Ernie

people make different decisions, but something like the liability policies of a company are not likely to change.

he didn't go on the walkabout. locke's point was to not let boone know he was a cripple. how boring does it sound to say "hey i'm crippled and can't do shit. LOL! now talk to me this entire plane ride". the writer's goal was to make you think, if even just for a second, maybe locke can walk in this alternate realm.

2/3/2010 10:27:23 AM

That is exactly what I said

2/3/2010 10:28:39 AM

I think jacob is an other

2/3/2010 10:34:00 AM

So, my theories/conjecture:

- The murder of Sayid is exactly as it appeared. The guys in the temple did in fact murder him, but only because Jacob/MiB can only take over a dead body, they can’t do it to a live one. The guys in the temple knew exactly what they were doing. Jacob is now in Sayid’s body.

- Desmond has gained the ability to travel through time/the different timelines at will. I think he is crossing through the different timelines trying to figure out what each one is doing, and what is going on in them. I think he knew Jack and has all of his memories, but has to travel to the different timelines to see how “fragmented” everything is, in order to put a plan together to fix the broken timelines.

- Juliette is dead in the “Island” timeline, but not in others. She was moving back and forth between the timelines while she was in the hole, which is why she told Sawyer they should have coffee and go dutch, and also told Miles that “it worked”. She saw Sawyer in another timeline and someone says those exact words, which will trigger something in “Alternate Sawyer”, acting as Sawyer’s constant, to try and repair the timeline fragments.

- There is a third “entity” aside from Jacob/MiB that is currently inhabiting Richard’s body. All three of them (there may also be more) were shipwrecked on the Black Rock, probably the first inhabitants of the island, ever. They are stuck there.


[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 11:28 AM. Reason : .]

2/3/2010 11:27:28 AM

I really don't think that they were all on the Black Rock... isn't the boat that Jacob/MiB are looking at from the island, next the the full statue supposed to be the Black Rock?

v ah ok that makes much more sense

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 11:37 AM. Reason : v]

2/3/2010 11:32:53 AM

Yeah sorry, I misstated the last one, I dont think they were all on the Black Rock, but I think Richard is not "Richard", but another entity that has taken over his body. The Richard that was on the Black Rock is dead.

The entity that is controlling Richard came from the same origin as the Jacob/MiB



[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 11:36 AM. Reason : .]

2/3/2010 11:34:46 AM

Anything inhabiting Ben?

2/3/2010 11:48:11 AM

I think because Ben ages, he is actually real ben.

2/3/2010 11:51:19 AM

ben is inhabited by a dead gay man, as evidenced by the stabbing

2/3/2010 11:52:18 AM

Do you think Jacob, MiB, and Richard represent good, evil, and neutralitygood (respectively)?

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 11:53 AM. Reason : Richard seems more good than evil]

2/3/2010 11:52:47 AM

i believe at the end jacob will be revealed as evil and the smoke monster as good. jacob is holding people captive on the island for eternity. Some type of prison for egyptian gods.

2/3/2010 11:54:04 AM

Quote :

"The murder of Sayid is exactly as it appeared. The guys in the temple did in fact murder him, but only because Jacob/MiB can only take over a dead body, they can’t do it to a live one. The guys in the temple knew exactly what they were doing. Jacob is now in Sayid’s body."

they had no idea Jacob was dead, and would need a new body, until after they did that to Sayid

Quote :

"he didn't go on the walkabout. locke's point was to not let boone know he was a cripple. how boring does it sound to say "hey i'm crippled and can't do shit. LOL! now talk to me this entire plane ride". the writer's goal was to make you think, if even just for a second, maybe locke can walk in this alternate realm."

thats what i took from it, when the plane landed the music kicked in, they wanted you to wonder if maybe he would get up, and of course he just sat there waiting for everyone else to leave.

2/3/2010 11:55:36 AM

have we 'seen' the death of MiB (like we 'see' jacob get stabbed to death) .. i can't remember

2/3/2010 11:57:25 AM

Quote :

"they had no idea Jacob was dead, and would need a new body, until after they did that to Sayid"

They may not have known that Jacob was dead yet, but I believe they knew they were murdering Sayid. I think the note probably instructed them to do so.

2/3/2010 11:58:59 AM

Quote :

"they had no idea Jacob was dead, and would need a new body, until after they did that to Sayid"

^Agreed, who knows what the note actually says? It could have said "if these guys show up at the temple, it's because I instructed them and I have been killed. You will need to sacrifice someone so that I can come back and take over their body"

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 12:04 PM. Reason : ^]

2/3/2010 12:04:08 PM

i don't think so, i think you just have to be in the spring for a certain amount of time for it to work, it was obvious they were waiting for the sand to run out of the timer,

^and it def did not say he had been killed, or else they wouldn't have acted so crazy as soon as they really did find out he had been killed a few minutes later

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 12:05 PM. Reason : $$$]

2/3/2010 12:04:15 PM

So what is more ~

Ben's stabbing motion or Kenny Powers' throwing motion?

Its pretty close, but I got with Ben

2/3/2010 12:05:36 PM

There could be enough sands in the hourglass for them to sacrifice someone. We're all just making guesses, but I don't necessarily believe they were definitely trying to heal Sayid.

2/3/2010 12:05:38 PM

the guy put his hand in the water and it didn't heal. also the water should be clear for healing. fishy.

2/3/2010 12:11:41 PM

Quote :

"i don't think the others who died would matter. i think it's all going to come down to the people jacob touched (jack, locke, kate, sawyer, hurley, sayid, jin, sun) and joining their timelines."

Yeah, that's what i was thinking at first. But Locke, who jacob touched, is dead as far as we know. So, that kinda throws a kink in the idea of sending everyone he touched back to the alternate time-line, right? Unless they bring him back somehow.

Quote :

"i was immediately thinking that jacob might have been somehow "reincarnated" into sayid's body like the smoke monster was using john locke's appearance"

That's exactly what I was getting at. No idea, but just seems like it could be possible that it's Jacob reincarnate or something. And if Jacob is really some sort of good guy... I don't think he's done just yet.


I like the idea/theory that Sayid was sacrificed. The kung fu master (that's what i'm calling him) knew the spring wasn't healing - he checked it. And still put him in there. If it's not gonna heal a little cut on your hand, it's not gonna heal a gunshot wound to the abdomen.

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 12:21 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2010 12:14:05 PM

assuming locke == smoke monster

sayid seems like an odd choice to embody jacob. If anything Locke would embody Jacob as we know him currently.

2/3/2010 12:21:11 PM

^^agreed. If the water is clear and healing then help these people, b/c they aren't dangerous and i'm ok. But if the water is brown, then i'm dead, sacrifice one to bring me back.

but if that's the case the reaction later on about discovering jacob's fate wouldn't have been so big. god i love this show



^huh?

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 12:24 PM. Reason : add]

2/3/2010 12:23:30 PM

^^ i don't think there are any assumptions about it any longer. He said it to Ben after killing every one.

[quote]sayid seems like an odd choice to embody jacob. If anything Locke would embody Jacob as we know him currently.[quote]

What? Locke is dead. Locke didn't know Jacob any better than sayid, jack, kate, hurley, etc. Actually, Hurley would know him best because he's seen and talked to him multiple times. But hurley's not exactly the guy I would want to take the form of. Plus, Sayid was toast anyhow. The theory is that they may have just finished him off so Jacob could go ahead and take his body.

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 12:27 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2010 12:23:30 PM

I put that there as a qualifier for my statement that Sayid seemed like an odd choice to embody Jacob.

I mean Locke vs Sayid?

2/3/2010 12:27:16 PM

sure, why not? Sayid is a bad ass.

2/3/2010 12:28:41 PM

Quote :

"The kung fu master (that's what i'm calling him)"

Dogan is his name in the show, best line of the night btw, "I dislike how english tastes on my tongue"

2/3/2010 12:31:14 PM

Quote :

"I like the idea/theory that Sayid was sacrificed. The kung fu master (that's what i'm calling him) knew the spring wasn't healing - he checked it. And still put him in there. If it's not gonna heal a little cut on your hand, it's not gonna heal a gunshot wound to the abdomen. "

Exactly.

The note told the kung fu master (I love that nickname for him) to do something, and I don't think he is the kind that questions instructions.

If the note said "Put him in the water for the full treatment period", he would have done it, whether the water looked right or not. The important thing to take away is that Jacob knew what do to, and had laid out the instructions/plan way before the events happened.

I think eventually, we will see the "Losties" off the island, and the entire show will close with the same scene we saw between Jacob/MiB looking at the Blackrock, only in today's time period. Meaning that the entire war between them actually gets them nowhere, but it will just continue to go on.

2/3/2010 12:35:36 PM

it would be epic if they bring real locke back to the healing pool and he comes back to life to finally find his purpose: to defeat jacob's nemesis/fake locke

2/3/2010 12:37:36 PM

Pretty sure that guy was Japanese, so probably not kung-fu

2/3/2010 12:38:21 PM

Come on, this is TWW, everyone that looks oriental is generalized and stuffed into a nice little stereotype box.

2/3/2010 12:41:45 PM

^^ yeah, but "master of unknown martial art" doesn't have the same ring to it. cold have been judo, aikido, or about a dozen other martial arts which originated in japan. Kung-fu is the catch-all for the average person.

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 12:44 PM. Reason : ^]

2/3/2010 12:43:19 PM

i know kung-fu /keanu

2/3/2010 12:45:40 PM

After the kungfu guy and glasses guy read the note hurley gave them, didn't the glasses guy say something like, "If your friend dies we are in big trouble"

...so doesn't that go against the premise that they knew they were murdering him?


also...MiB/Locke tells someone "I just want to go home".

that also leads me to believe that jacob may be the bad guy here and is keeping people on the island

2/3/2010 12:47:38 PM

or the temple is his home and Jacob and his cronies banished him from it.

2/3/2010 12:48:31 PM

^^You're assuming that the glasses guy is translating what the sheet actually said.

2/3/2010 12:50:49 PM

yeah i guess you're right. is it next tuesday yet

2/3/2010 12:53:38 PM

Quote :

"or the temple is his home and Jacob and his cronies banished him from it."

but fake Locke said something along the lines of, the irony of the situation is that while Locke is the only one that wanted to stay on the island, all i want to do is leave, the temple is on the island, i don't think that is his home.

2/3/2010 12:56:35 PM

it will be weird if jacob is possessing sayid's actual body when the guy possessing locke isn't in his real body (since we see locke's body in the coffin).

2/3/2010 1:01:31 PM

^good point, another hole in what i find to be an unlikely theory

2/3/2010 1:04:18 PM

- Locke's body isn't being possessed, the smoke monster is "manifesting" himself as John Locke.
- Sayid's body is probably being possessed by Jacob.

2/3/2010 1:05:54 PM

Quote :

"it will be weird if jacob is possessing sayid's actual body when the guy possessing locke isn't in his real body (since we see locke's body in the coffin)."

Quote :

"^good point, another hole in what i find to be an unlikely theory"

it is just a theory. But even then, I'm not sure that's really a hole. We know jacob can leave the island. Doesn't seem like MiB can. So we already know they don't play by the same rules. Maybe, MiB can take the form of dead people. Maybe Jacob can take the bodies of dead people. Really no way to know at this point.


Regarding how unlikely it is: It's certainly a stretch. But what i believe will be unlikely is that Jacob is done. He's too big of a known, but little seen character to not play a major role this season. He let Ben kill him without a fight. I imagine he could have at least attempted to stop him if he wanted. So it seems like that may have been part of his plan. he saw Hurley a while back and gave him the guitar with the secret hidden note that said whatever it said way before Ben killed him. So, it seems he knew they would end up taking Sayid there or may end up doing so. I don't know, seems like Jacob is a step ahead of the game. So it wouldn't surprise me if he possess sayid's body and it was part of the plan all along.

Then again, it won't really surprise me if it turns out to just be Sayid. Point is, possession seems no more unlikely than Sayid coming back after being dead for however long that was.

2/3/2010 1:16:26 PM

there is no way in hell Jacob is done, he seems extremely important, we've known about him for many seasons, but didn't see him til the season finale last year, and we have seen him after he was killed, talking to Hurley, and we still know almost nothing about him.

but personally, i don't think Sayid is possesed by him, and i do think Sayid coming back from the dead after being submerged into a spring that is known to heal people is more likely than possession by someone that we have no evidence even has that sort of power, and theres no evidence that it has happened before in the show.

2/3/2010 1:24:04 PM

A little more support for the Sayid is possessed by Jacob theory...

Jacob saw Ilana in Russia when she was injured. Jacob asked an unknown favor, and she accepts. Ilana captures Sayid and brings him back to this island. Viola, now Jacob has a badass to possess to kick Smoke Locke's ass.

Few questions raised about the temple in this episode. Didn't the temple used to be the area where the smoke monster lived? Ben went into the Cerberus Chamber (under the temple wall) to let out the smoke monster to kill the Freighter people. Also, what with the mixing of ancient cultures? First we thought Egyptian, and now the leader of the Temple people is Oriental? Also the actual temple looks like a Mayan step pyramid.

2/3/2010 1:24:43 PM

Quote :

"he didn't go on the walkabout. locke's point was to not let boone know he was a cripple. how boring does it sound to say "hey i'm crippled and can't do shit. LOL! now talk to me this entire plane ride". the writer's goal was to make you think, if even just for a second, maybe locke can walk in this alternate realm."

whatever. it's pretty sophomoric to think they wrote locke on the plane to be a cripple who randomly starts up a conversation with a stranger, is a very nice guy, and lies through his teeth. what is his motivation for that? what would the writers accomplish by showing us that? I, for one, thought it was possible not that locke could walk but that he did go on the walkabout...

why is it so crazy to think that in the alternate universe things could be different?

Quote :

"The rules against disabled people wandering through the outback aren't likely to change"

says... you

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 1:30 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2010 1:27:18 PM

Quote :

"the destruction of the fertility statue did not stop the people from having babies on the island. i used to think this too, but eloise is doing just fine and the statue is destroyed in 1977 as well. Ethan was born post statue destruction. i believe the hydrogen bomb going off has more to do with it."

did we ever see the statue destroyed in 1977 though? the only time i think it was ever addressed was during this conversation in the season 5 finale:

sun: "what happened to the rest of the statue?"
ben: "i don't know. it was like that when i got here"
sun: "do you really expect me to believe that?"
ben: "not really"

he could've been telling the truth, or it could have just been another one of ben's lies. either way, ben's confidence is so shattered that he just doesn't give a shit about anything anymore. he might just continue to lie for the hell of it even though he has no motivation to do so since he no longer has power or influence over anyone. it's easily one of the best character arcs on the show.

Quote :

"i believe at the end jacob will be revealed as evil and the smoke monster as good. jacob is holding people captive on the island for eternity. Some type of prison for egyptian gods."

i don't think it will necessarily boil down to good vs. evil so much as light vs. dark, which goes alllll the way back to the very first episode where locke tells walt about the rules of backgammon. there are two sides: one is light, one is dark. before the season 5 finale that scene didn't have as much importance aside from the recurring theme of light and dark. after that conversation with jacob and MiB it seems likely that everything that happens is some kind of game or challenge for both sides to attempt to prove their point, jacob's (light) being that people can change and have free will and MiB's (dark) being that people can't change and are destined to kill, destroy, etc. i can see where you would think that there would have to be a good side and an evil side, but i just don't think it'll end up being that clear cut. and jacob doesn't appear to be holding anyone captive. people can and have left whenever they wanted.

Quote :

"Yeah, that's what i was thinking at first. But Locke, who jacob touched, is dead as far as we know. So, that kinda throws a kink in the idea of sending everyone he touched back to the alternate time-line, right? Unless they bring him back somehow."

well i had always assumed the people from timeline B would merge with their counterparts in timeline A so they could be on the island. but i guess they could merge and end up off the island with the knowledge of how to get back too. in that case, would locke even need a constant? it would almost seem like it'd be better if locke B doesn't merge with locke A because this locke doesn't seem to possess the negative traits MiB saw in him that made him a suitable host or whatever.

Quote :

"- Locke's body isn't being possessed, the smoke monster is "manifesting" himself as John Locke."

i had initially entertained the idea of MiB and the smoke monster being one in the same, but i decided against it because locke's body was still there. when the monster manifested itself as yemi it seemed to have taken his body because it wasn't in the plane when eko looked. and to manifest itself as alex in the temple it presumably must've taken her body. i also thought that christian was the monster too since his body was missing from the coffin. then again, the line of ash around jacob's cabin hadn't been broken when he appeared inside, so i guess it couldn't have been the monster.

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 1:39 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2010 1:35:31 PM

on Locke and the walkabout, maybe in this timeline he found a different company that would allow him to go, and so he went earlier and thats how he both really did go on a walkabout and is still on the plane, or maybe got refused again he just didn't want Boone to look at him differently knowing he was a cripple (which we've seen him have problems with in the past), either way, i don't think its very important right now whether he went on it or not, we know shits different in this timeline.

2/3/2010 1:44:18 PM

I think it's possible that the smoke monster started off as a "security system" or whatever you want to call it. I imagine the MiB started off as a natural counterbalance to Jacob, the darkness to his light, good to evil, that duality that has been a theme since the very beginning.

Jacob's line that he was killed by, "an old friend who grew tired of my company" tells me that they once had a balanced relationship/lived in relative harmony and then the MiB got fed up, impatient, lost faith in humanity, or whatever.

I don't think Jacob is inhabiting Sayid or using his body, or anything like that. The MiB can manifest himself as the smoke monster, as a dead person, or perhaps anything. However, we haven't seen Jacob as a "white smoke monster," and he was in consistent human form whenever we saw him in flashback interactions with the main characters.

I know they draw from multiple religions, but if you put stock the Christian themes: self-sacrifice & dying for sins (Ben: 'why didn't he fight back?), forgiveness, free-will (Jacob: 'It's your choice Hugo' and 'you have a choice, Ben'), resurrection, etc. then it's not unreasonable to think that Jacob could be resurrected without having to have a body or a sacrifice, a la Jesus Christ.

btw, these are just some of my thoughts, I'm not saying any of this did, will, or won't happen.

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 1:51 PM. Reason : disclaimer]

2/3/2010 1:48:15 PM

Quote :

"whatever. it's pretty sophomoric to think they wrote locke on the plane to be a cripple who randomly starts up a conversation with a stranger, is a very nice guy, and lies through his teeth. what is his motivation for that? what would the writers accomplish by showing us that?"

he might still be a little embarrassed about not being able to go on the walkabout, but the writers are trying to show that he's a different person who doesn't possess the same anger and helplessness as his counterpart in the other timeline despite the fact that he may have been refused in this timeline as well.

Quote :

"Also, what with the mixing of ancient cultures? First we thought Egyptian, and now the leader of the Temple people is Oriental? Also the actual temple looks like a Mayan step pyramid."

in the "enhanced" version of the season 5 finale on abc.com (it also aired last tuesday), they tell you that the island has been used by many different civilizations in the past, so the pyramid could certainly be mayan. and i think the oriental dude must have come on the black rock.

Quote :

"a la Jesus Christ."

i really hope the writers avoided the whole cliche christ figure thing. that shit is so played out. i'm gonna give them a little more credit until it actually happens.

[Edited on February 3, 2010 at 1:51 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2010 1:49:26 PM

Sayid is really dead.

Theyve said many times on the show that dead is dead, there is no coming back from that.

All the re-incarnations we have been seeing can be attributed to the smoke monster, or other factors, up to this point.

2/3/2010 1:55:01 PM

Quote :

"but personally, i don't think Sayid is possesed by him, and i do think Sayid coming back from the dead after being submerged into a spring that is known to heal people is more likely than possession by someone that we have no evidence even has that sort of power, and theres no evidence that it has happened before in the show."

True. But there's also no evidence that anyone can be brought back from the dead. And while it is supposedly a spring that can heal, they made a point to show us that it did not heal the guy's hand. So even if was used to heal people before, it wasn't healing at that point. So my thought process there is that Sayid is dead - whether it didn't heal him and they drowned him, or it did heal him and they drowned him. He then, after having no pulse and not breathing for some time, sat up and spoke. There's no precedent for people coming back to life. There is a precedent for supernatural stuff. So if I had to say which is more likely - Sayid coming back to life after being dead for over 20 minutes or so, or something possessing him - well, to be honest it's about dead even for me but the latter is certainly acceptable at this point.

Quote :

"Few questions raised about the temple in this episode. Didn't the temple used to be the area where the smoke monster lived? Ben went into the Cerberus Chamber (under the temple wall) to let out the smoke monster to kill the Freighter people. Also, what with the mixing of ancient cultures? First we thought Egyptian, and now the leader of the Temple people is Oriental? Also the actual temple looks like a Mayan step pyramid."

I think the others are people of various cultures.

Yeah, the MiB/smoke monster/locke and ben went there. Ben went fell down into that hole Jack and them stepped around in this episode, Locke disappeared, smoke monster showed up. and that was very recent. There were carvings which appeared to be of the smoke-monster. And he was there when the french team arrived.


I'm curious of why they weren't on guard already or why there wasn't ash around the entire temple or the temple wall. You have this thing (MiB/Smokey) that you're worried about, why not be prepared? They didn't flip out until they knew Jacob was dead. It was just recently in the temple walls and catacombs. So there was nothing stopping him from getting in even when Jacob was alive. At least there didn't appear to be.

2/3/2010 1:57:49 PM