Quote :

"Yes, and Hitler also had beliefs as to what life was "worthy". "

Every idea, ever, has beliefs on what life is "worth."

You're not seriously suggesting that you or other conservatives have a 100% pure value of life...?

5/29/2011 10:44:59 PM

Not at all. but dude seriously said that it was OK to kill people as long they aren't "worthy" of being alive. That is literally what he said. I can't think of anything more immoral than that.

5/29/2011 10:54:11 PM

Quote :

"Yes, and Hitler also had beliefs as to what life was "worthy"."

Don't you believe in the Death Penalty? Don't you eat animals? Seems to me that you're a hypocritical douche who has had the rug pulled out from under him and now no longer has a valid argument to make.

Quote :

"You've proven yourself capable of devaluing life, and deciding who is "worthy" of it."

I sure hope you've never killed a fly...

Quote :

"I don't have to. You are the one saying it should be legal to murder it. Burden of proof is on you."

I already explained my stance in a logical and methodical way. You have yet to show me what is wrong with my stance in a logical and methodical way. It's not my job to argue against myself.

5/29/2011 11:00:40 PM

Quote :

"Don't you believe in the Death Penalty?"

Hkmm, killing a hardened criminal versus an innocent child. Is that REALLY the comparison you want to make?

Quote :

"Don't you eat animals?"

Get back to me when animals are human or when it is unusual for animals to eat other living things.

Quote :

"I sure hope you've never killed a fly..."

Get back to me when a fly is human.

Quote :

"I already explained my stance in a logical and methodical way"

Yes. So did Hitler. And you both used the same reasoning.

Quote :

"You have yet to show me what is wrong with my stance in a logical and methodical way."

You have yet to show me why it is OK to murder an innocent human being

[Edited on May 29, 2011 at 11:25 PM. Reason : ]

5/29/2011 11:25:15 PM

Quote :

"Hkmm, killing a hardened criminal versus an innocent child. Is that REALLY the comparison you want to make?"

Yes, and Hitler also had beliefs as to what life was "worthy".

Quote :

"Get back to me when animals are human or when it is unusual for animals to eat other living things."

We don't need to eat other animals. There's no biological reason that makes eating other animals a necessity.

Besides, you said:

Quote :

"You've proven yourself capable of devaluing life"

When you yourself is devaluing life. You did not specify "human life."

Quote :

"Yes. So did Hitler. And you both used the same reasoning."

Ad hominen. Provide proof backing up your claims.

Quote :

"You have yet to show me why it is OK to murder an innocent human being"

Because they're not a human being, which I already explained...

[Edited on May 29, 2011 at 11:42 PM. Reason : .]

5/29/2011 11:36:38 PM

Quote :

"Yes, and Hitler also had beliefs as to what life was "worthy"."

I've made no statements as to what life is "worthy." You, however, have, mein Fuhrer.

Quote :

"We don't need to eat other animals. There's no biological reason that makes eating other animals a necessity."

Except for this damned thing called evolution.

Quote :

"Ad hominen. Provide proof backing up your claims."

What more proof do you need for the comparison than you, specifically, saying "it's OK to kill a human if it's not worthy of life"? exactly. You have NO argument at this point. You have no credibility on ANYTHING, now, because you have shown just what a shitty human being you are.

Quote :

"Because they're not a human being"

Let's see... Unique human DNA, and they are alive. Yep, that's THE FUCKING DEFINITION of a human being.

5/30/2011 6:35:30 PM

Quote :

"I've made no statements as to what life is "worthy.""

Oh really?

You've said that a fetus is a worthy life, a hardened criminal is not, a brain dead person is a worthy life. You've said plenty.

Quote :

"Except for this damned thing called evolution."

Right. We don't NEED to eat meat, as seen by all of the vegans in the world who survive perfectly without meat.

Quote :

"What more proof do you need for the comparison than you, specifically, saying "it's OK to kill a human if it's not worthy of life"?"

Another strawman. You're the one who's been saying that a fetus is a human. Not me. Time and time again I've asked you to prove to me that a fetus is a human. You've tried, yet each time I've rebutted you and now you're butt hurt and you have nothing else to say except calling someone Hitler. You've yet to show me that a 9 week old fetus is the same as a fetus/baby that is capable of surviving outside of the womb. You've yet to show me why a zygote right after conception is the same as you or I.

Quote :

"You have NO argument at this point. You have no credibility on ANYTHING, now, because you have shown just what a shitty human being you are."

You're right, I have no argument at this point because you have yet to actually refute anything that I've said.

Quote :

"Let's see... Unique human DNA, and they are alive. Yep, that's THE FUCKING DEFINITION of a human being."

I thought this was refuted... My hair has human DNA, the hair follicle is alive, yet it is not a human or a person.

5/30/2011 7:22:56 PM

Quote :

"You've said that a fetus is a worthy life, a hardened criminal is not, a brain dead person is a worthy life. You've said plenty."

Actually, I've said that all life is worthy, but way to play semantics, buddy. BTW, nowhere did I say a hardened criminal was not "worthy of life." woot!

Quote :

"Right. We don't NEED to eat meat, as seen by all of the vegans in the world who survive perfectly without meat."

And we also don't NEED to breathe this particular mix of air. But we do, and we do it damned well. Fact is, we evolved to eat meat.

Quote :

"Another strawman"

How, exactly, is it a strawman to say EXACTLY WHAT YOU FUCKING SAID? right, exactly.

Quote :

"You're the one who's been saying that a fetus is a human. Not me."

Yes, but no amount of you saying "2+2=5" will make it so. The damn thing has separate human DNA, yet isn't a human. Yeah, that makes PERFECT sense.

Quote :

"You're right, I have no argument at this point because you have yet to actually refute anything that I've said."

Says the person arguing that 2+2=5.

Quote :

"My hair has human DNA, the hair follicle is alive, yet it is not a human or a person."

BECAUSE IT IS A FUCKING PART OF YOU, DIPSHIT. THE FETUS IS NOT A PART OF THE FUCKING MOTHER, DIPSHIT.

5/30/2011 9:09:42 PM

Quote :

"I can guarantee you it doesn't. see how easy it is to spew bullshit?"

It's very easy for you to do it, but an egg does have DNA. It amazes me that you would just say such bullshit without looking into it in the least.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_DNA_only_found_in_sperm_and_ovum

Quote :

"Yes, it actually does."

Bullshit. There's a reason they call them "involuntary functions".

Quote :

"Someone needs to go back to biology class."

Why are you so set in not even looking these things up? I can forgive you for not knowing them, but to be so arrogant in your ignorance I cannot forgive.

5/30/2011 10:04:23 PM

Quote :

"It's very easy for you to do it, but an egg does have DNA. It amazes me that you would just say such bullshit without looking into it in the least."

It's a fucking haploid cell. By FUCKING DEFINITION it doesn't have full DNA, you fucking dolt. I'm sorry that you failed biology.

Quote :

"Bullshit. There's a reason they call them "involuntary functions"."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! what a fucking load of bullshit! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! you SERIOUSLY failed anatomy, dude. HAHAHAHAHAHA. just quit now. The brain still fucking controls their functions. The conscious mind does not. what a fucking moron. seriously, just shut the fuck up while you are ALMOST close to not being 30 fucking miles behind.

[Edited on May 30, 2011 at 10:11 PM. Reason : ]

5/30/2011 10:10:35 PM

Quote :

"Actually, I've said that all life is worthy, but way to play semantics, buddy. BTW, nowhere did I say a hardened criminal was not "worthy of life." woot!"

Oh, good.

Now I can go back to:

Quote :

"Don't you eat animals?"

Animals IS life, yet you say nothing about the murder of millions of animals daily!

And you are for the MURDER of "hardened" criminals. Again, hypocritical.

Quote :

"And we also don't NEED to breathe this particular mix of air. But we do, and we do it damned well. Fact is, we evolved to eat meat."

We breathe this particular mix of air because that is what is readily available to us. We do not NEED to eat meat, yet you say nothing about millions of animals being needlessly murdered but will stick up for a 1 week zygote...

Quote :

"How, exactly, is it a strawman to say EXACTLY WHAT YOU FUCKING SAID? right, exactly."

Really? Point me to where I EXACTLY said:

Quote :

""it's OK to kill a human if it's not worthy of life""

Quote :

"Yes, but no amount of you saying "2+2=5" will make it so."

Back at you.

Quote :

"The damn thing has separate human DNA, yet isn't a human. "

My hair has human DNA and it is not a human.

Quote :

"Says the person arguing that 2+2=5."

Still not an argument against the capability of independence being a valid requirement of determining whether a fetus/zygote can or cannot be aborted...

Quote :

"BECAUSE IT IS A FUCKING PART OF YOU, DIPSHIT."

I'll pull my hair out of my scalp. Will that satisfy you? It is no longer a part of me, dipshit.

Quote :

"THE FETUS IS NOT A PART OF THE FUCKING MOTHER, DIPSHIT."

Well, a fetus is connected to the mother through an umbilical cord, so really the fetus is more a part of the mother than my hair I pulled out is a part of my head...

5/30/2011 10:15:44 PM

Quote :

"Animals IS life, yet you say nothing about the murder of millions of animals daily!"

and I guess that lion eating a gazelle is also a murderer. we can go in circles!!! Moreover, it's OBVIOUS I've been talking about HUMAN LIFE. Or are you now suggesting that dogs should be able to vote, too?

Quote :

"And you are for the MURDER of "hardened" criminals. Again, hypocritical."

Sorry. Murder, BY DEFINITION, is the unlawful killing of a person. If the state is doing it, via fucking DUE PROCESS, then it;'s not murder, you twit.

Quote :

"We do not NEED to eat meat"

And yet, we evolved to do so. Hmm....

Quote :

"Really? Point me to where I EXACTLY said:"

ALL THROUGHOUT THIS GOD DAMNED THREAD. You have specifically said which human life is "worthy." I'm sorry that you are now backpedalling, mein Fuhrer. SIEG HEIL!

Quote :

"Still not an argument against the capability of independence"

and an infant isn't independent, either. OH SHIT!!! I JUST BROKE YOUR ARGUMENT

AGAIN

5/30/2011 10:29:41 PM

Quote :

"and I guess that lion eating a gazelle is also a murderer."

Except our laws apply to people...

Quote :

"Moreover, it's OBVIOUS I've been talking about HUMAN LIFE."

Be specific.

Quote :

"Murder, BY DEFINITION, is the unlawful killing of a person"

A zygote/fetus is not a person:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person

Quote :

"A person (plural: persons or people; from Latin: persona, meaning "mask")[1] is a human being, or an entity that has certain capacities or attributes associated with personhood, for example in a particular moral or legal context.[2] Such capacities or attributes can include agency, self-awareness, a notion of the past and future, and the possession of rights and duties, among others."

There is no self-awareness, notion of the past and future, ect.

Quote :

"And yet, we evolved to do so. Hmm...."

Apparently you don't know what the definition of "need" is. Being capable of doing something does not mean it is a necessity. If eating meat was a "necessity," please explain to me how vegans can live and be healthy without eating meat?

Quote :

"ALL THROUGHOUT THIS GOD DAMNED THREAD. You have specifically said which human life is "worthy." I'm sorry that you are now backpedalling, mein Fuhrer. SIEG HEIL!"

AGAIN! POST A FUCKING LINK TO IT! This is the second time you're trying to put words into my fucking mouth through your assbackwards way of "inferring" whatever you want from what someone said...

Quote :

"and an infant isn't independent, either. OH SHIT!!! I JUST BROKE YOUR ARGUMENT"

I feel like we've been through this and that you have no recollection of the previous page...

Quote :

"Wow. It's like you just completely ignore what I'm saying... Let me dumb this down for you. If you rip the fetus out of the mother and it can't live (and by live, I mean it cannot live with the aid of life support, a clean room, modern medicine, ect), then it is not capable of independence."

Quote :

"Still not a full body, like a fetus is. DOH!!! you fail AGAIN! But, yes, let's REALLY compare a fucking HAIR FOLLICLE to a FULL HUMAN BEING. yes, that REALLY MAKES GOD DAMNED SENSE."

Now you're changing the goal posts... You said "DNA" and "life" is what made it a human... You said nothing of a body.

But now you're bringing in the concept of a "body." Please define what "body" is so I can destroy that notion for you. I'll start. At the moment of conception, a zygote is a single celled organism and does not have a body...

Quote :

"Only you would argue that something with completely different DNA is a body part."

I never said that it was a "body" part, did I? Nope. Another strawman again. I said it was a part (IE, attached) to the mother... I did not say that it was a "body part." In fact, in my ENTIRE previous post, I never even used the word "body." So what is this? The third time you've tried building a strawman. You must be getting desperate.

5/30/2011 10:48:59 PM

Quote :

"Except our laws apply to people..."

Yep, and Hitler said that Jews weren't people. Keep making yourself good, mein Fuhrer. But, yes, a separate human being, with human DNA, that is alive, is not a person. yep. pure brilliance, mein Fuhrer.

Quote :

"Be specific."

Be specific about obvious stuff? REALLY, mein Fuhrer?

Quote :

"A zygote/fetus is not a person:"

Quote :

"Yep, and Hitler said that Jews weren't people. Keep making yourself good, mein Fuhrer. But, yes, a separate human being, with human DNA, that is alive, is not a person. yep. pure brilliance, mein Fuhrer."

Quote :

"If eating meat was a "necessity," please explain to me how vegans can live and be healthy without eating meat?"

Yep. let's just ignore evolution, mein Fuhrer.

Quote :

"AGAIN! POST A FUCKING LINK TO IT! This is the second time you're trying to put words into my fucking mouth through your assbackwards way of "inferring" whatever you want from what someone said..."

So, when you said "it's not worthy of protection," what, exactly, did you mean, mein Fuhrer? Are you incapable of remembering YOUR OWN WORDS, mein Fuhrer? Does "not worthy of protection" not mean "we can kill it, because it's not worthy of protection," mein Fuhrer?

Quote :

"I feel like we've been through this and that you have no recollection of the previous page..."

Ironic, coming from the person who can't seem to remember HIS OWN WORDS, mein Fuhrer

Quote :

"Now you're changing the goal posts... You said "DNA" and "life" is what made it a human... You said nothing of a body."

Keep comparing a hair follicle to a human body, mein Fuhrer. It makes you look really smart, mein Fuhrer.

Quote :

"I never said that it was a "body" part, did I"

did you forget this, mein Fuhrer?

Quote :

"so really the fetus is more a part of the mother than my hair I pulled out is a part of my head... "

"part of the mother," i.e., "BODY PART," mein Fuhrer?

5/30/2011 11:08:45 PM

Quote :

"Yep, and Hitler said that Jews weren't people."

Please explain to me what makes a Fetus/Zygote equal to me if it is not capable of surviving outside of the womb? It is developmentally incomplete.

Quote :

"Yep. let's just ignore evolution"

Yup, just ignore the argument and cop out.

Quote :

"it's not worthy of protection"

Actually, I specifically said:

Quote :

"You're compounding the problem by not allowing them to fix the issue at no harm to any worthy life."

So, close enough.

Quote :

" what, exactly, did you mean"

It=fetus/zygote....

You accused me of saying:

Quote :

"it's OK to kill a human if it's not worthy of life"

I never said that. That is your strawman.

I know you've been trying to say fetus/zygote=human being that is eligible for protection under the same laws as you or I, but you have yet to logically prove to me that a fetus/zygote is the same as you or I.

Quote :

"Keep comparing a hair follicle to a human body, mein Fuhrer. It makes you look really smart, mein Fuhrer."

Keep ignoring the point and continue the childish name calling, it's really hurting my argument...

Quote :

"did you forget this"

Not at all. There is a physical connection between the fetus and the mother. Remove this connection too early and the fetus dies. Does that make the fetus a body part? I don't think so. It does make it a part of the mother.

Doctors replace hips in people all of the time. Does that hip not become a part of the person, even though it is not a body part?

I'm sorry if you're too stupid to understand that something can be a part of you without being a body part...

5/30/2011 11:25:23 PM

Godwin's Law was achieved in this thread. I think it is pretty much done now.

5/30/2011 11:48:04 PM

^ I was trying to think of what it was called! LOL!

Yeah, I would say that the thread is done when it has devolved into aaronburro doing nothing but spewing more crap from his keyboard, wearing out his CAPS LOCK and calling me or anyone else mein fuhrer because they don't agree with his viewpoint.

Oh man, he gonna be mad when more and more people favor abortion and when it becomes a necessity rather than an option...

[Edited on May 30, 2011 at 11:52 PM. Reason : .]

5/30/2011 11:51:49 PM

Quote :

"It's a fucking haploid cell. By FUCKING DEFINITION it doesn't have full DNA"

It, like any other cell, has DNA. I suppose now you're going to do some sort of backpedal that by saying it "didn't have DNA" you actually meant it "didn't have full DNA". How expected.

Quote :

"The brain still fucking controls their functions. The conscious mind does not."

Nice backpedal, in the original post you said "mind".

[Edited on May 31, 2011 at 12:12 AM. Reason : ]

5/31/2011 12:11:51 AM

Quote :

"Please explain to me what makes a Fetus/Zygote equal to me if it is not capable of surviving outside of the womb? It is developmentally incomplete."

equal to you? not very much. Deserving of protecting its life? Everything.

Quote :

"I never said that. That is your strawman."

And the only thing you can do is to say "it's not human", even though it very much is. If it's not human, then what is it? It has human DNA, it is very much a separate entity from the mother, and it is very much alive. is it a mouse? Is it a turkey? Yep, it's a human. And you said it was not worthy. mein Fuhrer.

Quote :

"but you have yet to logically prove to me that a fetus/zygote is the same as you or I."

I'm not the one saying it is OK to kill it. AGAIN, the burden of proof for sanctioning murder should be on the one sanctioning murder.

Quote :

"It does make it a part of the mother."

So, again, something with completely different DNA is a "part of the mother." That makes 100% sense, dude. really. it does.

Quote :

"Doctors replace hips in people all of the time. Does that hip not become a part of the person, even though it is not a body part?"

Again, let's compare something inanimate to something alive. That makes perfect sense.

Quote :

"I'm sorry if you're too stupid to understand that something can be a part of you without being a body part..."

I'm sorry if you're so stupid that you believe something with completely different DNA is part of a separate person.

Quote :

"Godwin's Law was achieved in this thread. I think it is pretty much done now."

Only because the exact words of Hitler were used. I think it's perfectly OK to call someone out on that.

Quote :

"Oh man, he gonna be mad when more and more people favor abortion and when it becomes a necessity rather than an option..."

MURDER is never necessary, mein Fuhrer.

Quote :

"I suppose now you're going to do some sort of backpedal that by saying it "didn't have DNA" you actually meant it "didn't have full DNA""

In the context of what we were discussing, it was implied, and quite obvious. You were the one suggesting that an egg contained a full complement of DNA. Forgive me for not being specific enough for your semantic games.

Quote :

"Nice backpedal, in the original post you said "mind"."

Oh, god, I used a synonym. damn me to hell, I guess. care to explain your other biological gem, namely that sperm and egg undergo mitosis on their own?

[Edited on June 4, 2011 at 10:20 PM. Reason : ]

6/4/2011 10:20:10 PM

why do you keep saying mein Fuhrer?

6/4/2011 10:40:13 PM

Quote :

"equal to you? not very much. Deserving of protecting its life? Everything."

Not more deserving than protecting the bodily rights of the mother, which already exists and clearly is a person without having to equivocate or misuse any definition of the word.

Quote :

"And the only thing you can do is to say "it's not human", even though it very much is. If it's not human, then what is it? It has human DNA, it is very much a separate entity from the mother, and it is very much alive. is it a mouse? Is it a turkey? Yep, it's a human. And you said it was not worthy. mein Fuhrer. "

It's a human zygote/embryo/fetus. It's human, but not a human. Not a person. Just as an acorn is not an oak tree. It takes quite a lot more than human DNA and not being a turkey to be a person.

Quote :

"I'm not the one saying it is OK to kill it. AGAIN, the burden of proof for sanctioning murder should be on the one sanctioning murder."

By mis-defining it as murder, the onus is now on you to prove it's a person before you get to call it murder. I can't just say crushing a box is called murder, can I?

Quote :

"several comments about different, complete DNA being the key determination of whether an organism is different than another"

So are identical twins and clones the same person (non human animal individual in the case of current cloning tech) now? Uh-oh...

Also, are radiation victims whose DNA is damaged and changed different people at that point? Answer this by telling me what it is about a person that actually makes them different from another. And then tell me if a zygote has any of those qualities.


You know what? I'll spoil it for you.

Personhood is derived entirely from human sentience which is entirely dependent on a developed (and functioning) physical brain.

When you die, your corpse will have the exact same DNA as you do. Is it still you? If your brain dies, but we mechanically keep all of your organs alive, is it still you? Does any physical part of your body besides your brain make you the person that you are?

[Edited on June 4, 2011 at 11:16 PM. Reason : .]

6/4/2011 11:08:42 PM

Quote :

"equal to you? not very much."

If it is not equal to me, as you just admitted, then it is not protected by our laws.

Quote :

"And the only thing you can do is to say "it's not human", even though it very much is. If it's not human, then what is it?"

Pre-human.

Quote :

"AGAIN, the burden of proof for sanctioning murder should be on the one sanctioning murder."

Says you. Currently the laws allow for abortion, logically abortion makes sense for the long term viability of our race, logically abortion allows for people who made a mistake to correct it without hurting a person. I have explained my position, and all you've come back with to discredit my position is to call me Hitler.

You hold a very strict view with absolutely not room to compromise. What is it that you want me to prove? I've made very clear explanation of my views, yet you still try to twist and contort my words around to some how prove your point.

You've made statements that abortion should not be tolerated. In light of assassinations, executions, in which actual people are being murdered, what makes abortion worse or any different? Our military just recently killed Osama Bin Laden without a trial. We execute people out of revenge. Our laws permit execute just as it permits abortion, and according to you, abortion is the murder of another human just as execution is the murder of another human. Then we have laws that permit the murder of people who are brain dead and living on life support.

Quote :

"So, again, something with completely different DNA is a "part of the mother." That makes 100% sense, dude. really. it does."

In what way is it not a part of the mother? If a leech attaches to you and feeds off of you, is it not a part of you? If all you have to come back with is a sarcastic remark, then you would be best to shut the fuck up.

Quote :

"Again, let's compare something inanimate to something alive. That makes perfect sense."

Alive or not, it is still a part of the person...

Quote :

"Only because the exact words of Hitler were used. I think it's perfectly OK to call someone out on that."

That's a bold statement, considering he spoke German and everything I've said is English...

Quote :

"MURDER is never necessary"

Execution? Something you support.

Quote :

"Forgive me for not being specific enough for your semantic games."

You play many games with semantics.

6/4/2011 11:20:44 PM

I'd be curious to know if burro is also against in vitro fertilization given his intransigence.

6/5/2011 12:27:44 AM

He probably is.

He’s become quite the religious nutjob recently.

6/5/2011 11:55:58 AM

Quote :

"You were the one suggesting that an egg contained a full complement of DNA."

No, I never suggested that. You stated "No, an egg, as far as I can remember, doesn't even have DNA." I then assured you this was incorrect, you then assured me that it is correct. Do you agree with me that eggs and sperm have DNA? It's difficult for me to talk to you when you keep completely changing your argument.

Quote :

"Oh, god, I used a synonym. damn me to hell, I guess."

Perhaps you don't realize that you made the exact same mistake you just tried to call me out on in this post right?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! what a fucking load of bullshit! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! you SERIOUSLY failed anatomy, dude. HAHAHAHAHAHA. just quit now. The brain still fucking controls their functions. The conscious mind does not. what a fucking moron. seriously, just shut the fuck up while you are ALMOST close to not being 30 fucking miles behind.

Should I say something similar?

Quote :

"care to explain your other biological gem, namely that sperm and egg undergo mitosis on their own?"

I never said that.

6/5/2011 12:33:04 PM

Jesus Christ.

I just want to say a few things:

1. The term "full set of DNA" doesn't even make sense. If you're trying to argue it doesn't have a full set of chromosomes, then fine.

2. The fetus is attached to the mother not only through the umbilical cord, but technically by the placenta as well (trophoblast).

3. I think a few of you need to review meiosis vs mitosis.. I seriously couldn't even follow a few posts.



This whole thing makes me wonder how aaronburro would feel about PGD.


AND OMG PLEASE TELL ME YOU'RE JOKING

Quote :

"No, an egg, as far as I can remember, doesn't even have DNA."

WHAT. THE. FUCK.



This is for everyone arguing about the biological and prenatal processes






(This picture is meant to be used when explaining teratogenic exposures, but you can stop arguing now about what starts when)

[Edited on June 7, 2011 at 12:10 AM. Reason : .]

6/6/2011 11:48:01 PM

I'm pretty sure by "DNA" aaronburro is referring to genotype.

But his grasp of primate embryology is surprising?

[Edited on June 7, 2011 at 12:08 AM. Reason : .]

6/7/2011 12:07:05 AM

Well even that doesn't make sense. People with chromosomal aneuploidies have genotypes, but they don't have the "full set" by his standards. Your genotype is just what makes you, you... and in reality, everyone has something missing - it just depends on where it falls for whether or not you notice the missing piece.

I think the real problem here is a few key individuals are acting like they're the kings of bio/genetics and are making it seem like they have a very basic understanding.. >_>

6/7/2011 12:12:42 AM

Quote :

"I think the real problem with the Soap Box is a few key individuals are acting like they're the kings of _____ and are making it seem like they have a very basic understanding.. >_>"

fixed it

6/7/2011 9:28:40 AM

the real problem is that the government should have dick to say about what a woman decides to do about her pregnancy. if she wants to get an abortion, that's her fucking decision. a decision between herself and people she trusts. abortions will happen regardless, so at the very least people who choose to have an abortion should have a safe place when the medical procedure can be performed. however in my opinion....

- abortions should not be government funded
- late term abortions should be illegal due to the health risks (unless something goes wrong with the pregnancy and an abortion must be performed to save the mothers life).

god dammit i get tired of people meddling in other people's personal business. stay the fuck out cock suckers!!

6/7/2011 9:37:57 AM

Quote :

"Perhaps you don't realize that you made the exact same mistake you just tried to call me out on in this post right?"

I guess the word "conscious" doesn't strike you at all, does it...

Quote :

"I never said that."

uhhh yes, yes you did.

Quote :

"No, I never suggested that."

yes. yes you did. it's quite clear that the DNA in a sperm/egg is vastly different from the DNA in a living person. thus the reason sperm/egg have a specifically different term used.

Quote :

"the real problem is that the government should have dick to say about what a woman decides to do about her pregnancy. if she wants to get an abortion, that's her fucking decision."

I know. how dare we have the AUDACITY to protect innocent life. FUCK THAT CHILD for having the gall to be formed by the actions of two other people.

6/8/2011 4:45:16 PM

"NC House tentatively approves new abortion rules"
http://www.wral.com/news/state/nccapitol/story/9698915/

Quote :

"The bill would prohibit an abortion unless a woman is provided with state-specified information about the physician at least 24 hours in advance."

I assume "about" means from?

6/8/2011 5:36:06 PM

And hopefully Purdue will veto the shit out of it should it pass the senate.

Better yet, I hope the republicans are dumb enough to run on abortion in 2012 so they can get blasted back into obscurity after everyone sees how catastrophically they failed to deliver on those "jobs, jobs, jobs" they promised from 2010.

6/8/2011 6:01:06 PM

OMG.


The sperm and egg do not have "drastically different" DNA than yourself. DNA recombination only mixes up the DNA you provide, but it doesn't = drastically different seeing as it all came from yourself. Sometimes there isn't even recombination for some chromosomes after crossing over is supposed to occur.


The sperm and the egg are called different names because they have completely different properties. NOT because of what's in them. You can't even argue the sex chromosome part because sometimes a male passes on the same type of sex chromosome as the female (obviously).

The main differences between a sperm and an egg include when they are created, the amount created, motility, their abilities to pass on certain types of disorders (i.e., mitochondrial inheritance can only be passed through the mother)...


I really don't understand how you could even act like the different DNA thing makes sense. Different eggs from different women have different DNA.


Jesus Christ. Please stop trying to act like you're a biology whiz kid.



Are you trying to argue that because the sperm and egg are haploid, that makes their DNA vastly different??? If this is truly what you're saying, please realize that many, many, MANY people have duplicated parts or missing parts of their DNA and it's not a perfectly put together set of 46 chromosomes. And I think you need to use a separate term instead of "different" - it's just a larger amount of information in a zygote versus a sperm or egg.

[Edited on June 8, 2011 at 9:05 PM. Reason : .]

6/8/2011 8:56:41 PM

so you are saying that the average cell in your body only has 23 chromosomes? I'd call that "drastically different". but that's just me

6/8/2011 9:04:57 PM

^ Read my edit


No, it is not different DNA. It's a larger AMOUNT of DNA. That is not the same as what you're saying.


Even if you want to try and argue that the genes from a mother and father interact in new ways with the child, many genes are silenced and are only expressed via the paternal chromosome or the maternal chromosome.



I seriously have no idea what your point is to that whole argument.

6/8/2011 9:06:18 PM

so, you've got 23 chromosomes hanging out by themselves in your cells? got it. as do I. as does every other human...

[Edited on June 8, 2011 at 9:22 PM. Reason : ]

6/8/2011 9:21:49 PM

Stop trying to make yourself look good, because you honestly just look like a dumbass who doesn't read.

6/8/2011 9:28:40 PM

Quote :

"I seriously have no idea what your point is to that whole argument. "

6/8/2011 10:09:21 PM

I'd be curious to know if burro is also against in vitro fertilization given his intransigence.

6/8/2011 10:14:46 PM

He probably thinks intransigence is a hereditary disorder.

6/8/2011 10:22:25 PM

Quote :

"He probably thinks intransigence is a hereditary disorder."

aaronburro doesn't think

6/8/2011 10:57:54 PM

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/15/usa-abortion-alabama-idUSN1510860220110615

Quote :

"Alabama Governor Robert Bentley on Wednesday signed into law a bill banning abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy, making it the fifth U.S. state to enact such a restriction this year. "I believe that life begins at conception and I signed this bill to further commit my promise to protect the life of an unborn child," Bentley, a Republican, said in a statement. The law goes into effect on Sept. 1. The measure, which was approved by large majorities in both chambers of the Republican-controlled Legislature, makes no exceptions for cases of rape or incest. Alabama state law currently allows abortion up to the stage of fetal viability, usually between 24 and 26 weeks gestation. The new law makes it a felony to perform an abortion after 20 weeks -- when some controversial research suggests a fetus can feel pain -- unless the woman's pregnancy puts her at risk of death or substantial physical harm. It also requires physicians to report each abortion to a state database and compile an annual report of abortions. The new restrictions are similar to ones enacted in Idaho, Indiana, Kansas and Oklahoma earlier this year and a law passed in Nebraska in 2010, said Elizabeth Nash, public policy associate with the Guttmacher Institute, an organization focusing on sexual and reproductive health. The Guttmacher Institute estimates that 1.5 percent of abortions in the Unites States occur after the 20th week. The institute's research on induced abortions states that 88 percent of abortions in the U.S. take place in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. "By signing this bill, Governor Bentley shows a deliberate disregard to women's well-being and creates a law that poses a serious threat to women's health," said Olivia Turner, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Alabama. (Editing by Colleen Jenkins and Greg McCune)"

This makes me so unbelievably angry

There are so many women in this state who are referred for fetal anomalies that you can't even see on an ultrasound until closer to 20 weeks, and yet those would not count under this new law... it used to be 21 weeks and 6 days (basically up to 22 weeks) which allowed women to have time to have an amniocentesis or a detailed ultrasound


They're also trying to pass a bill that essentially states any woman who has a miscarriage could be tried for homicide if there is any suspicion she tried to do it herself, no matter how early



ibtaaronburropsychofit

6/15/2011 11:01:10 PM

I hope that Alabama enjoys their increased crime rate in ~20 years!

6/16/2011 12:25:24 AM

Quote :

"They're also trying to pass a bill that essentially states any woman who has a miscarriage could be tried for homicide if there is any suspicion she tried to do it herself, no matter how early"

Seriously? They're going to go after women who've had miscarriages?

6/16/2011 12:28:17 AM

It's Alabama, so I don't expect them to be all that keen on history, but perhaps someone should give them a quick lesson on Romania...

6/16/2011 12:49:15 AM

Yes, seriously

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2011/06/abortion_bill_in_alabama_legis.html

Quote :

""If passed, it would effectively ban abortion throughout Alabama. It would, also, likely engender any number of lawsuits trying to figure out what on earth it means on other aspects of state law," said Alexa Kolbi-Molinas, a staff attorney in New York for the Reproductive Freedom Project of the American Civil Liberties Union. She said the bill, if passed, might even subject a woman who had a miscarriage to investigation for manslaughter or another crime. "Any time a woman had a miscarriage, she could face a criminal investigation," Kolbi-Molinas said. Williams, who is a lawyer, disagreed. "There is no crime for a natural event such as a miscarriage," he said. "It's the same as if a child got sick and died due to a disease; no one is going to hold that parent responsible." "If someone purposefully aborts a child, that's a different story altogether." Williams said."

The problem is, how the F would they even be able to tell? What if there was a genuine accident, or the woman didn't know she was pregnant and took a medication that really messed up the pregnancy, etc etc etc etc

6/16/2011 12:50:05 AM

By their logic, wouldn't either of those cases be manslaughter anyway? Accidentally killing an infant is still a crime.

Quote :

"Williams, who is a lawyer, disagreed. "There is no crime for a natural event such as a miscarriage," he said. "It's the same as if a child got sick and died due to a disease; no one is going to hold that parent responsible.""

He's not a very good lawyer. Precedent abounds for parents being liable for their children dying due to preventable illnesses.

[Edited on June 16, 2011 at 10:53 AM. Reason : .]

6/16/2011 10:25:22 AM

I was referring to accidents that were out out of the woman's control or like if she took a certain medication before she knew she was pregnant

Great last point though... haha

6/16/2011 1:18:56 PM

Quote :

"I know. how dare we have the AUDACITY to protect innocent life. FUCK THAT CHILD for having the gall to be formed by the actions of two other people."

Maybe burro's arguments make sense directed to the invisible baby killing advocate in the thread. The rest of us never blamed the fetus for existing. The fact that it exists isn't an argument against the claim that we will all be better off allowing every abortion desired by the woman. Did 2 people do something irresponsible? Yes if you think it's bad to have unprotected sex with no ability or desire to raise a child then sure, they were responsible, now the fetus has to pay for their mistake by dying. I'm fine with that. In fact, that's a great idea because of all the problems it will prevent.

People need to stop being cordial to these pro-life anti-thinking people.

6/16/2011 2:00:04 PM