^^^

you're arguing against a position I never took.

11/18/2010 1:15:54 PM

Quote :

"within reason"

This is what everyone is tripping over. I'm sure everyone can agree that we need some security at the airports. I'm sure we can all agree that we shouldn't be taking anal probes up our ass every time we fly either.

I happen to think that the scanners that flash a picture of me naked to some random donk is a little too much, but it's not gonna stop me from flying.

11/18/2010 1:18:31 PM

Quote :

"I'm sure we can all agree that we shouldn't be taking anal probes up our ass every time we fly either."

YOU DON'T OWN THE FUCKING AIRPLANE SO GET READY FOR THE ANAL PROBE

NRRRRRMMMMMMMMM *makes airplane noise as random TSA goon sticks a finger in your butt*

11/18/2010 1:19:35 PM

I'm pretty sure the airport has to purchase the equipment for tsa. Thus it's the owners choice and the airlines support it (the pilots may not but that's them).

All I'm saying is the people who don't like this shit better not be the same assholes that told people they can't allow smoking in their bar.

11/18/2010 1:22:13 PM

Quote :

"All I'm saying is the people who don't like this shit better not be the same assholes that told people they can't allow smoking in their bar."

IS THAT ALL YOU'RE SAYING REALLY

(hey guess what i oppose smoking bans)

11/18/2010 1:23:38 PM

nudity seems to be the root of all of this.

sometimes i wish we all werent all so modest. (dont worry i lump myself in this category)


it's just a body.

11/18/2010 1:25:08 PM

"Reasonable risk of harm" are you serious?

The body scanners wouldn't have prevented 9/11, the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, or the ink cartridges fiasco. Even if they did, the odds of being struck by lightning are magnitudes of order greater than that of a plane bombing or hijacking.

Ever heard of a cost-benefit analysis?

11/18/2010 1:25:09 PM

It's not just nudity, but your right to decide who sees you nude. You know...consent?

How would every one feel if the technological abstraction wasn't there? If to fly you and your family had to strip naked in front of 2-3 TSA officials and turn around a few times?

11/18/2010 1:27:37 PM

burn the tsa, burn the fed, kill everyone everywhere.

11/18/2010 1:27:43 PM

Quote :

"sometimes i wish we all werent all so modest."

I don't know about "we all". Ugly people should be modest.

11/18/2010 1:27:57 PM

I rarely look at what people say between threads for "gotcha" moments, but I was reading an other thread and saw this indy gem

Quote :

"Cigars and pipes are evil. They're just drug delivery systems invented by big tobacco to hook people and make money. I mean, how can we, as a society, allow corporations to profit off the sale of products until they prove their safety? Liberty? Consent? Bah, humbug. I say all cigars and pipe tobacco be banned until proven 100% safe and healthy. This message brought to you by the bipartisan coalition for a better America."

Haha gettin all pissy about tobacco regulations and probably about smoking bans in bars, but willing to let uncle sam tickle his twig and berries

Joie: I'm the last person on the planet to make a big deal about a naked body, but the ability to strip a person carries a lot of power with it. Also, a population who is conditioned to being strip-searched regularly by the government (and who has shown a willingness to put up with wire taps and all sorts of other ridiculous infringements into our privacy) is going to be even easier than this one to control

You'd think indy would appreciate that with all of his empty hand-wringing about the shortcomings of our two-party public-fuck-fest, but he has a reputation to uphold by being wrong and inconsistent all the time

Quote :

"How would every one feel if the technological abstraction wasn't there? If to fly you and your family had to strip naked in front of 2-3 TSA officials and turn around a few times?"

haha might even be better because the photos aren't be stored and printed for the amusement of drooling TSA workers

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:29 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2010 1:29:09 PM

Quote :

"It's not just nudity, but your right to decide who sees you nude. You know...consent?"

i dont think your catching what i am saying.

take a look at tribes in africa where they run around naked all of the time. they see the human body for what it is....a body.

now dont get me wrong im in no way saying that we should run around naked lol, but it would be nice if we didn't view the human body as so secretive.

and for the record i, too, am somewhat modest about my body so im not saying that this is the way i think either

Quote :

"Ugly people should be modest."

i think this exemplifies one of the main reasons "we" are

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:31 PM. Reason : .....]

11/18/2010 1:30:18 PM

So, not sure if it's been posted yet, but the "scanner" images of that naked girl were completely fake. Someone just grabbed some stock photos from a german nude modeling site and messed around with them.

Here's the response from the TSA's official blog:
http://blog.tsa.gov/2010/01/whats-wrong-with-this-picture.html

I like the way he posts the real scanner images as though they're totally okay compared to the fakes, even though they're clearly just as revealing.

11/18/2010 1:31:42 PM

I'm getting exactly what you're saying, and I'm saying it's completely possible to be 100% comfortable with your own body but still desire to choose who does and does not see you naked. In Africa, there isn't a cultural convention of drooling and oggling over whatever bit of flesh you can see, in America there is and it's an act of exploitation. If you go over to Africa and start staring at the women with one hand in your pants I think you might find them less than pleased.

11/18/2010 1:33:19 PM

McDanger seems smart enough to know that what I've said is 100% consistent. I guess he's trolling again....

11/18/2010 1:34:20 PM

Quote :

"take a look at tribes in africa where they run around naked all of the time. they see the human body for what it is....a body. now dont get me wrong im in no way saying that we should run around naked lol, but it would be nice if we didn't view the human body as so secretive."

I am not even close to being a puritan and I wish we could view the naked body the same way

Having somebody demand you to strip is completely different than being okay with being naked, being okay with being seen naked, and being okay with other people naked. Consent is definitely the issue here.

Quote :

"McDanger seems smart enough to know that what I've said is 100% consistent. I guess he's trolling again...."

Only to a hysterical, scared little American baby

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:35 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2010 1:34:32 PM

I personally believe that it's messed up but unless the dude who pats me down gets wood I'm cool. I'll bypass te scanners all day. Hell I'd be ok with a broad doing it too as long as it stays proffessional. I won't be scanned I don't want any more radiation blasted through me than I have to have btw flying is as bad or worse than their scanners in general.

Yes by shoving a bomb up their ass the terrorists have won making us all be groped on a regular basis.

Unfortunatly I'm not modest I don't rally care what people see touch etc I know I'm ok with myself regardless

11/18/2010 1:34:34 PM

Quote :

"All I'm saying is the people who don't like this shit better not be the same assholes that told people they can't allow smoking in their bar."

Well that's good because McDanger and I both argued like motherfuckers against that ban in its thread.

Of course, I'm not arguing very hard in this thread, but I'm totally agreeing with everything being said against the pro-police-state goons. I'm quietly agreeing very hard.

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:36 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2010 1:35:49 PM

Quote :

"Yes by shoving a bomb up their ass the terrorists have won making us all be groped on a regular basis. "

No no no no no no no.

No.

Completely wrong.

The terrorists have won because nobody is willing to stand up to irrational, power-grabbing governmental responses. That's how they won. Not by shoving a bomb up their ass, but by proving that Americans weren't really so jazzed about that personal freedom and liberty thing anymore.

11/18/2010 1:36:55 PM

yeah, ftr my posts are just ramblings of what goes on in my head.

nothing of true substance really

11/18/2010 1:37:23 PM

sumfoo1:

That's great for you but people who are comfortable with it aren't relevant. Do you think people who aren't comfortable with it are unreasonable for that? And there's thousands of TSA boners popping every day, but you don't care as long as it's not for you? Are you capable of thinking about anything outside of yourself?


edit: whoops, sorry, didnt notice your first sentence started with "i personally believe its messed up"

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:39 PM. Reason : whoops]

11/18/2010 1:37:32 PM

Quote :

" hysterical, scared little American baby"

Haha, he thinks I agree with the TSA body scanner....
...and he can't recognize sarcasm.

Explaining the role of government in terms of what's "reasonable" and "adequate" isn't the same as agreeing with every decision they make about what's "reasonable" and "adequate"...



(Are the rest of you getting trolled by McDanger, too?)

11/18/2010 1:38:40 PM

Quote :

"Haha, he thinks I agree with the TSA body scanner.... ...and he can't recognize sarcasm."

This is an honest mistake by my part. Have you seen how many libertarians have about-faced in this very thread? Are you really expecting me to know you well enough to pry your sarcasm apart from their honest defense of this crap? Either way I'm sorry for mistaking you for one of these folks

11/18/2010 1:40:00 PM

Yeah personal freedom...

My point is, if I make a rule that you have to be naked to come into my house. You can either:

A: stay the fuck away from that creepy foo1 guy
B: get naked

It should also be my right to control my property

11/18/2010 1:40:41 PM

lol, fair enough

11/18/2010 1:41:00 PM

i really REALLY like it when indy and McDanger argue with each other on teh intarwebs

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:41 PM. Reason : though it looks like it's about to become boring, again]

11/18/2010 1:41:20 PM

Quote :

"That's great for you but people who are comfortable with it aren't relevant. Do you think people who aren't comfortable with it are unreasonable for that? And there's thousands of TSA boners popping every day, but you don't care as long as it's not for you? Are you capable of thinking about anything outside of yourself? "

[quote]

yeah i don't think he was saying that it was solving anything.
we're just rambling and talking a "wouldn't it be nice" scenario.

11/18/2010 1:41:40 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L--cqAI3IUI

11/18/2010 1:42:20 PM

Quote :

"Yeah personal freedom... My point is, if I make a rule that you have to be naked to come into my house. You can either: A: stay the fuck away from that creepy foo1 guy B: get naked It should also be my right to control my property"

TSA doesn't own the airport

11/18/2010 1:44:14 PM

Quote :

"i really REALLY like it when indy and McDanger argue with each other on teh intarwebs"

lol... grow up. (no, really.)

11/18/2010 1:46:21 PM

Sorry but your house isn't subsidized by taxpayers, require immense land contracts and zoning exceptions, terrorize the surrounding people with noise and emissions, and content for airspace over the entire nation, and act as a vital component of free travel and business infrastructure.

Sometimes issues are more complicated than analogies a 3 year old can grasp, unfortunately this limits a lot of people's ability to think critically about subjects since they'd rather be pithy than nuanced.

11/18/2010 1:46:33 PM

I will repeat tsa also doesn't own the equipment.

They are hired to run the equipment.

11/18/2010 1:46:43 PM

Quote :

"lol... grow up. (no, really.)"

lol... whiny libertarian (no, really.)

11/18/2010 1:47:57 PM

Americans are too stupid for democracy.

11/18/2010 1:48:42 PM

Quote :

"Americans are too stupid for democracy."

this is true

a person is smart, people are dumb

11/18/2010 1:49:24 PM

When your house gets 14 billion in transportation subsidies I'll bend an ear to your analogies, until then why don't you go down to your houses basement and blow out the furnace pilot.

11/18/2010 1:49:40 PM

mcdanger and indy,

help me this (serious question)
i thought libertarian was a BROAD term to describe ones political party.
like very very broad.


am i wrong?

11/18/2010 1:51:42 PM

Quote :

"Americans are too stupid for democracy."

Wrong, they're just stupid enough. Did you honestly think democracy was for self-determination and not just an arena for corporate thought control lol

Quote :

"help me this (serious question) i thought libertarian was a BROAD term to describe ones political party. like very very broad. am i wrong?"

This question requires a huge answer, one I'm not really willing to give here and now. Libertarians are all supposed to share one thing in common, though, which is reverence of liberty. They either see liberty as the only value worth maximizing in public policy, or more reasonably, as the value with most priority.

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:57 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2010 1:55:30 PM

Quote :

"Sorry but your house isn't subsidized by taxpayers, require immense land contracts and zoning exceptions, terrorize the surrounding people with noise and emissions, and content for airspace over the entire nation, and act as a vital component of free travel and business infrastructure."

Fuck you.... Airports are not subsidized by tax payers... they're rented by airlines who are subsidized by tax payers.

Terrorize the surrounding people... shut up... airports are NEVER built in suburban areas.... suburban areas are build around them for cheap land and then complain about the noises and try to sue (fuck them too). I live in briar creek i know airport noises i know i pay less because of them... + i like watching the airplanes.

Emissions... living my I-40 is 100 times worse than an airport you know jack shit about planes shut your mouth before you hurt yourself. Jet fuel is kerosene you know like the INDOOR HEATERS.... yeah talk emissions now....

yes they do have people swinging from their nuts... not their fault is it??

11/18/2010 1:55:36 PM

^^^

There are "big L" and "small l" libertarians. "Big L" represents the political party, "small l" represents the philosophy.

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:56 PM. Reason : -]

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:56 PM. Reason : fucking grammar...how does it work?]

11/18/2010 1:56:01 PM

A libertarian is someone who will spend a weekend on tech support to get their computer fixed, talking to operators in 3 countries, none of whom understand English, be ultimately be told that they have to send the computer back for a Certified Upgrade for $800 or they'll void the warranty, then wait 12 weeks to get the new machine back and all their information is lost. Then on Monday they go to the DMV and because the line is long claim "GOVERNMENT CANT DO ANYTHING RIGHT LETS PRIVATIZE THIS SHIT"

11/18/2010 1:56:38 PM

Quote :

"am i wrong?"

You're not really wrong... "libertarian" is a very broad term.

...but there are some people (like indy, unless I'm mistaken) who have made arguments that only people of a certain set of beliefs are the true libertarians. Some libertarians believe that only their version of libertarianism is right. Some other libertarians are completely inconsistent in their beliefs and thus actually are wrong.


It's kind of like the way certain Christian denominations will claim that they are the only true Christians (many protestant sects, for example, denounce Catholics as being false christians with flawed beliefs). Only libertarianism doesn't involve quite as much dogma.

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:59 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2010 1:58:49 PM

generally libertarians believe in having the least amount of government necessary since the larger a government gets the more abusive to its citizens it becomes (ex: the TSA).

It is a very broad term though, and there are a wide variety of people who subscribe to the basic principle for a wide variety of reasons. Because of that when someone says "im a libertarian" most people tend to think of the crazy folks (ron paul) or the dumb folks(ayn rand) who dominate the press.

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 1:59 PM. Reason : s]

11/18/2010 1:58:59 PM

an actual libertarian is economically conservative and socially liberal.

aka doesn't want to pay welfare... doesn't care about gay marriage...

11/18/2010 1:59:47 PM

A libertarian is a guy who rolls in nothing but the finest purps

Quote :

"an actual libertarian is economically conservative and socially liberal. aka doesn't want to pay welfare... doesn't care about gay marriage..."

These people are just republicans that like to fuck and smoke pot, don't kid yourself

[Edited on November 18, 2010 at 2:01 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2010 2:00:21 PM

alright with the exception of

Quote :

"A libertarian is someone who will spend a weekend on tech support to get their computer fixed, talking to operators in 3 countries, none of whom understand English, be ultimately be told that they have to send the computer back for a Certified Upgrade for $800 or they'll void the warranty, then wait 12 weeks to get the new machine back and all their information is lost. Then on Monday they go to the DMV and because the line is long claim "GOVERNMENT CANT DO ANYTHING RIGHT LETS PRIVATIZE THIS SHIT""

you guys were helpful

11/18/2010 2:00:46 PM

Quote :

"Because of that when someone says "im a libertarian" most people tend to think of the crazy folks (ron paul) or the dumb folks(ayn rand) who dominate the press."

11/18/2010 2:01:59 PM

its kinda funny though because alot of the time ron paul votes the right way but for some really bad reasons.

11/18/2010 2:03:23 PM

Quote :

"These people are just republicans that like to fuck and smoke pot, don't kid yourself"

lol. i have on occasion identified myself similarly to this

11/18/2010 2:03:49 PM

Quote :

" Fuck you.... Airports are not subsidized by tax payers... they're rented by airlines who are subsidized by tax payers."

Wrong. 12 billion annually just for the small airports: http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/X-50%20Role_files/essentialairservice.htm

Quote :

" Terrorize the surrounding people... shut up... airports are NEVER built in suburban areas.... suburban areas are build around them for cheap land and then complain about the noises and try to sue (fuck them too). I live in briar creek i know airport noises i know i pay less because of them... + i like watching the airplanes. "

People who can't afford pricier homes are people too, not sure if you know this, and likely pay taxes. And homeowners do have to exist prior to airport building simply because its not feasible to staff them otherwise. And nobody cares what you like.

Quote :

" Emissions... living my I-40 is 100 times worse than an airport you know jack shit about planes shut your mouth before you hurt yourself. Jet fuel is kerosene you know like the INDOOR HEATERS.... yeah talk emissions now.... "

Airplane emissions account for 12% of transportation CO2 and 3% of total emissions by the US. Not to mention NOx, an ozone depleter, and water vapor that increases cirrus cloud cover.

Quote :

" yes they do have people swinging from their nuts... not their fault is it??"

It's a symbiotic relationship. Believe it or not, for every producer there is also a consumer.

Try not to be so rude next time you spout shit, big guy, it's unbecoming and unproductive.

11/18/2010 2:04:41 PM