Quote :

"Bush Suspends Pay Act In Areas Hit by Storm By Thomas B. Edsall Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, September 9, 2005; Page D03 President Bush yesterday suspended application of the federal law governing workers' pay on federal contracts in the Hurricane Katrina-damaged areas of Alabama, Florida, Louisiana, and Mississippi. The action infuriated labor leaders and their Democratic supporters in Congress, who said it will lower wages and make it harder for union contractors to win bids. The Davis-Bacon Act, passed in 1931 during the Great Depression, sets a minimum pay scale for workers on federal contracts by requiring contractors to pay the prevailing or average pay in the region. Suspension of the act will allow contractors to pay lower wages. Many Republicans have opposed Davis-Bacon, charging that it amounts to a taxpayer subsidy to unions. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/08/AR2005090802037.html

So executive orders can overturn acts of Congress?

9/12/2005 7:26:12 PM

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=348729&page=1#7487032

Since there's language in the act that allows him to suspend its requirements in time of emergency, he can do this legally, without overturning acts of Congress.

9/12/2005 7:38:34 PM

Executive Order 13233 overturned the Presidential Papers Act, which means that when Bush leaves office, his papers remain secret.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011101-12.html

Is that also an emergency? Or the need to cover-up illegal activities?

9/12/2005 7:43:29 PM

WTF does Executive Order 13233 have to do with the Davis-Bacon Act?

9/12/2005 8:38:16 PM

Sorry. I was more interested in the legality and power of an Executive Order.

9/12/2005 8:47:47 PM

Union workers tend to be more productive than non-union workers. This probably will not save much money in the long run.

9/12/2005 8:50:25 PM

Actually, it's not going to save any money. The gov't is handing out "no bid" contracts to clean up the damage caused by Katrina.

Suspension of the Davis-Bacon Act is to increase the profit margin of the corporate contractors.

[Edited on September 12, 2005 at 10:21 PM. Reason : r]

9/12/2005 10:21:06 PM

Geena Davis was in Thelma and Louise with Susan Sarandon
Susan Sarandon was in Dead Man Walking with Sean Penn
Sean Penn was in Mystic River with Kevin Bacon.

Can anyone beat three moves?

9/12/2005 10:37:11 PM

geena davis -> brad pitt (thelma & louise)
brad pitt -> kevin bacon (sleepers)

9/12/2005 10:41:07 PM

Fuck.

9/12/2005 10:43:16 PM

haha

9/12/2005 10:47:59 PM

i'm thinking there HAS to be a movie they did together

9/12/2005 10:51:04 PM

You would think so wouldn't you? I looked and couldn't find anything.

Regardless, I suck at life. Well played, Woodfoot. Well played.

9/12/2005 10:55:54 PM

Yeah, i pulled up IMDB and was astonished...

but i used to RULE the kevin bacon game

no imdb needed

9/12/2005 11:35:03 PM

yes executive orders can over rule congress. Not usually done. But the executive has to execute Congress' laws anyway. It is mostly used for emergencies and situations that require decisive action. But in this case neither apply since the Act allows for it's own suspension.

9/12/2005 11:57:13 PM

I need to learn how to play the Kevin Bacon game well.

9/13/2005 12:10:39 AM

Here is the Oracle of Bacon, a search engine for actors for the Bacon game

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/oracle/

9/13/2005 12:16:08 AM

^^you just have to have a boatload of movie knowledge

9/13/2005 9:18:54 AM

All for corporate profits, huh? Nothing more than cash money in the pockets of people you resent?

No chance that easing salary restrictions might actually increase the number of people working?

No chance that low-skilled workers who can't find work at the higher wages demanded by Davis-Bacon will find work at lower wages with a suspended Davis-Bacon?

No chance that some of those low-skilled workers will gain experience via OJT and be able to demand higher wages in the future?


Yet another nefarious plot by Bush to kick the black man in the nuts while he's down.

9/13/2005 9:43:48 AM

Nope. No chance at all.

9/13/2005 10:01:58 AM

^^^yea, I'll get there.

favorite juxtaposition of the thread so far:

Quote :

"^^you just have to have a boatload of movie knowledge -------------------------------------------------------------------- All for corporate profits, huh?"

9/13/2005 1:36:49 PM

^

^^ Any particular reasons why?

9/13/2005 3:49:40 PM

^ Its simple:

republicans = bad.

9/13/2005 3:53:10 PM

fuck a union

9/13/2005 3:59:05 PM

Quote :

"^^ Any particular reasons why?"

1. Profit motive.

2. See the bloated Iraqi contracts and missing funds [8.8 billion that disappeared]

3. Projects cost more when they're handed to political friends instead of the lowest bidder.

Quote :

"Last week, FEMA and the corps awarded at least seven no-bid contracts, most for up to $100 million, to a number of companies that had also received no-bid contracts for work in Iraq, including the Kellogg, Brown & Root subsidiary of Houston-based Halliburton."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/12631994.htm




[Edited on September 13, 2005 at 4:02 PM. Reason : [and continued union busting as treetwista said]]

9/13/2005 4:01:05 PM

Unions can rot in hell. Right To Work States Rule!!!

9/13/2005 5:10:06 PM

Quote :

" 1. Profit motive. 2. See the bloated Iraqi contracts and missing funds [8.8 billion that disappeared] 3. Projects cost more when they're handed to political friends instead of the lowest bidder."

remind me again how these have ANYTHING to do with what A Tanzarian said?

Basically, it went like this:

Quote :

"pryderi: BUSH DID IT ALL FOR PROFITS!!! A Tanzarian: ummm, is it possible that dubya did it for any of these valid reasons? pryderi: NO!!! A Tanzarian: why is that? pryderi: CAUSE HE DID IT ALL FOR THE PROFITS!!!"

even a sixth grade debate team would come up with a better argument than that, pryderi. But hey, keep being an anti-bush sheep.

9/13/2005 5:48:47 PM

1. Profit is why most companies are in business, regardless of their actual or perceived political affiliations. It seems to me that, given the choice between (a) fewer workers at the Davis-Bacon price or (b) more workers at a less than Davis-Bacon price, companies would choose more workers for less.

KBR is largely a contractor. They aren't doing all the work themselves--KBR will subcontract the work to local workers. Therefore, a good portion of the money will reach local businesses and workers.

2. Iraq != Katrina. Aside from that, I'm trying to think of any government project or contract that hasn't run over budget.

3. I'm curious about the handing out of contracts to political friends. KBR has been doing government work since the 1930s--which predates both Bush and Cheney. Additionally, KBR has been doing natural disaster clean-up since 1990, which is before Cheney's time as CEO at Halliburton. I'm not saying that political back scratching has nothing to do with the handing out of government money (REGARDLESS OF WHO IS IN OFFICE), but it's certainly worth noting that KBR has a very long history of government work.

I'm also curious about the no-bid contracts--do you have another link where I don't have to register to read the article? According to KBR's website, which was last updated September 9, KBR's post-Katrina government work consists of work for the Navy and work for the Department of Homeland Security. The Navy work is based upon a contract awarded in July of last year "following a competitive bidding process." The Homeland Security work is based on a "competitively-won contract with the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)" in June of 2000.

I find it interesting that KBR is the only company named. What are the names of the other companines?

http://www.halliburton.com/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/news.jsp?newsurl=/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/press_statement/2005/corpnws_090505.html

As for union busting, I could give a shit less about the unions. Not only have they outlived their usefulness, unions have become what they once despised: large organizations run by elites who take advantage of (and money from) those at the bottom of the organization. And, unlike Sputter, my experience with unions has been one of frustration and rework.

9/13/2005 6:55:28 PM

Quote :

" KBR is largely a contractor. They aren't doing all the work themselves--KBR will subcontract the work to local workers. Therefore, a good portion of the money will reach local businesses and workers."

Exactly. And guess what? Those local business will submit bids on KBR's no-bid contract to get the work. Couple that with the elimination of the prevailing wage provision of the Davis-Bacon Act, KBR increases its profits.

Quote :

"2. Iraq != Katrina. Aside from that, I'm trying to think of any government project or contract that hasn't run over budget."

What budget? There is no budget planned for the Katrina cleanup/rebuilding as yet.

Quote :

"Bush's efforts at damage control come with a potential cost. Having been accused of ineffectual leadership during the disaster, he is under enormous pressure not to be seen as parsimonious with funds for aid and recovery. About $62.3 billion has been appropriated. Contracts for rebuilding are being awarded on a "no-bid" basis. And yet the planning for successful rebuilding campaign is nowhere to be found."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-09-13-gulf-edit_x.htm

Quote :

"3. I'm curious about the handing out of contracts to political friends. KBR has been doing government work since the 1930s--which predates both Bush and Cheney. Additionally, KBR has been doing natural disaster clean-up since 1990, which is before Cheney's time as CEO at Halliburton. I'm not saying that political back scratching has nothing to do with the handing out of government money (REGARDLESS OF WHO IS IN OFFICE), but it's certainly worth noting that KBR has a very long history of government work."

The question I have is why would the gov't continue handing out contracts to a company that has repeatedly overcharged and "lost" documentation?

Sample story:

Quote :

"New audit slams Halliburton work in Kuwait Contractor could not account for third of items billed Updated: 4:46 p.m. ET Oct. 28, 2004 WASHINGTON - Halliburton unit Kellogg Brown and Root, the U.S. military's biggest contractor in Iraq, could not account for over a third of the items it handled in Kuwait under a work order for the U.S. occupation authority in Iraq, said an audit released Thursday. The audit by the Inspector General for the Coalition Provisional Authority, said a random sample of 3,032 records of items valued at more than $3.7 million, projected KBR could not account for 42.8 percent, or 1,297, of these goods."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6355144/

Quote :

"I'm also curious about the no-bid contracts--do you have another link where I don't have to register to read the article? According to KBR's website, which was last updated September 9, KBR's post-Katrina government work consists of work for the Navy and work for the Department of Homeland Security. The Navy work is based upon a contract awarded in July of last year "following a competitive bidding process." The Homeland Security work is based on a "competitively-won contract with the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)" in June of 2000."

I didn't have to register to view the original story, I don't know why you can't get to it. Here's another related story that has nothing to do with the Navy work.

Quote :

"One of the most immediate tasks after Katrina hit was repair of the breaches in the New Orleans levees. Three companies — the Shaw Group, KBR and Boh Brothers Construction of New Orleans — have been awarded no-bid contracts by the Army Corps of Engineers to perform the work "

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3347464

Believe me, months from now there will be an abundant number of news stories exposing the white collar looting of these companies

Anyway, my original intent of this thread was to try to figure out why the president can overturn congressional legislation? [outside a declared emergencey]

9/13/2005 8:10:30 PM

^ maybe because the legislation said he could? crazy thought, I know...

9/13/2005 8:15:48 PM

i liked this thread better when it was about the kevin bacon game

9/13/2005 8:16:23 PM

What does an emergency have to do with Executive Order 13233 ?

9/13/2005 8:16:55 PM

what does that order have to do w/ the davis-bacon act? or are you strawman-ing again?

9/13/2005 8:18:14 PM

Go back re-read the thread and stop verbing the noun, dumbass.

9/13/2005 8:46:20 PM

i read the thread. you said "OMFG!!! DUBYA SUSPENDED THIS ACT OF CONGRESS! OMFG!!!"

someone else comes in and says "ummm, said act allows him to it."

that was the end of the thread right there. you got pwnt. BUT, you decided to come back with some obscure shit which NOONE has worried about for three years, meaning it was probably more than likely OK then, and its probably OK now. but you are grasping at straws. Then, someone else comes in and rapes your other "argument" about dubya's actions being all for profit and you say "NUH UH!!" the other person says "why" and you say "CAUSE ITS ALL ABOUT PROFIT!!!"

so, after being anally raped with the biggest telephone pole around, you try and come back w/ "OMFG DUBYA IS OVERRULING CONGRESS!!!"

i think I summed the thread up quite nicely.

thus, it would actually appear that you either
A) set this thread up to bitch about the 2001 "suspension" of the Presidential Papers Act, which appears to be in keeping with the actions of previous presidents, btw, thus creating a strawman.
B) are a complete moron and didn't actually look at the Davis-Bacon act about which you are bitching about dubya suspending temporarily.
C) both A) and B)

9/13/2005 8:54:03 PM

I'm looking for an answer to my ponderings, and you're not helping at all.

9/13/2005 9:38:44 PM

the answer to your ponderings is that you are a rabid-anti-bush sheep.

9/13/2005 9:55:40 PM

If Executive Orders can overturn congressional legislation, what's the point of have Congress? Why not just declare a dictatorship and have done with it.

9/13/2005 10:00:07 PM

hey, i'm not a lawyer here, but I'm fairly certain that there are laws and precedents upon which we base such a question. And, here's the kicker: there's this really crazy thing called the supreme court which ends up making the decision should the pres and congress not agree...

9/13/2005 10:01:34 PM

Funny how Bush issued that executive order in order to expedite the rebuilding, but couldn't seem to expedite the saving of american lives...

9/13/2005 10:03:11 PM

funny how you issued that statement to expedite a strawman but can't issue a statement to expedite understanding of how you would have handled an incompetent state and local gov't...

9/13/2005 10:25:49 PM

Funny how you never tire of using, "strawman". Try expanding your vocabulary and use "paper tiger".

9/13/2005 10:30:07 PM

funny how you never tire of resorting to strawman. please expand your resume of logical fallacies arguing techniques

9/14/2005 12:25:55 AM

Without googling, give me an example of a logical fallacy.

9/14/2005 12:33:11 AM

look at any of your posts for such an example...

9/14/2005 12:38:24 AM

Quote :

"Why not just declare a dictatorship and have done with it."

Can we please? I am sure we could round up a handful of senators to stab him.

I apologize to the legacy and the greatness of Julius Caesar to compare him to the likes of W. but it was a useful anology.

9/14/2005 3:23:30 AM

HockeyRoman: Can we please? I am sure we could round up a handful of senators to stab him.

Man juxtapositions don't get any better than that. I think I had a couple of ancestors at Caesar's assination myself (I'm half Italian).

9/14/2005 5:00:16 PM

Quote :

"Exactly. And guess what? Those local business will submit bids on KBR's no-bid contract to get the work. Couple that with the elimination of the prevailing wage provision of the Davis-Bacon Act, KBR increases its profits."

A couple of things:
(1) KBR is NOT the only contractor being awarded no-bid contracts.

(2) What's so evil about profits? Do you think that goods and services should only be available at cost? What would be the motivation for anyone to offer goods and services if they couldn't in some way benefit?

Individuals and companies sell goods and services so that they may profit by turning goods and services into cash (or other goods and services). Individuals and companies purchase goods and services so that they may profit by turning cash (or other goods and services) into goods and services. See? Everyone wins!

Granted, this is on the simplistic side. It just seems to me that you hold profits in general as some sort of anathema.

(3) The profit of KBR and other contractors doesn't depend on the Davis-Bacon Act. The contractors have been paid a fixed sum of money by the government. Sub-contractors will bid with the lead contractors to do the actual work. A contractor's profit is the difference between the two (minus their own administrative and personnel costs).

(4) Why do you think that suspension of the Davis-Bacon Act will lead to lower wages? Davis-Bacon does not set the prevailing wage nor does it set the actual wages that workers are paid. Davis-Bacon simply mandates that wages paid for work performed under government contract should be no less than the average wage for the area where the work is being performed. Suspending the Davis-Bacon Act removes the prevailing wage restriction. Probably more importantly, the act's suspension also removes cumbersome paperwork requirements that prevent smaller contractors from bidding on some of the work.

Why would workers start demanding a lesser wage just because it's legal to pay them less?

Quote :

"The question I have is why would the gov't continue handing out contracts to a company that has repeatedly overcharged and "lost" documentation?"

This audit is hardly definitive proof of any sort of malicious behavior. What proof do you have that any documentation was deliberately "lost"? Aside from that, the audit itself is questionable. The last three pages of the audit contain a memo from another government agency that questions the validity of CPA's methodology and results. It points out that some of the 'missing' property didn't actually belong to the government and that the other 'missing' property was found.

http://www.sigir.mil/pdf/cpaig_audit-control_materiel_assets_kuwait.pdf

Quote :

"Believe me, months from now there will be an abundant number of news stories exposing the white collar looting of these companies"

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for 'stories'.

9/14/2005 5:33:57 PM

Quote :

"CHRIS MATTHEWS: Eighty percent of the $1.5 billion that's been let out in contracts for recovery efforts down in the Gulf has gone to no-bid contracts. It's a deal with one company, no competition; $60 million has gone to a Halliburton subsidiary represented in the lobbying world by Joseph Allbaugh, the former FEMA director for President Bush; $100 million has gone to Bechtel, which is still in a controversial situation for perhaps unsubstantiated charges in the Big Dig up in Boston. $568 million has gone to a group called Ashbritt down in Pompano Beach, Florida. That is represented by the firm formerly headed by Haley Barbour. Story continues below ? advertisement Haley Barbour, Joe Allbaugh, Big Dig, lots of connections here with politicians close to the Bush administration. "

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9503017/

Quote :

"Gulf Firms Losing Cleanup Contracts Most Money Going Outside Storm's Path By Griff Witte, Renae Merle and Derek Willis Washington Post Staff Writers Tuesday, October 4, 2005; D01 Companies outside the three states most affected by Hurricane Katrina have received more than 90 percent of the money from prime federal contracts for recovery and reconstruction of the Gulf Coast, according to an analysis of available government data. The analysis by The Washington Post takes into account only the first wave of federal contracts, those that had been entered in detail into government databases as of yesterday. Together they are valued at more than $2 billion. Congress has allocated more than $60 billion for the recovery effort, and the ultimate total is expected to rise far higher. But already the trend toward out-of-state firms is clear, despite pledges by administration officials that federal funds for Katrina relief will become an engine of local economic redevelopment. Among the contracts analyzed, 3.8 percent of the money went to companies that listed an Alabama address, 2.8 percent to firms in Louisiana and just 1.8 percent went for Mississippi contractors. Taken together, that amounts to less than $200 million."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/03/AR2005100301691.html?referrer=email&referrer=email

Rove is in control of the $200 billion disbursement, and he's going to be giving all the money away to cronies.

10/4/2005 3:10:46 PM

Do you even think anymore?
There is not $200B floating around. And sure as hell Karl Rove doesn't sit on the committee that awards contracts, bid or no.

10/4/2005 5:41:17 PM