that program doesn't make any sense. It was telling me to use weights lower and at my 10RM for a 5/3/1 program. Am I missing something?

It's not like I would ever get on one anyway. I train for hypertrophy, not strength. I don't have any desire to train for strength either.

8/28/2011 9:08:15 AM

There's a button that toggles to start with weights at 90% of 1rm.

5/3/1 can be modified for hypertrophy. The boring but big assistance is pretty good. I think it is a great program for the intermediate level, un-enhanced lifter.


###

Dynamic Squat Day:

Box Squat 220 8x2
Squat 310 3x1
Power Cleans 140 8x2 + Chin Upsx5
RDL 225 5x5 + 40#DB Curlsx8
Abs: Hanging Knees to 'boes + Stability Ball Roll Outs

8/28/2011 10:40:58 AM

Neato.

And I did not know Wendler squatted 1000 lb.

8/28/2011 12:12:03 PM

On to the "in season" program. Off of Westside and lifting only 2 days a week. Training on Tuesday and thursday, matches Saturday, and 8K Mondays. Plenty of running on tues, thurs, and sat.


Squats: 3x3
Leg extension: 3x10
Leg Curl: 3x10
Incline Bench Press: 3x10
1 arm French press: 3x10
Lat machine crunches: 3x12

8/28/2011 8:09:26 PM

i think i might start a 5/3/1 program for a few months

getting bored of the SL variant ive been doing

8/29/2011 11:53:06 AM

How many reps should I aim for doing standing cable crunches? I tried doing them yesterday and I could do a ton of reps. I would up the weight and it would throw me off balance and I wasn't getting the right form.

8/29/2011 11:58:02 AM

5/3/1 looks interesting

I'm curious, what lift exactly is the "overhead press" it uses for calculations? I've typically been doing standing presses...should I use that or is it looking for sitting military press

8/29/2011 12:06:15 PM

it's looking for standing, with knees and hips locked i think.

brings the core in for stabilization a lot more than sitting.

8/29/2011 12:17:39 PM

12-20 cable crunches. Do them with a staggered stance, 12-20 for each side. So change your stance and do them again for 1 complete set. Try it with a lat pulldown machine. Much harder. Hold the long bar behind your neck. Or you can do them kneeling with a regular cable.

The overhead press is done standing.

8/29/2011 8:06:15 PM

For ab work, I am a big fan of hanging from elbow straps and doing knees to elbows and super set with some sort of roll out.

8/30/2011 6:28:28 AM

okie dokie

did day 1 last night and day 2 this morning of the triumvirate 5/3/1

all i know is

Quote :

" Dips - 5 sets of 15 reps Chin-ups - 5 sets of 10 reps "

even with using some weight assist, that is kinda nuts. i did not finish. nor was i able to finish 5x10 hanging leg raises this morning.

8/30/2011 8:53:41 AM

that's not nuts; I can do that while weighing 250+ pounds. A person that's leaner than me and doesn't have major leg development should easily be able to knock that out.

8/30/2011 10:25:37 AM

<- girly upper body strength.

8/30/2011 11:40:09 AM

you'll get there. That is some of the most beneficial stuff to do too. The power tower I own was one of the best investments I made considering how cheap they are. It was one of the final things that let my wife and I stop paying for a gym. Pull ups, chin ups, leg lifts, dips, and supports enough weight to let me do weighted ones when I want to (I am light to start though) all for $100.

8/30/2011 12:04:41 PM

Dynamic Bench Day

Bench 165 8x3. 235 3x1
Incline Bench 135 3x12
Pendlay Row 185 3x5. 134x15
Incline Folding Tricep Extensions 35# 5x10
Lat Bar Cable Rows 5x10

8/30/2011 12:13:12 PM

Quote :

"<- girly upper body strength."

I can do 15 dips for 1. The remaining sets are embarrassing. Chins have the same fall off, but I can only do about half that to start. Haven't seen any progress on the body weight stuff in a while either.

I read about this strategy of doing 10x1, 10x2, 10x3, etc to build endurance. I'm trying that now.

[Edited on August 30, 2011 at 12:40 PM. Reason : sets by reps, right?]

8/30/2011 12:39:15 PM

Just keep working on it. It's a mixture of strength and endurance.

I'd focus on doing about 3-5sets of going to ~80% failure... So about 2-3reps shy of failure or stopping whenever your movement speed slows down considerably. Maybe go to failure on the last set.

Try to add a rep or two, one set at a time if you have to, each work out.

This is how I got up to 3x20 reps going super deep on dips.

[Edited on August 30, 2011 at 12:52 PM. Reason : 0]

8/30/2011 12:51:40 PM

I can't do shit for pull ups either

Which plan is best from that website? I'm doing the Dave Tate's Periodization Bible for my stats, but the accessory lifts seem weak. One good lift at a decent pyramid/set number, then 3 lifts of high rep low weight? Low weight since you need to do 10-20...seems iffy.

Where does the 5/3/1 name come from anyway? Each day incorporates a "MainLift 5/3/1" lift, but each week besides week 3 involves 3x5 or 3x3. Seems odd to name an entire work out "5/3/1" when its only one lift every 4 weeks. I also find the weights for the main lift it recommends (especially week 1) to be incredibly low.

8/30/2011 12:57:39 PM

It starts low intentionally so you ramp up over time. This program is to be done of the course of months/years. Not some quick "improve your bench by 30lbs in the 30days!" bull shit.

week 1: sets of 5s
week 2: sets of 3s
week 3: max attempt at 1.
week 4: deload.

(i think that web app has a slightly different rep scheme, but that's how it is in the 5/3/1 manual)

Also, on your last set you go for max reps. So even though you are starting at conservative percentages you get a good stimulus on the last set. One way you can speed up the progression is by adding 2.5lbs for every rep over the Rx'ed amount on the next cycle. So if you did 135x5+ and you get 11 reps you would do 150x5+ on the next cycle. If you are a newb, i'd just stick to adding 5lbs though.

The high rep/sets (total volume) on the accessory work is good for growth, and you gradually increase the weights as you can get all the reps in.

That is the strategy for long term success. A lot of people make the mistake of going balls to the wall too frequently with out building up a solid foundation of strength and technique.

[Edited on August 30, 2011 at 1:10 PM. Reason : 0]

8/30/2011 1:09:27 PM

peter....

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

8/30/2011 1:24:19 PM

Hmm, interesting article, I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the link. I did like this quote from a quick glance:

Quote :

""I want be able to do a bunch of different activities and still kick ass in the weight room. I want to be as mobile, flexible, strong, and in as good a condition as I possibly can. That's how I came up with 5/3/1." "

^^I'll give it a shot, but going in there and working out with slightly higher weight than my warm up is definitely a shift from what I used to do. I do like the 2.5lb per rep deal, so I'll implement that. Damn, guess I gotta write stuff down now . I have a good foundation of strength and technique, so it sounds like this 5/3/1 deal should be good to investigate.

Looks like I'm not the only one who thought that, haha

Quote :

"But the program has also received criticism from lifters on two fronts: that lifters are told to start too light, and build too slow. "Start too light" refers to Wendler's insistence that the prescribed loads are calculated off of 90% of the lifter's 1RM. If your 1RM in the bench is 315, why calculate loads off a 1RM of 285? Wendler has a characteristically blunt response: "People who freak out about the 90% thing are usually weak in the first place. You don't need to operate at your max to increase your max. Why people get so bent out of shape about taking two steps back if it means they'll be taking 10 steps forward is beyond me.""

So I guess with the "gas in the tank" mentality, should one be going with "Big But Boring" which hits the core lifts twice, "The Triumvirate" of 3 different lifts, or the Periodization bible? I was thinking the last one since it had the most lifts, but now I'm not sure. Does it matter?

[Edited on August 31, 2011 at 11:11 AM. Reason : lkj]

8/31/2011 11:04:17 AM

Stop over thinking it. Use accessory lifts to hit weaknesses or build mass. Variety isn't always optimal. Besides, your focus should on the core lifts and not all the stuff you want to do after them. Get the big lifts strong(er) and most things will fall in to place.

If 85-95% of your 1rm (or even 90% of your 1rm) are close to your warm up weights, then you are not warming up properly or you don't have a true 1rm.

8/31/2011 12:34:19 PM

Max Effort Lower Body Day

Good Mornings - 135x5, 185x3, 225x3, 245/275/295/315/325x1, 225x8
Front Squat - 135 5x10
Single Leg DL - 135 3x6
Abs + Shrugs

[Edited on August 31, 2011 at 12:36 PM. Reason : o]

8/31/2011 12:36:17 PM

Yeah, I don't know my 1RM. I had the web app estimate it using rep amounts I can max out on.

I just need to stop over thinking it

8/31/2011 12:37:00 PM

8/31/2011 12:43:33 PM

Are you trying to get stronger or look stronger? unless you goal is raw strength, I wouldn't be thinking about switching to a 5/3/1 program. higher reps are what you need for hypertrophy, not brute strength. muscle size and muscle strength are not related as much as you'd like to think.

8/31/2011 2:11:45 PM

^i agree whole heartedly.

it is a rare breed of man who has the looks and strength of franco columbo.

you can always train for strength + hypertrophy, but remember, at the 100% effort range of your muscles, your nervous system calls upon the strongest (and only the strongest) fibers to fire. you will not get any bigger because only those fibers are working.

you can work in the 85% range and start to see new growth, but it will never be like a body builder who puts ego aside and trains for hypertrophy.

8/31/2011 2:26:18 PM

I beg to differ. At least for the individual who is a beginner and un-enhanced.

Once you have a good foundation, yes specializing in body building and hypertrophy will give you more of that look. However, your average gym goer is going to spin their wheels if they don't get a solid foundation of strength built first.

8/31/2011 4:59:24 PM

I got as big as I was by never lifting below the 10 rep range. strength gains will come from sticking to any lifting program and eating correctly. focusing on low rep strength is only going to maximize the potential of the nervous system, not muscle strength. higher rep work will encourage recruitment of additional muscle fibers and result in more muscle growth.

With the exception of maybe Mariusz Pudzianowski, I can't think of a single strongman/powerlifter I'd like to model my physique after, and even he trains with relatively high reps.

8/31/2011 6:29:22 PM

8/31/2011 6:44:16 PM

From a physiological stand point your argument is sound. Higher rep work more muscle fibers and promote metabolic fatigue, and that is what results is muscle growth.

I like to look at it like a pendulum.... Build size and work capacity with higher rep/metabolic stuff, then swing over to more neuro/strength oriented work to match your size to strength. Then go back to higher rep work. Rinse and repeat.

There are a million ways to program training. But you are right, higher volume generally produces muscle gains when accompanied with appropriate nutrition. For example, you can do sets of 10s or you could do double the sets with 5s. You can modify rest periods or do pre fatiguing work.

My point is that most gym goers are so damn weak that doing 10s at such a sub-maximal level isn't as productive as getting strong with 5s and 3s. Especially with technically demanding lifts like the squat, DL and bench.

[Edited on August 31, 2011 at 6:50 PM. Reason : 0]

8/31/2011 6:49:42 PM

So let's say I did want to train for hypertrophy and I know jack shit about it. Is there a good program someone can recommend?

8/31/2011 7:10:42 PM

I might be a little biased about starting strength not being a big deal, because I've never been small. By the time I was 5 years old, I was expected to be able to sling a 70lb square hay bale into the back of a pickup truck during hay season. between herding cattle, hooking up farm equipment, building fences, and other manual labor that accompanies growing up on a farm, you can't be but so small. Combine that with my dad being a competitive powerlifter and getting me to train with him at an early age, I never started out weak.

on top of that, I'm of the opinion that a training regiment isn't the hindrance to gains with 95% of people in the gym; it's nutrition. they don't get in enough calories, don't eat at the right times, and don't eat the right macronutrients together. they blame their lack of progress on their training instead of looking at the easy fix. A lot of people never grasp the concept of bulking and cutting and instead try to think that simply training harder on top of their usual diet will get the job done. Even worse, you hear a lot of people go to the gym, grind through a tough workout, and then comment on their way out how they're going to treat themselves to a big mac or chicken wings with beer immediately afterwards. Why would you endure all that only to completely ruin any potential gains by eating garbage that won't be turned into muscle? if you wanted to reward yourself, eat a steak and a sweet potato, not fat and alcohol.




[Edited on August 31, 2011 at 9:04 PM. Reason : split to two posts]

8/31/2011 9:04:01 PM

Gotcha. Interesting story.

All valid points, but ya'll just had a huge debate above about reps and then you follow it up with "it doesn't really matter." Which is it?

8/31/2011 9:27:26 PM

regarding a program for hypertrophy, it's hard to go wrong with a basic 3x10 training regiment. my typical split is as follows:

Monday - Chest (triceps ancillary)
bench
incline DB Flyes
dips (chest stuck way out, legs back)
cable crossovers

Tuesday - Back (biceps ancillary)
pullups
bentover barbell rows or T-bar rows
CG seated cable rows
CG pulldowns

Wednesday: quad dominant leg day
Squats
Hack Squats
Walking Lunges
Seated Leg Extensions

Thursday: arms and shoulders
lateral raises
standing overhead dumbbell press
dips (straight up and down)
rope tricep extensions
bb curls
incline DB curls

Friday: hamstring dominant day
good mornings
hyperextensions
lying leg curls
abductor/adductor machines



each day is followed by 30 minutes of cardio, and if I go in one day and just don't feel like I have enough energy to lift, then I'll do an hour of cardio. a day of golf is usually substituted somewhere in that mix too. I do 2-3 warmup sets for the first couple of exercises, and usually one warmup set for the latter exercises.

I keep notes in a journal of how strong I felt on the set and at what weight. If I felt like I had another rep in me after 10, I'll save it for the next set and denote in my log that it was easy so that I'll increase the weight on the next time I train that body part. I start off as heavy as possible on each exercise after warming up, and then taper off slightly to what I think I can get 10 reps of on the next set. For instance, I might do 45x10, 135x10, 135x10 to warm up on the bench, and then follow that up with my first working set of 325x10, then 295x10, then 275x10.

The real goal is to find out what you respond to best. Some people do better in the 6-8 rep range, whereas I respond a lot better in the 10-12 rep range. You have to find what works best for you.

8/31/2011 9:36:37 PM

Quote :

"All valid points, but ya'll just had a huge debate above about reps and then you follow it up with "it doesn't really matter." "

it matters, but not as much as everyone claims. higher reps will result in better hypertrophy gains, but you can make some hypertrophy gains lifting heavier for lower reps. However, most people don't eat right, and you're not going to make shit for gains no matter how you train if your diet isn't in check.

I can understand another reason why people recommend lower rep workouts to beginners; they see the weights they're using increase faster and don't get discouraged as easily. With a program like 3x10, the weights being used don't go up much at all between workouts, if at all, and a lifter has to be dedicated enough to stick with it and trust that they're making progress. I used to recommend DC training to people for this very same reason; steady gains, not a lot of time tied up in the gym, and it's a proven system. I don't recobmmend it as often now because it's a lot more complicated to explain than I used to give it credit for.

8/31/2011 9:45:16 PM

As far as my goals, at this time I'd like to get bigger in size. I've been in the gym off and on since about 2005 and I've just trained for strength (low reps, changing between 5x5 or pyramid types of workouts), which was effective at getting me decent baseline strength and neurological development. I combined it with good nutrition...as much as a typical college guy will. I was never a fat guy, mostly low bf%. Started at 175ish and worked my way up through weight gain protein blends and proper diet, finding how my body gains weight and got up to about 190 by the time I graduated. Then I moved in with my girlfriend, went to Europe for a summer, and fattened up to ~210

I've never really trained to get big aside from normal muscle gains from lifting and proper nutrition, so I think that's what my goal now is...in addition with getting down to about 200. Once I figure that out, this sounds about what I'd want to get into:

Quote :

"I like to look at it like a pendulum.... Build size and work capacity with higher rep/metabolic stuff, then swing over to more neuro/strength oriented work to match your size to strength. Then go back to higher rep work. Rinse and repeat."

At 5'11", I feel 200lbs is about the max of what would look decent on my frame, baring very low bf% or an otherwise very high end fitness level. I talked with a nutritionist at NC State who agreed just before graduation.

So, cool story bro aside, I'm going for size increase, after which I'd like for strength to match the size. Guess I just kinda ranted there but I needed to think it out, lol.

For my current workouts, on core lifts I've been switching between 5 to 7 set (10 to 3 to 10) pyramid scheme and 5-7 sets of high rep (7-10). Auxiliary lifts I do 3 lifts at 3x10.

[Edited on August 31, 2011 at 10:33 PM. Reason : jkl]

8/31/2011 10:23:07 PM

Peter, if you don't mind sharing, what are your strength numbers? Squat, bench, dead lift, chin ups?

A lean (10%ish) 200lbs at your height would look pretty good.

9/1/2011 6:15:05 AM

i think i underestimated my 1rm on bench for the 5/3/1.

blew through 12 reps on the 5+ day this morning.

whoops.

matt, should i adjust for week 2, or just go with it?

9/1/2011 9:31:56 AM

Just go with it. Doing the higher reps isn't bad, as it will stimulate muscle growth. Plus easing in to the heavier weights will allow you to progress further/longer.

One modification I tried doing was this: for every 2 reps I achieved over 3reps I'd add 5lbs and do 1-5sets of singles with that weight after that max rep set.

For example: If you get 12 on your last set. 12-3=9, 9/2=4.5, 4.5x5=22.5lbs. So you add 20-25lbs to the bar and do 1-5 sets of singles depending on how heavy it feels or how fatigued you are.

I really like this so you can taste some heavier weight.

[Edited on September 1, 2011 at 12:13 PM. Reason : o]

9/1/2011 12:01:04 PM

that's an interesting approach.

thanks!

9/1/2011 6:21:19 PM

i have now determined, with relative certainty, that it is mid and heavy leg compound lifting that has been tearing up my lower back
it's horrible it shoots all the way down my leg (gotta be sciatic).
im on codeine atm and can still feel it >.<

so im wanting to transition to lighter weight and even just body weight leg exercises.

you guys got anything for me?
i know you do MattJMM2 .

even just a link to a shit ton of exercises will work

i mean im still gonna do lunges with #25 and the like but i would love to find a resorce that has a bunch of exercises.

i think i might incorporate lots of squat jumps.
those are fun

[Edited on September 1, 2011 at 8:04 PM. Reason : sfsd]

9/1/2011 8:04:07 PM

walking lunges are my exercise of choice when my back gets tired. front squats work well also, since it's not nearly as much weight yet still strains the quads well.

for the walking lunges, I throw a barbell on my back and try to take as long of a stride as I can manage. Vibram Five Finger shoes help a lot for keeping stability while stretching out and dragging forward. My walking lunges almost look like a wrestler's single leg shoot.

[Edited on September 1, 2011 at 10:40 PM. Reason : lunge variation]

9/1/2011 10:38:49 PM

Quote :

"Peter, if you don't mind sharing, what are your strength numbers? Squat, bench, dead lift, chin ups?"

Sure, just don't laugh . I don't have any 1rm numbers since I refuse to try and find that alone.

I haven't done squats in years. Torn ACL and never fully recovered even with surgery due to a severely strained LCL. Doc decided mid surgery that he didn't want to fix the LCL. That and I don't have squat equipment in my home gym.

A high effort 10x bench set right now is around 10x205.

Dead lift is difficult since that often puts lateral force on my knees, which is compounded by a knee that easily flexes out due to the bad LCL and probably bad form. I keep it low, so a general set now would be 10x185 or 7x205. I'll often tweak my knee a bit and just call it quits. Last summer I was working out with 225 regularly, going up to 315 and maybe 365/405 for a max...but that was with a cable-bench rack thing (forget the name). I think my knee was in better shape from doing a lot of walking...lived in Europe with no car or bike.

For leg/knee equipment I don't have much, just a leg extension adaptor for my bench and a 25lb vest I could get creative with.

Chin ups are abysmal, I can squeeze out like 3-5 . Never been good at those, always been too heavy with not developed enough back even when I had real gym access. I think it partly stems from my screwy shoulder, which I dislocated/sprained and self-rehabbed but now feels like it will pop out of joint when doing pull down exercises, or I otherwise feel I can't get a good strong pull out of the exercise due to shoulder wonkyness. I also don't have much back equipment besides dumbbells and barbells.

9/2/2011 12:35:48 AM

Sounds like you should just be happy that you can function enough to be a useful human being.

9/2/2011 5:07:42 AM

Joie, back off any spinal loading until you can clear up the issues. Trying to work through something with pain and possible faulty movement patterns is going to make things worse and potentially lead to a more serious injury.

It actually may be more of a psoas and hip flexor issue, rather than a low back issue. Even if the pain is coming from that area. Try this stretch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o0KNU4WAG0

Peter, those numbers are not bad! Definitely gives you the ability to move some weight. I don't want to give you too internet advice if you are dealing with so many joint issues. I know a lot about corrective exercise, but with out being able to see you move it's rather risky for me to speculate.

For both of you, work on these things and it may clear some things up: ankle mobility, hip mobility and thoracic spine mobility. There's a wealth of free info out there, just need to look for it. http://www.mobilitywod.com is an amazing resource.




[Edited on September 2, 2011 at 6:10 AM. Reason : linky]

9/2/2011 6:02:33 AM

Max Effort Press Day

Floor Press - work up to 265x1, Failed on 275x1, 225x5 paused
Overhead Press - 135/155x5, 175 push press 2x3, 135 push press x 10.
1arm 75#db row 5x10
Lying Tricep Ext 75#ezbar 5x10
DB Shoulder Work

I am thinking about entering my first power lifting competition in March. If I can lose about 5lbs and add 105lbs to my total, I may be able to be very competitive.

[Edited on September 2, 2011 at 11:50 AM. Reason : o]

9/2/2011 11:48:00 AM

I can find you 50 lbs. In a raw meet, you are required to have a single ply squat suit. Check out Inzer suits. They are reasonably priced and work well. Get one and practice straps down. Don't put the straps up until meet day. You'll BLAST out of the hole.

9/2/2011 12:45:44 PM

whey protein: where to get some decent quality stuff without paying $texas
?

9/2/2011 1:34:52 PM

maximus, we may have to train together sometime soon. Hopefully it will be out of my own facility, if I can get my ducks in a row. Right now, my goal is to get a 1200 total by March and be able to compete in the 165lbs weight class. Right now I am at 1095 at 170lbs.

BrickTop, costco has a great deal of delicious 100% whey. 6lbs for ~$40

9/2/2011 2:11:55 PM