Guys, we made it to CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/offbeat/2008/01/27/rupinta.krispy.kreme.wtvd

Wow.

1/30/2008 5:55:03 PM

*fist (full of doughnut) pump*

1/31/2008 10:35:13 AM

For the new page

1/31/2008 12:02:10 PM

What's the deal with the results? It has taken FOREVER both of the past two years, and the times were lost or screwed up three years ago. That's a definite area for improvement. I know it's a lot of people, but dang. . .

2/1/2008 1:00:14 AM

They couldn't even get the winner right. What do you expect?

2/1/2008 1:12:15 AM

I agree. It has taken too long every year. Being away, I don't know the process this year, except that I have always advised to think critically about the process in advance of race day.

I imagine the first part is to record which race numbers finished in what time slot. Then you'd correlate that with the registrants list, in order to get names and team names.

A major problem that has arisen each year is when complications arise regarding issuing people race numbers. This year for instance, because we had race numbers donated to us, there were duplicate numbers. We fixed that by adding a number to one of the duplicate numbers. Or when people register and are issued a number immediately, the person registering them has to note their name and corresponding number and enter that information into the registrant spreadsheet.

When there are multiple pre-race check-in days, exponential growth in the final days leading to the event, and having a dozen volunteers (not entirely all up to speed on the complexity of what is going on), breakdowns occur. The latest rev I saw had the rankings, but many race numbers did not have names to them. The organizers are working to resolve those errors.

Despite the reasons offered above, I believe that if the process is carefully thought through, examined, and people are trained well, it should be very doable to publish full and accurate race results within 3 days of the race. It's a critical targeted area for improvement.

2/1/2008 2:46:10 AM

I don't understand why you would need race numbers donated to you...it's like using used toilet paper. I mean, how hard is it to go to a laser printer and print out pages with consecutive numbers on them? And next time it might be prudent to consider chip timing, considering the number of people in this thing.

2/1/2008 8:26:06 AM

^ that may be one of the worst analogies i have ever seen attempted

2/1/2008 8:48:48 AM

So, is this some sort of "see who pukes last" contest a la Family Guy?

2/1/2008 9:01:45 AM

^^ well feel free to let me know how you think it makes sense to recycle used race numbers. (i.e. it makes as much sense as reusing toilet paper, dumbass) especially when you have duplicates. am i missing something here? are we not talking about those pieces of paper with big numbers attached to your shirt by a safety pin??

2/1/2008 9:14:25 AM

Indeed, it'd almost seem easier if they got about 1500 sheets of paper and printed a set of numbers per page. After printing, slice the paper in half and you have 3000 unique race numbers.

Maybe even print a small barcode on each that could be scanned really quick with a portable reader when each runner returns and automatically updates a database. So then like 30 mins after the race, just upload the db and you're done.

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 9:31 AM. Reason : -]

2/1/2008 9:31:09 AM

there's a video of it on the state homepage

2/1/2008 9:46:35 AM

Quote :

"Indeed, it'd almost seem easier if they got about 1500 sheets of paper and printed a set of numbers per page. After printing, slice the paper in half and you have 3000 unique race numbers."

this would be a major pain in the ass, and it wouldn't work. Printing on normal paper, the paper would get wet and the ink would run and the corners would tear and people would spill water on them and basically they would fall apart and fall off before the finish line. Race numbers need to be made of tyvek or some other waterproof, tear proof material. If there is no chip timing, they also need tear-away perforated tabs also with the race number printed on them so that the main race number is pinned to the shirt, then the tab with is torn away at the finish chute.

Given all that, real race numbers are not expensive, and it's not worth the trouble to use recycled ones. Plain ones with no tags are ~$0.25 each
http://www.runningcount.com/plainu.htm
or ones with perforated tags $0.29 each
http://www.runningcount.com/tearoffu.htm
(that's the first result I found on google, you might find them cheaper elsewhere)
at 3000 runners, that's ~$900 for tags, which seems expensive, but seeing as you're pulling in $15/person, it's very reasonable for $0.30 of each of those registrations to go towards a real number.


---------------------------------------------

The rest of this post is directed at the race organizers. I guess srvora is either the race director or has something to do with the organization. So srvora, read up.


I have not been out to the KKC yet, but from what I've read here and elsewhere, the race organization needs some real work. The off-the-cuff race-day planning might have been fine a couple years ago when it was just dozens or hundreds of runners out there to have fun and eat donuts, but this appears to have turned into a "real event" with real media presence and people traveling to come to it, and as such needs to be run professionally. The organizers either need to bring in some help from people with experience organizing road races, or they need to outsource race management to a company that specializes in it, and there are plenty.

I've been to my fair share of road races and high school/college cross country races, and I know that once you start getting serious runners out there, the single most important thing to consider is timing and results management. People who drive for hours to get to Raleigh, or good runners who get slighted because their time or place was not properly recorded will get pissed. If you have a well-run system, though, you can have results compiled and printing within seconds of the last runner crossing the line, and have them online within hours. People coming to road races expect to be recognized for it. Winners expect to have an awards ceremony soon after the finish, so they don't have to sit around all day getting cold, and even mid-pack finishers enjoy seeing the winners and listening to times and such.

I do race timing and management for about 2-3 races per year, mostly smallish high school and college XC meets, and I know how much of a hassle all this is, and unfortunately I also know how upset people get (sometimes irrationally so, but often justified) when something goes wrong with the results.


To manage a road race with anything more than 100 people, these are the bare minimum requirements (and I'm probably leaving some things out):

1) individual, unique race numbers with pull-tags

2) Pre-registration and packet preparation, so people who pre-registered can pick up their race number and packet the morning of the event.

3) Day-of registration, where it takes only a minute or two for people to register and receive a unique number

4) Race Management Software, like Hy-Tek's Meet Manager or anything equivalent. You cannot manage a road race with a spreadsheet. Meet management software will manage all your registrations, including different races or categories, and will assign competitor numbers and generate rosters. It will manage the results by allowing you to enter times and competitor numbers separately, and it will merge them for you. It will create results automatically separated by gender, by age group, by category, etc. It will allow you to move people around, DQ people, etc. In short, you must have it.

5) A well defined and designed chute. The finish line need to be well defined and clear to the runner. It should be wide enough to accept several runners at the same time. However, soon afterwards, it need to narrow down to single-file width. Runners will come across the line then quickly go into the single-file portion of the chute in the order they came across the line. Volunteers (which gloves) should stand at and around the line, inside the funnel part of the chute, and make sure people enter the single-file part of the chute in the correct order. They will then walk in single file through the end of the chute. The chute should be long enough to accommodate lots of people without them backing up back to the finish line.

6) If you're using pull-tag numbers, volunteers should be at the end of the chute pulling numbers as the runners walk by. The pull-tags will have a large hole in them, and the tag-puller will pull them and string the numbers on a wire or string. This is how you keep the finishers in order. It should also go by quickly so runners don't have to stand around in the chute - they just keep walking, someone pulls their tag, and they leave the chute. Also, it can be helpful to have someone with a pocket-tape recorder calling out and recording the numbers as they walk though the chute. This can be used as the primary or backup way to record the finishers in the computer.

7) 2 timers with printer-type stopwatches. You need to rent stopwatches with print outs on them, at least 2 of them, one for backup. 2 volunteers will run them, hitting the timer when each runner crosses. The stop watch will store the time internally, but also print it out on paper. You need at least two, one for backup, and they need to keep each other in check (e.g. when there is a pause in the runners, make sure they each have counted the same number of finishers so far).

8) A video camera set up behind the finish line, recording everything that happens at the finish line. This is mostly for backup, e.g. when some asshole comes up and insists that he finished next to Jane Doe, but he's not in the results. Then you just play back the tape, look for Jane Doe, and see if he's there.



Now that is the minimum for a small race. If you only have the above, then you still have to do these steps to get the results finished:

1) Transfer the times from the stopwatches to the computer somehow. The most primitive way is to use the print-out and manually re-type each time in. This is time consuming and cumbersome. I've done this for races with up to 400 people, and I would never use this method for anything more than that. It is tedious and error-prone. If you spend more money, then you can get a stopwtach that can download the times straight into the Meet Management Software via USB or serial. This is much preferred for >500 people

2) get the competitor finish numbers into the computer somehow. Again, the most primitive way is to use the tags that the volunteers gathered on the strings. Then you have to go through them (or someone else does and calls them out) and enter them one at a time manually into the computer. This is also tedious, but not as hard as entering all the times. The next step up would be if the tags had bar-codes on them and you used a bar-code scanner to scan the numbers in off the tags, if you had the right equipment and the software could handle it. Alternatively, you could have a scanner at the chute, and you could just scan the runners as they leave the chute, then there is no manual entry or anything.

(con't)

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 11:16 AM. Reason : .]

2/1/2008 11:12:52 AM

(con't from above)

Even if you do these two steps almost perfectly, there will inevitably be problems. Like you transfer all the finish times and competitor numbers, and they won't match up. Even with small races, you'll end up with something like 378 finish times and 375 finish numbers. What does that mean? Did your timer press the button too many times? If so then you need to delete a time, but which one? Or did someone cross the line, but leave the chute early? Or did someone cross the line but without a number, so your tag-pullers couldn't record him? With over 3000 people, I can't imagine how many errors you would have.



If all these requirements seem overwhelming (this isn't even everything that's required), then good - they should be. If you have 3500-5000 runner next year, you only option is to hire a race management company. The race management team will be expensive, but you (the organizer) will be happier and the runners will be happier. A race management team will have all setup in place to manage this amount of runners. If you spring for some more money, they'll go with chip timing.

Chip Timing alleviate so many of the problems with hand timing. Mostly

1) Times and finish runners are fully coupled, so you will never get too many times and not enough finish numbers.

2) the results are done automatically. As soon as a chip crosses the mat, the results are updated accordingly. Even before everyone finishes, they can start printing out results for the early finishers

3) you get accurate splits. This would actually be a lot of fun for the KKC, and would cut down on cheating. You put a mat at the start. Then there is another mat when they arrive at KK, recording their out-time. Then they eat their donuts and there is another mat as they exit KK, so you get the exact split for how long it took to eat, then there is another mat at the end, recording the total time and the final split.



So, it sounds like you need some serious help. Go into some of the running shops around town and ask the managers for references to race management companies. Try Inside Out, the triathlon store in Cary, Fleet Feet in Raleigh. They can hook you up with some race management companies. Also, send 1fastrunner a PM - he has a lot of hookups with local stores and managers.

Don't be scared by the cost - if you're pulling in $15/person and next year you get 4000 people, you'll have plenty of money to pay for the race management company and donuts and police and still have some left over for donation. If you don't hire a company, you might have more money to give to charity, but you'll also have a couple thousand pissed off runners and a lot of ill-will from them and the press because you're beyond your ability to manage such a large event.

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 11:17 AM. Reason : .]

2/1/2008 11:13:30 AM

i kinda want my results

2/1/2008 11:21:42 AM

Quote :

"The pull-tags will have a large hole in them, and the tag-puller will pull them and string the numbers on a wire or string. This is how you keep the finishers in order."

in the race they grabbed the tags and put them in a bag. I didn't understand why, I've never seen it done this way and you're clearly loosing the order.

But my exhausted doughnut-drunk self really wasn't going to say anything. I just assume they have a plan.

2/1/2008 1:09:10 PM

KKC organizers - Print out what Agentlion just posted and do it.. You're not going to get any better advice than that, period.

2/1/2008 1:10:47 PM

and one more thing - post the numbers for EVERYONE, not just people who finish under a certain time.

And don't go through and clear the street starting at the KK right after the 1-hour mark. I actually don't know if this happened or not, but it did back in 2006. I mean, people are still trying.

2/1/2008 1:12:37 PM

Regarding printing off race numbers: we already tried that that for the 2006 event. it started to rain and you can imagine what happened.

agentlion, wow a lot to digest in that post. and yes, i was there back in 2004 at the first KKC and served as a race director for the 2006 and 2007 events. i am in grad school at Stanford now so I'm currently serving as a senior adviser to the organizing committee.

The majority of what you posted isn't new to us at all. Many of those issues were discussed last year. The chute design and timing process you carefully described was implemented during last year's race.

As for chip timing, it was something that was heavily considered this year as well. We were in talks with an event management company who would provide such a thing, and got cost estimates. We were also considering managing the registration through Active.com, popular among running events.

Many of these suggestions involved additional costs, and at the moment these are costs that we are not ready to bear. Many many hours of discussion has taken place over these issues. My desire from an organizational standpoint is to keep the administrative overhead as low as possible so that more money can be given to the NC Children's Hospital.

There has been a lot of discussion, both on these boards as well amongst all the organizers of this race -- what kind of race should this be? This isn't a race with just hardcore runners. The majority of people (and we took data on this) signed up because they wanted to support a charitable cause, wanted to support an NC State tradition, or just thought it was a crazy idea and had to try it. When we weigh the cost/benefit analysis of implementing a whole set of costly improvements that hardcore runners want, in the current calculus it doesn't hold.

The compromise we've attempted is to provide accurate timing and verification for the top finishers -- the serious competitors who take that seriously -- while offering only approximate times for the rest. Several members of the organizing committee are serious runners.

As to mrfrog's comment about the bags: without chip timing system, it was the only way we could handle that density of people crossing the finish line at the same time and still have a record of what minute they finished in. Indeed, the person who was stringing the numbers said that it would have been impossible to continue to do so when the mass crush of people arrived.

This race will continue to evolve. What I've stated here isn't set in stone -- indeed, other organizing members believe differently. I am simply trying to provide you with the way I have approached it. Next year's organizers might decide to implement chip timing, which I think is a poor decision. We'll just have to wait and see what this race becomes.

2/1/2008 1:47:14 PM

i was operating under the assumption that you were recording numbers somehow, but what do you mean? obviously the numbers wern't stringed up in order, so as I'm sure you recorded times somehow (all a black box to me, however's fine), but what good are those few bags of pull-tags doing you?

You say approximate times, but are people beyond the first ten going to get times at all???? How??

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 2:03 PM. Reason : ]

2/1/2008 2:02:58 PM

Quote :

"There has been a lot of discussion, both on these boards as well amongst all the organizers of this race -- what kind of race should this be? "

Absolutely - this is a critical question. And maybe you have a good answer for it, but that answer needs to be apparent to every person who registers for the race.

If you want it to be a fun, relaxed run for charity, then that needs to be fully disclosed to every registrant, and the expectations of the race need to be properly explained. As soon as you give people a race number, if you have a start/finish line, a starting gun, and a page on your website that says "RESULTS", then the expectation has been set for every runner to get an accurate result and you must follow through with that.

If you are unable or unwilling to spend the time and money on getting results done professionally, then don't half-ass it. Don't bumble around and pretend like you're going to give accurate results, including time and place when you're just not able to do so.

Quote :

"The compromise we've attempted is to provide accurate timing and verification for the top finishers -- the serious competitors who take that seriously -- while offering only approximate times for the rest. "

That's great, but again, it all comes down to expectations. I see nowhere on the website where it says: "The KKC is a fun-run for charitiy. In order to maximize our charitable donations, official scores and times will not be kept. We will post the top-10 finishers and your times. If you complete The Challenge in under an hour, though, you get a T-Shirt and we will put your name on the website!"

If you put up something like that, and people still choose to sign up, then they can expect nothing more. If you claim to host a Challenge that is in the form of a road race, then it must be managed as one.

2/1/2008 2:05:20 PM

From website:

Quote :

"Please stay tuned as we post the rest of the results as soon as we can finish sorting through them!"

This indicates that we will have a list of times and places for people who ran the race. They had this last year, so it seems like a fair evaluation of the situation to say that they have it under control. However, if that does not happen at all, i agree, that would be a small disaster.

2/1/2008 4:09:18 PM

mrfrog, good question. I wasn't clear earlier. From what I was brief on, what we did was to use the stringing of tear-aways as long as possible until it was no longer feasible to do so. We then switched to the bag method, with each bag representing a minute (ie, time) of finish. Thus, we have the race numbers of the N number of people who finished in each X minute of the race (ie, 34th, 35th, 36th, etc).

And to the general comments of agentlion and others, please don't think I (for it is I who is speaking at this point, with a loose association to the current organizing committee) am dismissing your suggestions. This kind of discourse is exactly what is needed for us to critically examine each aspect of the race. You are correct -- the expectations of how finish times would be handled was not made explicitly clear during registration. This is a problem that should be rectified. It was largely an artifact of not critically examining the complexity of this component ahead of time (something I continued to remind the organizing committee they should do, and early on).

As a small token defense, I would contend that a race that involves running 4 miles and eating dozen donuts and featuring so many creative and funny costumes is one that is likely to have lower expectations regarding 100% accurate results than people just coming out for a good time and have fun. Indeed -- the race course itself wasn't even 4 miles! Why? That is the most runner-accommodating course the Raleigh Police Department offered to close down as the lowest price to us. We received comments this year with people saying how they liked they could bring baby strollers, or bikes, or rollerblades, or pets, etc. We aim to be an inclusive group and help bring the community together for something crazy, fun, and special -- all for a good cause.

2/1/2008 4:37:44 PM

I think it's great that you've managed to have ~50% of the registration fees going to the NCCH. That is great work.

That said, next year I honestly think you need to spend more money. The NCCH doesn't care how many people show up, the amount of money your raise helps them. If the marginal cost for accommodating 3000 more runners is higher, you're still helping your cause a lot more by accepting that cost, getting more people out, getting more coverage, and most importantly, raising more net money. I think this epically applies for next year, b/c you're going to need some MAJOR footwork in order to sustain good growth. But you can do it. You should.

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 7:32 PM. Reason : ]

2/1/2008 7:32:23 PM

someone pm me on how to get my results the fastest

2/1/2008 7:42:26 PM

mrfrog, we are open to ideas of ways we can increase turnout and to increase revenue streams. i don't see how adding chip-timing or an accurate or costly timing system accomplishes that in the most cost effective way.

one thing we tried hard to get this year was a big clock like those used in XC meets. that way people could see their time as they finish. after making more than a dozen calls, we couldn't get it in time.

2/1/2008 8:36:49 PM

Yeah, i did notice the absence of a big clock. Sadness.

2/1/2008 8:40:49 PM

One other observation:

The Sponsors and News pages on the website remain identical to last year. The Media page is not updated either. Shouldn't that serve as an area to cull content as it is posted? This thread has tons of links to stuff people might like to find in a centralized location.

I don't think most Challengers would mind putting up $20 per person to have a better-executed competitive aspect.

[Edited on February 1, 2008 at 11:19 PM. Reason : ]

2/1/2008 10:59:31 PM

David,

Yep. You're right. Believe me, stuff like that frustrated me as well. Last year, we had two tech/web savvy guys. This year, the committee had none. And it showed, didn't it.

2/2/2008 3:59:51 AM

I've run in several races, mostly in high school, and a few during college. I think the organization could use some work, but waiting over a week to get race results is ridiculous.

2/2/2008 10:07:47 AM

The Krispy Kreme challenge was mentioned in the Denver Post today in the Oddball section of the Sports page

[Edited on February 2, 2008 at 11:26 AM. Reason : .]

2/2/2008 11:26:13 AM

i want my results...i'm not sure if i mentioned that yet, but i'd love to have my results...i mean i know i finished at like 59 minutes and like 55 seconds but still i'd like to see if thats what they got for me

2/2/2008 11:33:29 AM

Quote :

"I don't think most Challengers would mind putting up $20 per person to have a better-executed competitive aspect."

Dude, I pay $20 to run normal 5k races. You're not going to drive everyone away by charging another $5. It's great that they made it cheap and all, but seriously, for next year, $5 more on the registration could allow for accurate timing and more money to the charity.

2/2/2008 12:57:58 PM

dag yo, where are the results

2/2/2008 3:15:48 PM

even 2 bucks more would cover the cost, heck prolly a dollar

2/2/2008 3:17:04 PM

$15 for a dozen donuts, a race, a hat, and a shirt is a steal yo.

2/2/2008 7:16:13 PM

yeah - make it $20, have $3 of that additional $5 go towards a professional race management team with chip timing ($9-10k i think is about minimum for a chip-timed event - maybe i'm wrong, though), then they'll still get $2/person extra for profit or charity or whatever

2/2/2008 7:27:17 PM

i think it's still cool to keep costs down for the kreme puffs and whoever isn't fully partaking in the stuff. It's just fair for there to be a gradient.

Also, I'm saying this as a challenger. The indirect costs of going to a race, that saturday morning, the training before it, driving there, and the reward of completing it really make a modest race price of 15-20 pale in comparison for someone who's really into it. If someone agrees to do a whackjob challenge like this, they are not very price sensitive.

2/2/2008 7:45:28 PM

i agree y'all, i never waited for results this long ever...high school, college, recreational. this is kinda ridiculous. i think a lot of people won't be coming back next year cuz of this.

[Edited on February 2, 2008 at 8:42 PM. Reason : ]

2/2/2008 8:42:25 PM

Quote :

"The compromise we've attempted is to provide accurate timing and verification for the top finishers -- the serious competitors who take that seriously -- while offering only approximate times for the rest."

That's bullshit. If you guys weren't planning on keeping accurate times that should have been highlighted all over the fuckin site.

[Edited on February 2, 2008 at 9:01 PM. Reason : .]

2/2/2008 9:01:14 PM

why don't you whine about it some more

2/2/2008 9:24:00 PM

buy a watch.
press button at start of race.
press button at finish.

2/2/2008 9:34:39 PM

yeah what ^ said is a good alternative to people actually keeping times

2/2/2008 9:39:01 PM

^^ which would have been done if there was a TIMES WILL BE APPROXIMATED disclaimer

2/2/2008 9:54:36 PM

Quote :

"Yep. You're right. Believe me, stuff like that frustrated me as well. Last year, we had two tech/web savvy guys. This year, the committee had none. And it showed, didn't it."

If I would have known y'all needed one, I would have volunteered my time for free. I do web dev for a living. I'd be happy to take over next year or whenever y'all get going again.

2/2/2008 10:26:39 PM

It's a race where you eat a fucking box of donuts in the middle. If you didn't think it was going to be largely casual, you have no common sense.

2/2/2008 10:48:48 PM

Quote :

"It's a race where you eat a fucking box of donuts in the middle. If you didn't think it was going to be largely casual, you have no common sense."

exactly. i dont understand why people have to compete to the EXTREME at everything in life. can't you just NOT take something so seriously for once?

2/2/2008 10:50:44 PM

dude, this thing has gotten quite competitive over the years.

2/2/2008 11:27:05 PM

^^ exactly

after reading all this bitching about a goddamn 4-mile-and-donuts run, i hope they throw all this chip timing etc out the window and just keep it the way it is.

tell everyone ahead of time that that's the way it's going to be, if you want to time yourself buy a watch, and just have fun.

2/2/2008 11:49:07 PM

i def think chip timing is a bad idea. the number of additional people we would attract for having chip timing does not make the cost worth it.
and about the times, it sucks they are late, but seriously, who's comparing times in the KKC outside the top finishers. people are glad just to have finished, and since they told you or not if you made it under an hour, the exact (or approximate minute) you finished is just the cherry on top of your 12 doughnuts and sweat.
i think its more likely for people to care about if you finished under the hour, then what your exact time was. i couldn't care if some guy finished 5 seconds or 5 minutes ahead of me, we're both finishers.

if a disclaimer on the website is what'll makes everyone come back, so be it. but i think chip timing is def not worth the expense.

2/3/2008 2:31:54 AM