Ground wars with inadequate ground forces to quell a jihadist insurgency, and ill-defined purpose. Neither one is a Stalinist state in 2013. Both were poorly planned, resourced, and executed. Explain how they are the same.

3/10/2013 1:00:23 PM

Oh, so we are assuming that we would be able to contribute a much larger fighting force to this war and will define our goals clearly and go into it having a pre-established exit strategy and won't spend all of our wealth on really terrible, failed nation-building projects unlike every other modern conflict? Because... yay America?

3/10/2013 1:04:29 PM

Those are all independent considerations IF the choice was ground war rather than air and missile strikes. I'm saying two misexecuted wars does not mean the US is completely incapable of any even limited intervention. In fact, North Korea being so centally controlled means the situation in many ways would be far simpler than Afghanistan. Of course nuclear development and a humanitarian crisis are two complicating factors.

It should be obvious that the only reason North Korea exists is China, and they appear to be growing more and more isolated from China.

3/10/2013 10:07:40 PM

You're right a population with little education or exposure to the outside world, who has been taught all their lives that America is the enemy and the cause of their troubles, will simply give up when they are being bombed or their leader killed. I mean, remember when we took down the statue and ended the Iraq war?

3/10/2013 10:15:28 PM

I'm no war-mongerer, thought we had no business in Iraq, hate it when the US plays world police, think we need to get the fuck out of Afghanistan, etc

N. Korea though is place where I think we just need to drop the big one and shut that pencil dick Kim Jong-un the fuck up.

[Edited on March 11, 2013 at 12:42 PM. Reason : l]

3/11/2013 12:35:50 PM

would it bother you that that would kill millions of innocent people? if it weren't for that small nuance, i'd agree with you.

3/11/2013 12:55:01 PM

Bombing and killing millions of Japanese didn't get them out of the War until the Soviets started defeating them in land battles, it takes more than bombs alone.

3/11/2013 1:23:23 PM

Quote :

"won't spend all of our wealth on really terrible, failed nation-building projects unlike every other modern conflict?"

There is one key difference here though: South Korea. More so than the United States or China, South Korea has the moral and political authority to go into a future North Korea and re-establish order. I'm not advocating an attack on North Korea by any means, but it is a very different scenario from an Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran.

3/11/2013 1:43:45 PM

Quote :

"Bombing and killing millions of Japanese didn't get them out of the War until the Soviets started defeating them in land battles, it takes more than bombs alone."

I've had long TSB arguments in the past where someone says that and I say that it was the nuclear bombing that brought them to the peace table, and not the Soviet declaration of war and subsequent land grab in Manchuria. That argument goes on for several pages and no one can come to a consensus.

However, I find myself growing old and lack the stamina to have that conversation again.

Good day.

3/11/2013 2:58:54 PM

Why not just say "both" and move on? The dropping of two mysterious superweapons obliterating everything in their paths (and not knowing how many more of these weapons we had), plus the declaration of war from the Soviet Union and immediate Soviet gains in Occupied Manchuria were more than enough to force the Japanese Empire to surrender. The bombs might not have been enough (which is why we had Operation Downfall ready), and the Soviet declaration of war might not have been enough. It took both, so let that be that.

As far as North Korea goes, I find it both sad and hilarious that a country can claim to end a 60 year cease fire, act beligerently towards all its neighbors, and announce its intent to fire a nuclear warhead at the United States of America, and nothing happens. It shows just how big of a joke that country is. Imagine if China or Iran openly declared they would launch a nuclear warhead at the US. But since it's nutty ol' NK, no one cares. Simply astonishing.

With that said, NK would be an easy cleanup compared to Iraq/Afghanistan due to South Korea being right there ready to re-establish the RoK. It would take a while, but it would turn out like Vietnam in the end, just not with the godless commies winning.

That is, of course, assuming Korea doesn't become a nuclear wasteland. Which it shouldn't, but you never know.

3/12/2013 9:51:06 AM

We were killing firebombing the shit out of Japan a long time before we dropped any nuclear bombs, but whatever

Quote :

"There is one key difference here though: South Korea. More so than the United States or China, South Korea has the moral and political authority to go into a future North Korea and re-establish order. I'm not advocating an attack on North Korea by any means, but it is a very different scenario from an Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran."

they will need American money and military to do that

3/12/2013 10:07:45 AM

Some US military support (primarily on the intel/ISR end), but the South Koreans have the capability to handle a post-DPRK North Korea. If anything, anyone else (China, the United States), would probably create a greater backlash, cost more in terms of time, manpower.

Questionable too just how much money that the ROK would require. They in the top 15 or so global economies and have tremendous financial, industrial resources. They also have a very strong vested interest in owning the process and doing it right; unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, where you're propping up an entire stand-alone country, here, the North is being reabsorbed into the South. Therefore, the South has a vested interest for investing into and building up the North correctly.

3/12/2013 11:30:30 AM

just equate it to West/East Germany

3/12/2013 8:04:20 PM

The GDP disparity is much, much worse than East & West Germany.

3/12/2013 8:05:49 PM

The GDP of the GDR was GR8.

3/12/2013 8:31:57 PM

Dennis Rodman makes a few great points. At this point the US is just playing the bad guy role to continue the perpetual state of war. Why not reach out to the new guy through basketball and begin to develop a relationship with N Korea. He grew up in Switzerland as a Jordan die hard fan. He's obviously not his father and grandfather.

3/14/2013 11:07:48 PM

He also went to college in the US. Hopefully he has a more open mind due to all the western exposure. However, as much as we would want to think that he is a dictator that does what he want to do, there is a party of people making decisions there.

3/15/2013 1:04:04 AM

Unfortunately, the detonation of a nuclear device and the threat of nuking the United States mainland has created a minor setback in Rodman's efforts for rapprochement.

3/15/2013 1:41:03 AM

Typically, when you are at war and your opponent refuses to negotiate peace, you threaten with nukes. Seems like common sense to me.

3/15/2013 1:48:25 AM

No, typically when you have a long standing, 60 year old armistice, one normally does not destroy their warships unprovoked, shell their villages and then threaten to nuke them. If the goal is to establish peace, disrupting it is typically counterproductive and will result in a suspension of negotiations.

I would argue as well that North Korea's actions are considered extreme even by their own allies. The Chinese, who've bent over backwards to keep the North propped up, went so far as to condemn the North Koreans for their latest actions in the United Nations despite having a record of vetoing previous efforts. China has a lot to gain from a permanent peace and has constantly called for all sides to stay calm, but even they concede that the North is the provocative one here.

3/15/2013 10:26:59 AM

All of that hostile action was by his father. We should not just lump them into one person.

We have not tried to have talks with them or negotiate peace.

3/15/2013 1:02:07 PM

Yes, those two particular actions were under KJI's watch, but they were done with KJU prominently on display for both (praising the naval base, touring the border areas). The fact that he's gone again on a recent boat tour of the same disputed waters and visited a similar artillery battery soon after threatening to nuke the United States clearly is an attempt to tie those decisions with his regime as well. The fact that he's taken those actions and soon after hinted at new actions is clearly a threat.

Also, the launch of the ICBM, the detonation of the nuclear weapon and the threats to the United States were by KJU. All this was even before the United States had any real opportunity to seriously engage the new regime. I would argue those are clear signals of the type of "negotiations" that the North wants: give us money, or we'll hurt you and your friends.

As a bonus, consider that even after the new South Korean President was elected and talked of some softening, the North pretty much began insulting and threatening her before she even took office would again indicate an effort to intimidate instead of negotiate.

I'm not overly hawkish when it comes to the North Korean regime; I fully understand what a disaster that could come from an escalation of tensions. However, the North clearly is signaling no desire for any real peace talks at this point. They've brushed off efforts by China to mediate through Six-Party Talks.

3/15/2013 4:14:29 PM

For the most part yes im done watching a lot of korean politics now that im out of Seoul and realize its never gonna happen. We cant even have one good meeting.

My job is busy during the day and there's so many girls here I just dont have a lot of time to waste there anymore

But every time I look at this site there's a million people saying where is eman. Draws me back haha

I will still probably watch iran and syria though because they are great.

3/18/2013 11:42:12 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyapeCiOl9A&feature=youtu.be
givernment video
(not a joke)

3/19/2013 5:12:23 AM

^http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/19/world/asia/north-korea-us-relations/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

3/19/2013 11:03:46 AM

3/20/2013 10:02:21 AM

jeez, foxnews is just terrible. we all know that north korea was probably behind it, but to put it that definitively in the headline immediately after it happens? poor excuse for "journalism".

3/20/2013 10:06:47 AM

THEYRE ON HIGH ALERT!

NEVER BEEN HIGHER!

CLAIMING ARTILLERY(?) STRIKES ON GUAM, ALASKA, AND THE WEST COAST IMMINENT.

THAT'S SOME INCREDIBLE ARTILLERY FOLKS.

[Edited on March 26, 2013 at 7:39 PM. Reason : GUAM IN DANGER]

3/26/2013 7:37:11 PM

Too bad Sarah Palin couldn't see them forming up from her house.

3/26/2013 8:00:38 PM

3/26/2013 10:39:08 PM

That's crazy how we both go to Man Mur.

3/26/2013 11:30:36 PM

Did you ask for the "Ben Haggerty" too?

3/27/2013 8:20:06 AM

^^ win

3/29/2013 8:08:47 AM

North Korea better calm the fuck down. If they make us break all their shit then you know we're going to be paying to fix it just like with Iraq and Afghanistan. That shit gets expensive.

3/29/2013 11:22:52 AM

I just want to know where he got his Dr. Evil outfit.

3/29/2013 11:59:57 AM

He is treading dangerously close to the "going to get himself killed by 30" line. I bet half his own military doesn't even respect him. At least his dad wasn't always a complete psychopath.

3/29/2013 12:47:03 PM

I'm getting a little worried. Seems like the US media is doing a good job.

3/29/2013 1:15:22 PM

N Korea is like the fat little kid on the play ground who thinks he is tough. He brags about his karate lessons, and his overall baddassery, and acts like a little tough punk to the other kids, but all he needs is for one kid to kick his ass and he will go home crying.

3/29/2013 3:36:47 PM

That's all good until they nuke Seoul

or Tokyo

or Okinawa

and we're all like... blah, we'll nuke them into the stone age... yeah, but one of these cities will be devastated in the process

3/29/2013 3:48:05 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/9960933/North-Korea-plan-to-attack-US-mainland-revealed-in-photographs.html

pretty funny. wonder if they did this on purpose.

Also, they may not have ICBM technology but they have a sizeable submarine force, couldn't they just park one of those in international waters and launch ballistic missles from there?

3/29/2013 3:54:04 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_North_Korean_ships#Submarines

3/29/2013 3:58:30 PM

some of those subs have the range, and could be outfitted with missles but I'm no expert. just surprising I haven't seen the possiblity considered in the news so far

Quote :

"The Strategic Rocket Forces operate more than 1,000 ballistic missiles according to South Korean officials.[40] North Korea acquired 12 Foxtrot class and Golf-II class missile submarines as scrap in 1993.[41] Some analysts suggest that these have either been refurbished with the help of Russian experts or their launch tubes have been reverse-engineered and externally fitted to regular submarines or cargo ships.[42] In both cases, the KPA would be within a proposed firing range of islands in the central Pacific Ocean and the Western coast of North America.[41]"

[Edited on March 29, 2013 at 4:26 PM. Reason : per wiki article ]

3/29/2013 4:20:58 PM

they would be better off trying to get one of those super-quiet Kilo class submarines from russia or china and putting one of their nukes inside it.

they are too stupid to launch a missile from a boat, but all they need to do is sneak it into a harbor.

3/29/2013 4:27:07 PM

I'm disinclined to believe that they could sneak a sub out of the Sea of Japan/East China Sea.

3/29/2013 4:33:39 PM

maybe it could be snuck under a cargo ship? who knows.

they arent blue water subs anyway i dont believe, but i suppose we can just wait for the next tom clancy novel to be sure.

3/29/2013 4:52:56 PM

Couldn't they smuggle a suitcase bomb across the Chinese border. From there it seems like they could easily hire a fake cargo ship to put it on. How many containers would they have control over? Nevermind, Kim bought the whole cargo line

/inception

3/29/2013 7:08:18 PM

3/30/2013 11:10:22 AM

Quote :

"Also, they may not have ICBM technology but they have a sizeable submarine force, couldn't they just park one of those in international waters and launch ballistic missles from there?"

Not possible. Submarine launched nuclear missiles are extremely complicated systems. Given that they don't even have sufficient miniaturization to fit their nukes onto a regular ballistic missile, I don't think there's any worry about them doing it with a submarine. Honestly, I don't even know if their submarines would be able to stray too far from North Korea to begin with given just how bad their logistics are beyond the peninsula.

Quote :

"Couldn't they smuggle a suitcase bomb across the Chinese border."

I don't think they've got it miniaturized for suitcase bomb either. They'd need to smuggle a cargo container into China and put it onto a ship. However, I don't know if the Chinese would let them get away with something like that, and if they did do it, it would guarantee the end of the regime.

4/1/2013 12:12:42 AM

4/1/2013 1:02:41 AM

The end of what regime? A bomb explodes in the middle of a city and how does it point back to NK?

4/1/2013 1:14:40 AM