Quote :

"Is my biggest argument against him. That's pedestrian at the NFL level, and even more so in college. Compare to Clarett (5.6), Lewis (5.5), Rodgers (4.8), Peterson (5.7) and McFadden (6.3) Frank Gore was ridiculous with 9.3, albeit on only 62 carries"

Most of those guys had offensive lines, which TA didn't. Granted, we had some OLinement at that time go pro, but they weren't a very good UNIT. That said, TA probably benefitted from Rivers scaring defenses to death also, so it's probably a wash.

Not that it would affect the average other than he would get to play more patsies, but TA didn't start the first 3 games of his frosh season at RB...I believe Greg Golden did.

[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 3:39 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2010 3:38:44 PM

king of the tub

7/29/2010 3:51:39 PM

T.A.'s School Records

All-time Records among Freshmen Only

#1 - Rushing attempts in 1 season: 245
#2 - Rushing yards in 1 season: 1,101
#1 - Rushing TD's in 1 season: 18
#3 (tied) - 100 yard rushing games: 5 (Clem, UNC, TT, UMass, FSU)
#2 - Receptions in 1 season: 42
#2 - Reception yards in 1 season: 354
#1 - All-purpose yards in 1 season: 1,455
#1 - Total touchdowns scored in 1 season: 18
#1 - Total points scored in 1 season: 108
#1 - Touchdowns responsible for (rush and pass) in 1 season: 18

All-time Records regardless of Class
#1 (tied) - Rushing TD's in 1 game: 5
#1 - Rushing TD's in 1 season: 18
#1 (tied) - Points scored in 1 game: 30
#1 - Total points scored in 1 season: 108
#15 - Rushing yards in 1 game: 178 (Clemson)
#7 - Rushing yards in 1 season: 1,101
#7 (tied) - Rushing attempts in 1 game: 32 (Texas Tech)
#2 (tied) - Rushing attempts in 1 season: 245
#6 - All-purpose yards in 1 season: 1,455

Note: T.A.'s 4.5 avg rushing yards per attempt during the 2002 season doesn't even rank among the top-15 all-time.

7/29/2010 3:52:37 PM

Umm, our O-Line was pretty dang good his freshman year. His problem was more his separated shoulders and the fact that he played with a cast on his broken wrist for much of the season.

Oh yeah, he still managed to run for 1,100 yards and catch for 350 yards despite this.

He was better than Clarett, but you get all the press when you play at OSU.

Also, I found this: http://thegreatentertainer.blogspot.com/2010/06/former-nc-state-running-back-ta.html

Quote :

"I knew then that we were a match made in heaven"

LOLOLOLOLOL

7/29/2010 4:00:28 PM

Great article on TA, thanks for posting that man!

7/29/2010 4:08:54 PM

you should email him!

7/29/2010 4:10:15 PM

TA was always hurt. Didn't Andre Maddox separate TA's shoulder before his freshman season? And then there was that thing TA had about puking after he scored TDs

7/29/2010 4:13:52 PM

puking before games because he was nervous

7/29/2010 4:24:58 PM

and not waking up on time for games and being late or fallin asleep in airports and missing flights.

7/29/2010 4:26:34 PM

Point is, lots of backs could run for 1100 yards if they got 245 carries

Most could rush for more than that

The touchdowns were mainly a result of opportunity

7/29/2010 4:29:02 PM

Shoot TA also benefited from a couple NFL players on the OL, and a strong passing game with Rivers and Cotchery. Berton was also an underrated TE on that team.

Also, he rushed for 1100 yards in what was it... 14 games? We were 11-3 that year, correct? That's less than 80 yards per game.

TA wasn't bad, but off the top of my head I'd take 4 RBs from the last decade of NC State football ahead of him. (Maybe) In order:
1)Andre Brown
2)Toney Baker
3)Jamelle Eugene
4)Ray Robinson (the maybe is because I don't know whether I want to put him here, or at #2)

7/29/2010 4:37:32 PM

Quote :

"Most could rush for more than that"

False

^
Did you actually watch him play when he was reasonably healthy? The only player on your list that is even debatable is Andre Brown.

[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 4:55 PM. Reason : f]

7/29/2010 4:48:57 PM

I kinda hate TA...he got my hopes up so high with his first year, then all he ever seemed to do after that was turn the ball over or break his arm

7/29/2010 4:59:55 PM

He was definitely a nice combo of bum and gimp. But he's also the most powerful runner we've ever had.

[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 5:02 PM. Reason : f]

7/29/2010 5:01:04 PM

Quote :

"#1 - Rushing attempts in 1 season: 245"

All this means is he got more chances to put up numbers than anyone else

78 yards a game doesn't piss excellence

7/29/2010 5:01:23 PM

Quote :

"Did you actually watch him play when he was reasonably healthy? The only player on your list that is even debatable is Andre Brown."

I've watched or listened to (when it wasn't on TV) almost every NC State football game since Mike O'Cain's last year, and a few from before (that I don't remember well because I was young). There's no question in my mind that Brown is a better RB than him. Baker, when healthy, is a MUCH better talent. Eugene, when running plays that actually suit his style, was more effective than TA. Ray Robinson was 100 times better than TA in the passing/screen game and overall a better RB IMO. TA was much more of a bruiser than Ray Rob, but I'd take that #5 any day.

In all of those games, not one was TA actually healthy. What's reasonably healthy? He played with broken wrists or something for a while, had his shoulder separated twice, once in practice I believe, and it's definitely not healthy to throw up as often before/during games as he did. I'm sure if healthy he would have been amazing, but what he showed on the field doesn't put him ahead of any of the guys on my list. Just think of what would have happened if Andre Brown had the OL TA did his freshman year. TA probably wouldn't have even played his freshman year if Ray Rob had another year of eligibility.

7/29/2010 5:17:08 PM

The fact that you've seen so many games makes me even more perplexed by your rankings.

Not one of those players you listed would be be characterized by any analysis besides Doc Walker as special. McClendon was a special player his freshman year before his gimpness and mental retardation took over.

7/29/2010 5:28:07 PM

To me, he was still more fun to watch during his freshman year than any of the RBs we've had since. He used to absolutely punish defenders for even looking at him. That play where he broke through those two GT defenders(I think) comes to mind. In high school I played in the same conference as this guy and I still can't believe he didn't kill me the 3 times we played Albemarle. Too bad he had bones made of glass.

7/29/2010 5:29:05 PM

Quote :

"I've watched or listened to (when it wasn't on TV) almost every NC State football game since Mike O'Cain's last year, and a few from before (that I don't remember well because I was young). There's no question in my mind that Brown is a better RB than him. Baker, when healthy, is a MUCH better talent. Eugene, when running plays that actually suit his style, was more effective than TA. Ray Robinson was 100 times better than TA in the passing/screen game and overall a better RB IMO. TA was much more of a bruiser than Ray Rob, but I'd take that #5 any day."

I argue this with my friends all the time...

TA was the best back I've seen at State in a loooong time..... IF YOU TOOK AWAY HIS FUMBLING PROBLEM AND INJURY PROBLEMS. If you think Brown, Baker, or anyone else had the balance, shiftiness, or vision of TA, I'd think you were crazy. TA could have been one of the best backs in our history IMO.

That said, If I had to win the game carrying the ball 30+ times, I'd want Brown or Baker becuase I knew they weren't going to fumble the ball away. Don't think either of them had the natural ability of TA.

[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 5:34 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2010 5:33:37 PM

also once i was at a kegger in raleigh...circa 2001 or so...wearing a david thompson jersey...and some dude is like "hey man, that guy's got a TA McLendon basketball jersey"

7/29/2010 5:35:53 PM

See, now that's just sad

7/29/2010 5:39:38 PM

Quote :

"TA was the best back I've seen at State in a loooong time..... IF YOU TOOK AWAY HIS FUMBLING PROBLEM AND INJURY PROBLEMS. If you think Brown, Baker, or anyone else had the balance, shiftiness, or vision of TA, I'd think you were crazy. TA could have been one of the best backs in our history IMO. That said, If I had to win the game carrying the ball 30+ times, I'd want Brown or Baker becuase I knew they weren't going to fumble the ball away. Don't think either of them had the natural ability of TA."

Thanks to his fumbling problems he probably lost us as many games as he won us. I'd love to forget his injury problems and complete inability to hold onto the ball, but of course that's a big part of being a running back.

I was a big TA fan his freshman year. About midway through his sophomore year I was ready to get rid of him. I officially came off the TA bandwagon when he fumbled away that FSU game.

Andre Brown and Toney Baker have every bit the natural ability TA had. Baker was an Army All-American at Ragsdale and pre-injury had great speed and was able to run between the tackles as good as anyone we've had in the last 15 years. People who follow HS football closely still tell me that Andre Brown is the best HS RB NC has ever had, even though TA has the records and Baker has the awards. He too has good speed (something like a 4.4) and is able to punish people when he needs to. If you gave me the choice of RBs from NC State since I've been born, I'd pick Andre Brown every time, no hesitation.

7/29/2010 6:10:15 PM

I'd take a freshmen TA over Andre any day...and I loved Andre

Id Say TA, Andre, and a tie between Eugene and TBake.

TA was a murderer on the field.

7/29/2010 6:24:39 PM

^^We'll agree to disagree on that one.

IIRC, didn't Andre Brown break many of TA's HS records...then I believe Baker broke Brown's? Could be way off there, but I seem to remember that.

I have a buddy who feels the same way you do about TA. While he thinks TA was a talent when he was at his best, he thinks he was a worse RB than Greg Golden (If that tells you how much he hated TA). His argument was that TA would break off an 80 yard incredible run, fumble at the end or get hurt....so what good was he?

In my humble opinion, it'll be a long time before pack fans see a RB with as much ability as TA. Baker might have been great had he not gotten hurt, and I think Brown was a bit above average. I think TA could have been legendary had he not pissed it all away with a crappy work ethic and fumbling issues. I just don't see a comparison with the 3. When our kids talk about the greatest ACC RB's 30 years from now, I think TA had the potential to make that conversation. Don't think Brown or Baker ever showed me that ability (Granted, Baker never really had a chance)


[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 6:27 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2010 6:24:43 PM

Quote :

"IF YOU TOOK AWAY HIS FUMBLING PROBLEM AND INJURY PROBLEMS. "

Sure

If you take away all the shit he did wrong, he'd be perfect

Great analysis as always

7/29/2010 6:37:01 PM

I have heard that there wasnt really a backup for TA and that was one of the reasons he got injured so much because he was just worn down.

7/29/2010 6:43:19 PM

Josh Brown??

7/29/2010 6:49:04 PM

Quote :

"Sure If you take away all the shit he did wrong, he'd be perfect Great analysis as always"

You can teach an exceptional RB not to fumble. You can't teach a crappy RB to make the other team look stupid trying to tackle him.

My entire point was that TA had incredible natural ability that was wasted on his unwillingness to practice and actually work at correcting the flaws, thus he was wasted talent.

Way to totally miss the point and make a shitty attempt at sarcasm

7/29/2010 6:49:31 PM

It looked like TA just gave up after his freshman year. He had so much heart that year and you could tell he treated every play like he could break for a TD. He just tried sooooo hard on every play. He had that great year and it almost seemed like he thought, "hey, i'm awesome, I have it made, there's no need for me to work or try any harder." he drank his own coolaid. then he fell apart. damn, what a waste.

7/29/2010 6:55:58 PM

Quote :

"I'd take a freshmen TA over Andre any day...and I loved Andre"

Agree completely. TA had some of the best balance I've ever seen in a college running back. People talk about his lack of top-flight speed, but the guy could accelerate and punish people like no other.

It's sad to think how good that guy could have been if he simply gave a shit.



[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 6:58 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2010 6:56:26 PM

Quote :

"Way to totally miss the point and make a shitty attempt at sarcasm"

Sorry, thought that was JT3

I was just being a dick, I had no point

Quote :

"My entire point was that TA had incredible natural ability that was wasted on his unwillingness to practice and actually work at correcting the flaws, thus he was wasted talent."

Agree 1000% with that

We played Albemarle in the semifinal game his senior year. Our D had allowed like 10 points all year. TA returned the opening kickoff for a TD, ran for like 400 yards, played both ways and scored almost every time he touched the ball. He was a ridiculous athlete but also king of the tub.

7/29/2010 6:57:44 PM

^^ Lack of top flight speed becuase he pulled his hammy at the line of scrimmage more than likely


[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 7:00 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2010 6:58:57 PM

Quote :

"It's sad to think how good that guy could have been if he simply gave a shit."

him and Clarrett both...if things played out differently they both could be feature NFL backs right about now

7/29/2010 7:05:05 PM

^^^ No prob...just wondered why the snotty response.

^I don't know about you all, but another great frosh RB to keep an eye on throughout his career is Dion Lewis at Pitt. That kid impressed me a ton last season. Maybe he won't follow the Clarett / TA road to nowhere

7/29/2010 7:06:56 PM

Totally different style than Clarett or TA, but Lewis is legit.

7/29/2010 7:09:43 PM

Oh, I agree....just comparing them becuase of the "Freshmen that make you go hmmmm" connection.

(And I completely realize I'm not uncovering a diamond in the rough here. Lewis is a household name...he's just insanely good)

[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 7:12 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2010 7:11:20 PM

Quote :

"It looked like TA just gave up after his freshman year. He had so much heart that year and you could tell he treated every play like he could break for a TD. He just tried sooooo hard on every play. He had that great year and it almost seemed like he thought, "hey, i'm awesome, I have it made, there's no need for me to work or try any harder." he drank his own coolaid. then he fell apart. damn, what a waste."

My room mate walked onto the team.

TA would just hang around the weight room when the team was lifting. The the coaches would get on him and tell him to lift. So he would go clean 325 10 times like it was nothing.

The culture around Amato was favoritism to his stars. And that culture led to all the problems.

7/29/2010 7:11:21 PM

Quote :

"IIRC, didn't Andre Brown break many of TA's HS records...then I believe Baker broke Brown's? Could be way off there, but I seem to remember that."

Brown played 4A ball and TA was 1A. The competition in 4A is much greater. Stats don't tell you everything. Most knowledge high school football "experts" i know (experts being used rather loosely) will say that TA was a hell of a HS player, but they think Baker and Brown were better, and there's been more debate over which of those is better amongst people who I've talked to than that debate with TA in the mix. I think TA still has the TD record, Baker might have the yards record. I'm sure Brown has some kind of record himself.

BTW, for those that say that Brown never showed he was that special kind of player, do you remember what he did in his first career start? Hint: it was against FSU.

From gopack:

Quote :

"In 2005: A first-team Academic All-ACC performer ... Broke onto the scene in a big way against Southern Miss and then started the last five games of the season ... Named NC State's Most Valuable Offensive Back ... Posted two of the top six rushing games in the ACC ... The Wolfpack's leading rusher with 721 yards, that was the eighth-best mark in the ACC (60.6 yards per game) ... Named to the Sporting News All-ACC freshman squad, that publication also named him an honorable mention freshman All-American ... Ranked 10th in the ACC in all-purpose yardage ... Had the top rushing game ever by a Wolfpack freshman when he ran for 248 yards and two touchdowns against Southern Miss, that was the second-highest performance in the ACC and the 13th-highest in the nation ... That was the second-best mark in Wolfpack history, only Ted Brown's 251 yards against Penn State in 1977 was better ... That mark was also the highest rushing total in the nation by a freshman in 2005 ... Tallied 279 all-purpose yards versus USM, also the second-best mark in school history (Torry Holt holds the record with 298 yards versus Baylor in 1998) ... That was the highest all-purpose total ever posted in Carter-Finley Stadium ... Named the ACC Rookie-of-the-Week and CollegeSportsReport.com's I-A performer of the week for the Southern Miss. game ... Scored on a 61-yard run against USM ... Made his first career start against Florida State, rushing for 179 yards on 26 carries and scoring a touchdown on a 65-yard romp on his first carry of the game ... That was the longest rush for a Pack player since T.A. McLendon had a 67-yard run against Texas Tech on 9/20/03 ... It was the longest touchdown run since Ray Robinson scored on an 87-yarder versus Duke on 11/3/01 ... Named the Walter Camp National Offensive Player of the Week for his performance against the Seminoles ... He also won ACC Offensive Back and Rookie of the Week honors and was named Rivals.com's national freshman of the week ... Named the Wolfpack's most outstanding player on offense following 2006 spring drills."

7/29/2010 7:11:42 PM

^ That's when he busted off a 50 or so yard run and Dexter Reid'd the safety, right?

7/29/2010 7:13:14 PM

Nearly 180 yards in his first start against a very good FSU team isn't too shabby is it?

That first carry:



Against ASU, he wanted to show you his power game:

7/29/2010 7:16:49 PM

Yeah, I was at both those games. No one is saying Brown wasn't a nice player. You can stop now.

[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 7:23 PM. Reason : f]

7/29/2010 7:22:53 PM

Is nice better than special? Because people are saying that Andre Brown isn't a special player. Take away that foot injury and give Andre Brown the offense around him that TA had, and Brown gets more yards and potentially more TDs.

When people say TA's 4.5 YPC was nothing special just look at Andre Brown's. 5.3 YPC as a freshman, 5.2 as a sophmore. He gets hurt most of his junior year, and with that TERRIBLE OL he had his senior year he was still able to basically match TA at 4.4 YPC. Andre also excelled in the passing game, getting 10.7 per catch his senior year.

Andre was a better back than TA, plain and simple. (which is one of the reasons Andre was drafted and TA wasn't)

7/29/2010 7:43:23 PM

Nah . In all seriousness you're all bent out of shape over Andre when I said the Brown was the only one on your list worth debating. Ray Robinson was definitely better than Eugen or Baker. Of the guy's who have been discussed, it would be. 1.TA/Brown 2. Robinson 3. Eugene 4. Baker. And the difference between the first 3 and last two is wide.





[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 8:14 PM. Reason : f]

7/29/2010 8:07:05 PM

Quote :

"Brown played 4A ball and TA was 1A. The competition in 4A is much greater. Stats don't tell you everything. Most knowledge high school football "experts" i know (experts being used rather loosely) will say that TA was a hell of a HS player, but they think Baker and Brown were better, and there's been more debate over which of those is better amongst people who I've talked to than that debate with TA in the mix. I think TA still has the TD record, Baker might have the yards record. I'm sure Brown has some kind of record himself."

I know I said this before, but I went to Albemarle as well and they never played TA in the 2nd half, ever. We would be up 60 at halftime and they would just let him rest. Every once in a blue moon they would stick him at linebacker and blow up some cats, but that was just for fun.

He would have been the most prolific high school player in US history if they allowed him to play the whole game his 4 years there. However, that would have also been the most unsportsmanlike move in the history of high school sports as well. It was just unfair when he stepped on the field.

Like you said, stats don't tell you everything (like SF's YPC argument). When he touched the rock there was something special about him. Everyone knows it. That's why this argument comes up every year.

7/29/2010 8:12:52 PM

If Baker never fucks his knees up (the same healthy exemption people want to give TA) I'd take him over everyone but Brown. Baker, in that case, is better than TA, when healthy.

Ray Rob was better in space than TA, and was MUCH better in the passing game. He also was more reliable than TA (which really isn't hard). He worked his ass off and while I don't think he ever played in the NFL he made a roster a couple times.

Eugene was similar to Ray Rob in how I'd take him over TA.

Baker if healthy has the ability to pound the ball and run people over, yet also runs a legit 4.4 40. I think he ran like a 4.5 at the NFL Combine. TA was probably closer to a 4.6 before injuries plagued him and ran something like a 4.77 at the NFL combine. Baker worked his ass off to get back and is working his way onto a NFL roster, TA was a bum and that helped kill his career both in sports and out of sports.

Work ethic, ability to not be injured, and ball handling are all BIG parts of being a running back, and TA was so terrible at those three things that cannot IMO be ranked ahead of Brown, Robinson, and shouldn't be ranked ahead of Baker or Eugene.

Quote :

"He would have been the most prolific high school player in US history if they allowed him to play the whole game his 4 years there. However, that would have also been the most unsportsmanlike move in the history of high school sports as well. It was just unfair when he stepped on the field."

Reminds me of Independence and Joe Cox. The one year they didn't have Tom Knotts as a coach (when he was at Duke) Cox often played sparingly in the second half of games as... well... that team his senior year was probably the best team to ever set foot on a high school field in NC. Had he played the second half of some of those games, he probably would have broken each and ever one of Leaks records and probably have several national records. That team had backups receive scholarship offers. The best WR on that team was a 2nd round draft pick. His back-up went D-1 somewhere (I forget). His back-up was 1st round pick Hakeem Nicks. His back-up was a WR whose name escapes me and went to USC. I think they had a RB that went to the SEC? Idk, one of the back-ups went to ECU I think. Anyway, the point is it would be unsportmanlike for them to show up to a game.

7/29/2010 8:26:33 PM

I enjoyed watching TA so much more than Baker...Andre had his days...Baker was almost boring.

but Good Lord it was amazing to watch TA when he was just straight jacking on fools.

maybe thats the difference to me.

7/29/2010 8:29:18 PM

^^

LOL, sorry I'm done debating someone who thinks Eugene(every decent Div I team has at least 2 players of his caliber) was better than TA. The negativity (deserved) surrounding his final year in college has really made people forget how fucking good he was.



[Edited on July 29, 2010 at 8:35 PM. Reason : f]

7/29/2010 8:31:22 PM

TA was fucking unstoppable his freshman year.

He was corrupted by Amatos system of favoritism and his ego.

Under Obrien he would have flourished.

7/29/2010 8:38:09 PM

The only thing really remarkable about TA's freshman year was the number of touchdowns he got. Why did he have so many? Mostly because he was cleaning up after one of the best QBs to ever play the game.

Eugene would have really benefited from the OL TA ran behind that year. Eugene is better in space than TA, and is better in the passing game. He was an excellent SCAT back. He also didn't have the same level of injury bug TA had, and didn't fumble just because someone looked at him funny.

Put Eugene in a system like what Urban Meyer runs, keep him healthy, and he finishes his career with 3-4K all-purpose yards.

^Unstoppable yet averaged only 4.5 YPC.

7/29/2010 8:40:12 PM

^because he would be in a spread offense you fucktard...one where all he got was end arounds and screen passes

and this

Quote :

"Eugene is better in space than TA"

is ridiculous...TA could juke you out of your shoes or run right through you. He was amazing to watch.

Im starting to think you are trolling now.

7/29/2010 8:46:29 PM