^^^i agree that i am not as well versed with other religions as i should be, but my understanding is that even other monotheistic religions support some form of works based righteousness which the Bible opposes. anyway, I'm already more involved in this than i wanted to be, I'm not interested in participating in an academic debate because faith in God is not an academic issue. I just wanted to make the point that that faith extends to believing in the Bible as God's true word as well.

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 10:20 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2009 10:20:03 PM

Quote :

"other monotheistic religions support some form of works based righteousness which the Bible opposes."

wat?

10/3/2009 10:25:04 PM

Quote :

" I'm not interested in participating in an academic debate because faith in God is not an academic issue."

Topics of religion are not exempt from scientific debate. Sorry, you don't get a free pass from criticism just because you're pious.

10/3/2009 10:38:28 PM

Quote :

"Christianity is at its core different than every other faith in the world, because it is the only one that suggests God chooses us, instead of what can God do for me. The focus is on His power and soverignty"

Calvinist?

Quote :

"i agree that i am not as well versed with other religions as i should be"

OK, so what makes you a Christian rather than say, a Muslim? Same God, a lot of the same cast of characters, and so on...

Oh, it's because, first and foremost, that you believe that Jesus was God incarnated in human form, that he died for your sins, then rose from the dead? Something like that? Very well...

Why do you believe that? The Bible says so?

Fair enough.

Why do you put any stock in what the Bible says?


sounds to me like we're about to engage in an

Quote :

"adademic issue"

Again, I'm not trying to trash Christianity. I've stated in nearly every post that I've made that I have no quarrel with God or religion. You, however, are another matter. The idiocy flows forth from your tongue like a river of diarrhea.

10/3/2009 10:57:28 PM

Quote :

"Not really. I know what I know based on my knowledge, logic, and reason. Do I have hope? Of course. But that's something completely different."

Now that's an interesting statement. Honest question, no sarcasm or "gotcha" involved. Why do you hope for the existence of something you know (or at least reasonably believe) to not exist?

Quote :

"Again, I'm not trying to trash Christianity. I've stated in nearly every post that I've made that I have no quarrel with God or religion. You, however, are another matter. The idiocy flows forth from your tongue like a river of diarrhea. "

Yes. Remy, arguing against other religions/beliefs based on ignorant understandings of those beliefs is no better than the freshman atheist who read "101 Biblical Contradictions and You" arguing that christianity is trash.

10/3/2009 11:09:58 PM

Honestly I feel bad for NCSURemy, because he was probably brainwashed from his early years to buy into this crap.

Quote :

"Now that's an interesting statement. Honest question, no sarcasm or "gotcha" involved. Why do you hope for the existence of something you know (or at least reasonably believe) to not exist?"

It's part of the human condition, I guess. I don't believe in luck or fate, but I do hope that things will turn out well in the end for me. It's really no different than thinking positive. The difference between myself and a Christian, though, is that I don't believe that a god will be involved in the matter.

EDIT: I don't think I misinterpeted your question, did I? I wasn't saying that I was hoping that god existed. I was saying that I regularly experience the emotion of "hope" and not "faith."

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 11:13 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2009 11:10:43 PM

No you didn't, I misinterpreted your statement. So with no god, luck or fate, are you a determinist? Is everything sort of one giant machine and the effects of any given action are perfectly predictable given enough information? If so, does "hope" serve any useful purpose or is it as empty and worthless as a belief in a flying spaghetti monster?

Again, no sarcasm or gotchas here, I really do find discussions about the philosophical nature of the world interesting, but it's rare to have them because as we can see from this thread, many people are extremely sensitive to what the perceive as attacks on their position, or they find confronting the implications about their beliefs dangerously uncomfortable.

10/3/2009 11:29:17 PM

Pretty much.

For example, let's say I am in a passenger airplane experiencing turbulence. I can "hope" that the situation will end up okay, but that does absolutely nothing to influence the situation. It may help calm my nerves if I can convince myself not to worry, and I may act more rationally in the event of an emergency, but as far as affecting the pilot, the weather, or anything else, there's really nothing that my hoping will do to influence things.

I suppose this is similar to someone praying in that situation, or someone "having faith" that they're going to make it out okay. To me, it's just thinking positively and convincing yourself that tomorrow is going to happen.

10/3/2009 11:39:00 PM

Mmmm religious arguments on the internet. Pro.

My religion is SHUT-THE-FUCK-UP-AND-STOP-KILLING-PEOPLE (not to be confused with Taoism)

10/4/2009 1:13:11 AM

so i said back a few pages ago, but i went to a church from like ages 10-15 . honestly the best part about it:

elementary school - we played games and earned like monopoly money (got a lot for memorizing bible shit, i have a good memory)

middle school - the room had a galaga arcade game that i could play before and after the service...

high school - nothing fun anymore, so i quit. it got to be too much of a social thing. having gone there for like 4-5 years, i'd show up and some kid i didnt know would ask me at the door if it was my first time there.

anyways, i dont think i ever really even tried to understand/believe anything they taught. oh also i did like some of the stories and would often rent the bible cartoon movies from the church (samson & delilah, david & goliath, etc).

10/4/2009 5:51:59 AM

Quote :

"Now that's an interesting statement. Honest question, no sarcasm or "gotcha" involved. Why do you hope for the existence of something you know (or at least reasonably believe) to not exist?"

I don't see why it's such an untenable position. I hope a perpetual motion machine exists but come on.

10/4/2009 11:54:28 AM

i hope that i will get a genie in a bottle (NOT ONE OF THE TRICKSTER VARIETY!!!1) but it hasn't happened yet

we should turn this thread into a list of what we hope for. I hope for change

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 2:55 PM. Reason : s]

10/4/2009 2:54:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHWNr8XtiDU Matt Dilahunty pretty much sums up why atheists take offense to religion, and I agree with him

10/4/2009 3:02:14 PM

I stopped watching about the time the video said that christianity endorses slavery.

saying stuff like that is akin to christians saying that atheists will go out and murder people because they have no morality. its a gross oversimplication of someone's beliefs in a deliberate attempt to discredit them.

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 3:05 PM. Reason : s]

10/4/2009 3:05:13 PM

no its not dude. if your beliefs are completely attributed to a book that was written by god that endorses slavery and killing then its fair fucking game. notwithstanding the fundamentalists who believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. you're just a picker and chooser

10/4/2009 3:10:10 PM

How many Christians do you know who support slavery?

I'll even go one further--how many fundamentalist Christians--the types who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible--do you know who support slavery?

None? OK, that's what I thought. You can stop making fucking retarded statements now.

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 3:14 PM. Reason : ]

10/4/2009 3:12:17 PM

Nietzsche was an atheist.

Hitler followed Nietzsche.

All atheists are like Hitler.

10/4/2009 3:16:49 PM

haha, actually a few im sure wouldnt turn down the oppurtunity.....but my point is it was written by god, why would he/she endorse something like that, even if it was written in the bronze age...shouldnt god, being god and all have the foresight to see that its fucking immoral? especially since the bible is supposedly the end all be all source for values and morals.


oh now its a retarded statement, ok

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 3:17 PM. Reason : s]

10/4/2009 3:16:52 PM

HOW ABOUT YOU STOP QUESTIONING GOD'S MOTIVES OK

10/4/2009 3:17:22 PM

Quote :

"christianity endorses slavery."

It does endorse slavery. It's not just over the top hyperbole, either. Leviticus 25:44-46 -

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."

Oh, great. At least God isn't anti-Semitic. He just hates the rest of humanity. So, if you say you think the bible is the inerrant word of God, you either endorse that verse, or you don't really think the bible is the inerrant word of God.

Quote :

"Nietzsche was an atheist. Hitler followed Nietzsche. All atheists are like Hitler."

That's a fallacy, and it's not the same as saying that, if Christians endorse the entire bible, then they have endorsed these immoral laws.

10/4/2009 3:30:06 PM

Nobody takes the Bible literally to the point that they follow all the shit in Leviticus.

I mean, there are people who do some silly shit in the name of Christianity, but I have never, ever, even ONCE heard of a Christian who wouldn't wear blended fabrics. Neither am I aware of any burnt offerings that have been offered up lately.

You can stop with this stupid slavery in Leviticus bit. This is as goddamn stupid as the stuff that ncsuREMY posts.

10/4/2009 3:38:31 PM

Read this recently. Pretty amusing take on taking things literally. And yea, he hired some jewish fabric mixing detective, lulz.

10/4/2009 3:42:45 PM

You're missing the point. I'm not saying any Christians actually believe this shit. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. I think most people, Christians or not, have much better morals than the ones the bible lays out. And, if the bible can be shown to be immoral in some spots, why should any of it be considered divinely inspired?

10/4/2009 3:44:03 PM

You don't understand Christian doctrine, for starters. When Jesus came back, he freed Jews and future Christians from having to adhere to the laws contained in what we now call the OT

Anyway, it doesn't really matter does it... There are lots of ways to criticize christianity. There's no reason to take these simple potshots based on misunderstandings of the faith. That just shows how stupid an atheist actually is, when they start attacking from these angles.

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 3:54 PM. Reason : s]

10/4/2009 3:52:45 PM

....except for all the ones that Christians still want to follow?

10/4/2009 3:55:04 PM

no, it has nothing to do with that.

anyway, i'm as "atheist" as the rest of you but at least I retained some semblance of intelligence when i converted away from christianity. you motherfuckers seem to have lost all ability to conceptualize beyond "DURRRR SEE SPOT RUN THAT WHAT IT SAYS"

10/4/2009 3:56:57 PM

k

10/4/2009 3:59:27 PM

Quote :

"You don't understand Christian doctrine, for starters. When Jesus came back, he freed Jews and future Christians from having to adhere to the laws contained in what we now call the OT"

Jesus never denounced the old testament. They're still considered sins, you just don't go to hell for them necessarily, as long as you accept the right god.

Quote :

"There's no reason to take these simple potshots based on misunderstandings of the faith."

I haven't misunderstood the faith, though. If you're going to make the extraordinary claim that the bible is the word of God, you should probably be able to defend that book from proper criticism.

Quote :

"That just shows how stupid an atheist actually is, when they start attacking from these angles."

Shameful.

Quote :

"anyway, i'm as "atheist" as the rest of you but at least I retained some semblance of intelligence when i converted away from christianity. you motherfuckers seem to have lost all ability to conceptualize beyond "DURRRR SEE SPOT RUN THAT WHAT IT SAYS""

k

10/4/2009 4:19:21 PM

Quote :

"Jesus never denounced the old testament. They're still considered sins, you just don't go to hell for them necessarily, as long as you accept the right god."

That is simply not true. Not only is it not true, but its not necessary to approach Christianity from this angle in order to invalidate it.

10/4/2009 4:21:13 PM

I don't think the slavery thing was brought up to invalidate Christianity. The point was about immorality and encouraging believers to do immoral things.

10/4/2009 4:23:24 PM

Whatever... invalidate, discredit, persuade against... pick your verb.

Anyway, a theological discussion would be great, but pointless because none of us actually believe in any of it. Just take my word for it that you guys have grossly misunderstood Christian doctrine and you sound like idiots when you talk about the Old Testament in this way.

10/4/2009 4:25:55 PM

Honestly, I've never had someone give me a good explanation of how the OT applies currently. And I can't find a simple one online that isn't full of nonsense.

You're right that there are probably better ways to discredit Christianity. That's not really the issue here. The poster of the video said "why atheists take offense to religion"

10/4/2009 4:32:06 PM

and then the video went on to display a mind-numbing level of ignorance towards christianity. he can't be taken seriously - he's merely offended by his own extremely misguided interpretation of christianity.

10/4/2009 4:34:18 PM

^^^^^Shit, I don't even have to google to tell you that the wages of sin are death, but the gift of god is eternal life. Jesus said the only way to the father was through him. Do you not know that Jesus endorsed the old testament? He says in many different places in the bible that the scripture is the word of God. You obviously need to open up the bible if you don't want to come across as someone that knows nothing about it.

Why you would mindlessly defend the bible as an atheist, I can't even begin to understand. No, people don't actually pay attention to the laws in Old Testament. It would be illegal to do so. I'm fully aware of that. It goes back to the fact that I'm not attempting to discredit the individuals, I'm attacking the belief system, and the holy book, that they claim to endorse.

10/4/2009 4:36:26 PM

Well... Like I said, I'm not going to get into a big theological discussion here. Even if I did explain it to you, it wouldn't matter because the net result is still the same. In fact, there's a reason for me to NOT explain it to you - so that you go make an ass of yourself someday in front of someone that can rip you apart in front of your friends IRL instead of online

And for the record, I'm not mindlessly defending the bible, I'm just a stickler for accuracy. It doesn't matter which side they originate from - I won't give inaccuracies a free pass.

Ok... I won't get into the theology, but I will give you a little thought experiment. Imagine that you are dealing with a world-wide religion with millions of followers throughout thousands of years. Now imagine that there is something as simple as you describe that discredits (OR WHATEVER) this religion. Do you really think there is no explanation for this problem? LOL YOU FUCKING MORON - or maybe you're just an opportunist and would rather not investigate the explanation?

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 4:45 PM. Reason : s]

10/4/2009 4:39:37 PM

There isn't a person on earth that could beat me in any sort of debate on religion, if that's what you're saying. I'm sure there are people that know the bible better than I do, but anyone can open up a bible and read what it has to say. I have done that, and I know what the bible says. I have researched it. I went to church for many years, as a Christian that wanted to learn more about the bible. It isn't really a question of what the bible says, but of how much of it you want to regard as valid. Most mainstream Christians reject quite a bit of the bible out of hand, whether they cop to it or not.

10/4/2009 4:48:45 PM

well there are many ways to interpret the bible. you've chosen a method of interpreting the bible that is completely incompatible with any recognizable form of christianity that has EVER existed.... So I guess that kind of demonstrates about how much you really understand the religion.

Oh but you say you went to church for years to try to understand it? I guess that makes you more of an authority than any biblical scholar that has preceded us throughout the 2000 year history of christianity, then!!!

Must have been some kind of super-church I guess.

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 4:52 PM. Reason : s]

10/4/2009 4:50:52 PM

Quote :

"How many Christians do you know who support slavery? I'll even go one further--how many fundamentalist Christians--the types who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible--do you know who support slavery? None? OK, that's what I thought. You can stop making fucking retarded statements now. "

... therefore the Bible is not the unerring word of God, therefore there's no way to know whether Christianity is "right" or not in the face of any other belief system.

10/4/2009 5:03:17 PM

moron: depends on how you interpret the bible - and how much of it you read in order to gain context for what seems at first glance to be an error

Here's a simple fact: pointing out errors in the bible is like atheism pre-school, where the kid's so proud of the turkey that he drew by tracing his hand.... "Look mama it looks like a real turkey!"

Oh... also wanted to take another dig at destroyer, because he makes it so easy:

Quote :

"There isn't a person on earth that could beat me in any sort of debate on religion"

Quote :

"I don't see how you could say I have a superiority complex"

10/4/2009 5:07:22 PM

Quote :

"moron: depends on how you interpret the bible - and how much of it you read in order to gain context for what seems at first glance to be an error "

Of course, but there are large amounts of people who claim that the bible must be taken literally, and is the unerring word of God. These are mostly the same people who believe that creationism should be taught in schools, and the universe was created in 7 literal days ~8000 years ago. These are the groups of Christians who cause problems for everyone else, and the group of Christians most likely to butt heads with atheists or agnostics (and often other Christians…).

I’m pretty sure the “christians” being talked about in this thread arent the christians who merely view Christianity as a means for socializing, but otherwise live their lives as agnostics anyway.

10/4/2009 5:47:20 PM

Quote :

"There isn't a person on earth that could beat me in any sort of debate on religion, if that's what you're saying."

wow. just wow.

10/4/2009 5:59:02 PM

believing in God is the dumbest thing i ever heard.

/thread

10/4/2009 6:32:59 PM

^^^ Well, you can believe that the bible is unerring and must be taken literally without believing that you must live by the letter of the law as described in the old testament. The explanation for this is theological in nature and I won't get into it... You can believe me, investigate this for yourself (should be trivial), or continue to be a religion n00b. HAY GUYS MY NEW COMPUTER DOESN'T HAVE A CUP HOLDER ANYMORE - WHAT HAPPEN!?

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 6:57 PM. Reason : s]

10/4/2009 6:57:38 PM

^You know, you're a borderline troll. You can't resist the personal jabs, can you?

10/4/2009 7:37:26 PM

I started to go through and trash a bunch of these posts, but I'll just say that I pretty much echo Solinari.

10/4/2009 7:38:14 PM

Attn: McDanger

Remember when we went to mass with your grandma? That was sweet. I like the fact that we now hold similar views about this topic after we researched Catholicism. Coincidence or divine intervention?! (haha jk) However I am saddened that you have not mentioned or quoted MC Hawking.

heart,
begonias

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 8:05 PM. Reason : you down with entropy? ]

10/4/2009 8:04:32 PM

The issue about the bible condoning slavery is legitimate.

Of course christians currently don't support slavery! That's because humans have their own sense of morality, and it has evolved beyond that of ancient, barbaric men. We are not born immoral sinners in need of salvation through reading the bible, and following the tenants of christianity. We have advanced our morals to be more humane and just DESPITE the bible.

10/4/2009 8:04:33 PM

Quote :

"Well, you can believe that the bible is unerring and must be taken literally without believing that you must live by the letter of the law as described in the old testament. "

Of course you can. It's what most christians do. It's called cherry-picking.

"The bible is the unerring word of god... except for those inconvient errors and contradictions and immoral things."

And that tremendously weakens the foundation of the entire religion.

10/4/2009 8:15:25 PM

oops stupid laggy internet

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 8:23 PM. Reason : s]

10/4/2009 8:21:18 PM

oops stupid laggy internet

[Edited on October 4, 2009 at 8:22 PM. Reason : s]

10/4/2009 8:21:58 PM