago

Quote :

"'There's no thought to rescinding the invitations to Iranian diplomats,' State Department spokesman Ian Kelly told reporters. 'We have made a strategic decision to engage on a number of fronts with Iran,' Kelly said. 'We tried many years of isolation, and we're pursuing a different path now.'"

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hMtZsaQT4cTxcgA51WrpiUS6cWGg

Hot Dog Diplomacy is nixed - 16 hours ago

Quote :

"'Given the events of the last few days, those invitations will be no longer extended,' announced Press Secretary Robert Gibbs Wednesday."

http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/06/24/hot-dog-diplomacy-is-nixed/

This is really self-evident, but I'll help some of you along--you obviously need it:

1. The State Department spokesman used the term "strategic decision." This implies a strategy, which in this case is referring to a long-term plan. The spokesman also took the opportunity to take a shot at the Bush administration, "We tried many years of isolation, and we're pursuing a different path now."

What happened to Obama's direct talks with Ahmadinejad?

2. Not two days later we hear, "Given the events of the last few days. . . ." What changed?

3. How is this not a reversal?

Please just answer the questions.

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 10:08 AM. Reason : .]

6/25/2009 10:07:37 AM

^ hahhahahahaha nice i wish i could find that post where someone just put blahblah in place of the words you post and only had the format of the post.

6/25/2009 10:10:26 AM

All this hot dog talk is kinda making me hungry. Anyone up for Five Guys today?

6/25/2009 10:13:55 AM

Quote :

"Please just answer the questions."

6/25/2009 10:15:15 AM

If Obama changes policy on something substantive like the Fairness Doctrine that would be a flip-flop.

this is not a flip-flop.

6/25/2009 10:17:29 AM

Do you know know the answers to those questions, or are you wondering what we think the answers are? BEcause the answers are pretty clear. Just listen to any of the Iranian talking heads that are on our side and youll know why they're doing that.

6/25/2009 10:18:27 AM

Quote :

"Please just answer the questions."

Yeah, I guess you're right--the hot dog dinner isn't news at all.

Iran's July 4 party invitation withdrawn

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/25/2607985.htm

US withdraws July 4 invitations to Iranian diplomats

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSN24232730

U.S. Retracts July 4 Invites It Gave Iran

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124587565694249541.html

No July 4th invite for Iranian diplomats

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0609/24173.html

U.S. withdraws 4 July invitations to Iranian diplomats

http://televisionwashington.com/floater_article1.aspx?lang=en&t=3&id=11569

Aaand so on.

6/25/2009 10:36:24 AM

I'm probably way out of place here and i've only read the last ~8 posts, but i'd rather have someone make decisions, and change them as necessary based on a turn of events than to have someone lay down a plan and follow it part by part regardless of what's happening elsewhere in the world.

I think everyone would agree with what i just said, but I thought i'd throw it out there.

6/25/2009 10:39:11 AM

^ Okay, answer these questions:

1. What happened to Obama's direct talks with Ahmadinejad?

2. Not two days later we hear, "Given the events of the last few days. . . ." What changed?

3. How is this not a reversal?

6/25/2009 10:40:36 AM

well, I can't say and i don't think anyone can really. We don't know what's being said in their conversations, and until actions are made (by either side) based on said conversation, i don't think the points of discussion should be released to the public.

6/25/2009 10:49:54 AM

Answer one then:

How is this not a reversal?

6/25/2009 10:53:44 AM

if we all hold hands and agree to use the word "reversal"

(which is much less loaded than "flip-flop" at any rate)

then will you explain why a reversal is apparently an inherently bad thing in your opinion

6/25/2009 11:03:26 AM

I already gave you a reason for the reversal hooksaw.

6/25/2009 11:04:14 AM

Quote :

"then will you explain why a reversal is apparently an inherently bad thing in your opinion"

I'll answer for him

No, I will not.

What I will do is act completely surprised about why you DON'T think this is a bad thing.

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 11:07 AM. Reason : .]

6/25/2009 11:05:14 AM

Quote :

"Answer one then: How is this not a reversal?"

It's a reversal if he changes his ideals/what he stands for.

it's another thing to adapt to an everchanging situation.

If you're working on a car, changing out your air freshener, and suddenly the engine catches on fire and flames shoot out from under the hood, an idiot will say "fuck that shit i told you guys i'm going to change out my air freshener so that's what i'm going to do god damnit".... everyone else will realize that priorities have changed and a more urgent matter has come to the table which must me addressed first.

Both people have the same goal, to improve the quality of their car, but it all comes down to management. You want to optimize/modify your action steps to efficiently reach your goal.

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 11:13 AM. Reason : ]

6/25/2009 11:13:35 AM

OMG, Obama's Iran policy is now the same as Bush's. Only one of them got heavily criticized for it.....

Sounds like Obama is finally realizing he was WRONG to begin with (even though most of you loonbats on here said he was not) on this issue and hes finally waking up. I'm happy about this flip flop for once.

6/25/2009 11:15:02 AM

Oh, no, I never said that.

See, it'd be one thing if hooksaw thought rescinding Iran's invitation was a bad idea and was actually interested in discussing the reasons and implications, but that's not the case. Instead, he just wanted something he could post in his thread cataloguing the administration's "flip-flops."

My actual opinion on our diplomatic policies is irrelevant, so I haven't brought it up. My issue in this thread is his contention that changing one's mind is such a bad move that you can discredit someone for doing it by chronicling every "flip-flop" (a disgustingly loaded word). That's lazy and stupid.

6/25/2009 11:15:44 AM

One reason that flip-flops are bad is that every position and promise has an asterisk beside it--nobody believes you. But don't believe me--believe Obama's own constituents:

The Left Rises Up Against Obama

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/white-house/the-left-rises-up-against-obam.html

The Obama flip-flops you don't know

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/23144.html

Obama's List of Flip-Flops Grows and Grows

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/erbe/2009/06/10/obamas-list-of-flip-flops-grows-and-grows.html

And on and on.

And why are "reversals" a good thing? You see how that works?

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 11:18 AM. Reason : ^ We can agree on this: "My actual opinion on our diplomatic policies is irrelevant. . . ." ]

6/25/2009 11:16:37 AM

Quote :

"What I will do is act completely surprised about why you DON'T think this is a bad thing."

Nailed it.

6/25/2009 11:19:40 AM

Dude.

I'm not saying reversals are inherently good. I am saying they are not inherently bad. You might be pissed that the light is on, you might be pissed that the light is off, but what kind of tin-hat gets pissed just because the switch is toggled?

Ultimately, we evaluate a decision by understanding its context (which we don't have) and its outcome (which we haven't seen yet). It's like...why are you even posting about this?

6/25/2009 11:20:22 AM

6/25/2009 11:32:50 AM

Do you have a sloppily Xeroxed manifesto I might read? Something tucked into a copy of The Independent Weekly waiting to spring on an unsuspecting coffeehouse patron? Maybe some vague warnings of civilian disarmament or a history of reptiloid influence in American politics? I'll settle for a dissertation on your four-day time cube theorem.

6/25/2009 11:35:28 AM

^ I'd prefer to stick to the topic: Obama flip-flops.

6/25/2009 11:37:12 AM

Quote :

"OMG, Obama's Iran policy is now the same as Bush's."

- Mahmoudh Ahmadinejad

wow did i miss somewhere in his speech where Obama calls Iran a part of the axis of evil?

I guess uninviting diplomats from a 4th of july party = labeling them axis of evil.

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 11:57 AM. Reason : hahaha that is probably how Ahmadinejad said it but it was lost in translation.]

6/25/2009 11:56:04 AM

Ahmadinejad compares Obama to Bush - 1 hour ago

Quote :

"President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad accused Barack Obama on Thursday of behaving like his predecessor towards Iran and said there was not much point in talking to Washington unless the United States president apologised."

http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-06-25-ahmadinejad-compares-obama-to-bush

6/25/2009 12:04:05 PM

^ haha first i beat you on that one but you got the link , second i missed the apology thing that makes it 2x more crazy ranting, almost up there with NK talking about wiping the US off the map and returning fire 1000x fold.

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 12:15 PM. Reason : .]

6/25/2009 12:11:54 PM

Isn't this precisely why we stayed out of the way over the first week of their problems? Because we knew definitively that they'd try to paint the US. Since we kept our noses out, they went after Britain. And finally, when we do make a statement they jump on the opportunity to propagandize.

So, it seems like the conservative line of thinking on this topic failed yet again.

6/25/2009 12:11:58 PM

^ Wrong again--Iran blamed us anyway.

Iran government blames United States for mass unrest in wake of presidential elections

Quote :

"Iran's government accused the United States Wednesday of 'intolerable' meddling for allegedly encouraging mass unrest following Friday's disputed election. A formal protest of 'interfering remarks by American officials' was made in Tehran. The Obama administration, which has tried to avoid getting involved, flatly rejected the charge. 'As the President has said, we are not interfering with the debate that Iranians are having about their election and its aftermath,' said State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley."

http://tinyurl.com/ndlhhf

Hmm. Seems as if no matter what we do Iran will blame us. Wait. . .maybe that's it!

6/25/2009 12:22:48 PM

Quote :

"Hmm. Seems as if no matter what we do Iran will blame us. Wait. . .maybe that's it!"

ok so you're saying that "if we're going to get blamed for it anyway, we might as well do what we want"

I see that you realize that Iran (the regime) is going to blame the US on everything that goes wrong anyway, good starting point. They're going to say things left and right about how we're messing with their lives, but the know that we're not. They're saying those things to stir up some trouble/ try to get some propaganda going.

do you really think that if the US was actually meddling in Iran's affairs and elections and the government knew about it like they claim that they do, the regime wouldn't take any action? do you think they'd sit back and just say "the United States is messing with us... hey world the US is messing with us!" like they have been this past week? NO, they'd take action against us.

my point is, they're talking the talk because that's all they have right now. Obama hasn't taken any steps towards Iran and i'm really glad he hasn't.

6/25/2009 12:30:15 PM

Quote :

"ok so you're saying that 'if we're going to get blamed for it anyway, we might as well do what we want'"

No. We can't fail to support voters' rights, human rights, a move toward freedom, and so on because we might be blamed for this or that--they blamed us anyway, for God's sake!

Quote :

"Obama hasn't taken any steps towards Iran and i'm really glad he hasn't."

Great. So, you support paralysis by analysis as I posted earlier. GG.

6/25/2009 12:34:46 PM

i can see neither one of us is going to concede, so i'm calling it game.

it was nice debating with you but there's really no point in further discussing the matter.

6/25/2009 12:41:22 PM

^^^^^Thats true, but it dosent work as ^^^^ pointed out.

This whole notion of ignoring Iran is completely ridiculous, espeically when you have the recent rigged elections, murder, and chaos.

The President is known as THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD for a reason ya know......

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 12:45 PM. Reason : .]

6/25/2009 12:42:47 PM

Quote :

"This whole notion of ignoring Iran is completely ridiculous, espeically when you have the recent rigged elections, murder, and chaos."

i'm not saying anyone should ignore Iran, my whole family is from there for god's sake.

I'd like to see an intervention between foreign nations and the iranian government, without a doubt. But i don't believe something that is warranted just yet.

[Edited on June 25, 2009 at 12:47 PM. Reason : ]

6/25/2009 12:46:01 PM

With Hooksaw's reasoning, I hope he is never accused of Murder.

On another point though. The US does not have any sort of diplomatic relations with Iran. What are we going to do? Sanction them more?

We have to follow the course we have been taking. Have countries who actually have commerce and diplomatic relations with Iran ratchet up the pressure.

6/25/2009 12:54:00 PM

Quote :

"^ Wrong again--Iran blamed us anyway. Iran government blames United States for mass unrest in wake of presidential elections"

You can't fucking comprehend an argument that doesn't originate in what you have left for a Brain.

Iran attempted like they always do to paint us in a bad light. We knew they would and they did, however, this time we didn't do shit so the accusation fell flat on its fucking face.

That accusation came June 17. It didn't go anywhere, so what did they do? They turned to Britain to try and drum up some propaganda...expelling their diplomats on the 23rd.

The administration executed a perfect game plan on this ordeal. You fail miserably...again.

6/25/2009 1:04:10 PM

^Agreed. Looking at the whole of the recent events in Iran, I think the administration's responses have been appropriate from start to finish.

My palm...never went to my face...so strange...

6/25/2009 1:20:38 PM