The Democrats still do not.

Who cares about the troops and victory again?

12/6/2005 10:41:29 PM

Quote :

"The war in Iraq is not going as advertised. It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion. The American public is way ahead of us. The United States and coalition troops have done all they can in Iraq, but it is time for a change in direction. Our military is suffering. The future of our country is at risk. We can not continue on the present course. It is evident that continued military action in Iraq is not in the best interest of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf Region. General Casey said in a September 2005 Hearing, “the perception of occupation in Iraq is a major driving force behind the insurgency.” General Abizaid said on the same date, “Reducing the size and visibility of the coalition forces in Iraq is a part of our counterinsurgency strategy.” For 2 ½ years I have been concerned about the U.S. policy and the plan in Iraq. I have addressed my concerns with the Administration and the Pentagon and have spoken out in public about my concerns. The main reason for going to war has been discredited. A few days before the start of the war I was in Kuwait – the military drew a red line around Baghdad and said when U.S. forces cross that line they will be attacked by the Iraqis with Weapons of Mass Destruction – but the US forces said they were prepared. They had well trained forces with the appropriate protective gear. We spend more money on Intelligence than all the countries in the world together, and more on Intelligence than most countries GDP. But the intelligence concerning Iraq was wrong. It is not a world intelligence failure. It is a U.S. intelligence failure and the way that intelligence was misused. I have been visiting our wounded troops at Bethesda and Walter Reed hospitals almost every week since the beginning of the War. And what demoralizes them is going to war with not enough troops and equipment to make the transition to peace; the devastation caused by IEDs; being deployed to Iraq when their homes have been ravaged by hurricanes; being on their second or third deployment and leaving their families behind without a network of support. The threat posed by terrorism is real, but we have other threats that cannot be ignored. We must be prepared to face all threats. The future of our military is at risk. Our military and their families are stretched thin. Many say that the Army is broken. Some of our troops are on their third deployment. Recruitment is down, even as our military has lowered its standards. Defense budgets are being cut. Personnel costs are skyrocketing, particularly in health care. Choices will have to be made. We can not allow promises we have made to our military families in terms of service benefits, in terms of their health care, to be negotiated away. Procurement programs that ensure our military dominance cannot be negotiated away. We must be prepared. The war in Iraq has caused huge shortfalls at our bases in the U.S. Much of our ground equipment is worn out and in need of either serious overhaul or replacement. George Washington said, “To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace.” We must rebuild our Army. Our deficit is growing out of control. The Director of the Congressional Budget Office recently admitted to being “terrified” about the budget deficit in the coming decades. This is the first prolonged war we have fought with three years of tax cuts, without full mobilization of American industry and without a draft. The burden of this war has not been shared equally; the military and their families are shouldering this burden. Our military has been fighting a war in Iraq for over two and a half years. Our military has accomplished its mission and done its duty. Our military captured Saddam Hussein, and captured or killed his closest associates. But the war continues to intensify. Deaths and injuries are growing, with over 2,079 confirmed American deaths. Over 15,500 have been seriously injured and it is estimated that over 50,000 will suffer from battle fatigue. There have been reports of at least 30,000 Iraqi civilian deaths. I just recently visited Anbar Province Iraq in order to assess the conditions on the ground. Last May 2005, as part of the Emergency Supplemental Spending Bill, the House included the Moran Amendment, which was accepted in Conference, and which required the Secretary of Defense to submit quarterly reports to Congress in order to more accurately measure stability and security in Iraq. We have now received two reports. I am disturbed by the findings in key indicator areas. Oil production and energy production are below pre-war levels. Our reconstruction efforts have been crippled by the security situation. Only $9 billion of the $18 billion appropriated for reconstruction has been spent. Unemployment remains at about 60 percent. Clean water is scarce. Only $500 million of the $2.2 billion appropriated for water projects has been spent. And most importantly, insurgent incidents have increased from about 150 per week to over 700 in the last year. Instead of attacks going down over time and with the addition of more troops, attacks have grown dramatically. Since the revelations at Abu Ghraib, American casualties have doubled. An annual State Department report in 2004 indicated a sharp increase in global terrorism. I said over a year ago, and now the military and the Administration agrees, Iraq can not be won “militarily.” I said two years ago, the key to progress in Iraq is to Iraqitize, Internationalize and Energize. I believe the same today. But I have concluded that the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is impeding this progress. Our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency. They are united against U.S. forces and we have become a catalyst for violence. U.S. troops are the common enemy of the Sunnis, Saddamists and foreign jihadists. I believe with a U.S. troop redeployment, the Iraqi security forces will be incentivized to take control. A poll recently conducted shows that over 80% of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition troops, and about 45% of the Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified. I believe we need to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis. I believe before the Iraqi elections, scheduled for mid December, the Iraqi people and the emerging government must be put on notice that the United States will immediately redeploy. All of Iraq must know that Iraq is free. Free from United States occupation. I believe this will send a signal to the Sunnis to join the political process for the good of a “free” Iraq. My plan calls: To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces. To create a quick reaction force in the region. To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines. To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq This war needs to be personalized. As I said before I have visited with the severely wounded of this war. They are suffering. Because we in Congress are charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle, it is our responsibility, our OBLIGATION to speak out for them. That’s why I am speaking out. Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily. IT IS TIME TO BRING THEM HOME. "

here's a plan

12/6/2005 10:47:18 PM

Quote :

"“Our troops deserve a strategy in Iraq that is worthy of their sacrifice. That is why, for three years, Democrats have pushed the White House to lay out a plan for success. “Unfortunately, the President has rejected our call, and instead, insisted America needs to “stay the course.” With more than 2,050 Americans killed… more than $250 billion spent… and no end in sight after three years of war -- “staying the course” is no longer an option. “Together, we can do better. Democrats have developed a very clear path forward. There are three areas we believe need to be addressed: * First, 2006 should be a significant year of transition to full Iraqi sovereignty, with Iraqis taking more and more responsibility for their own security. It’s time to take the training wheels off the Iraqi government. Iraqis must begin to run their own country. In 2006, the US and our allies must do everything we can to make that possible. * Second, the Administration must advise the Iraqi people that U.S. military forces will not stay indefinitely in Iraq, and that it is their responsibility to achieve the broad-based and sustainable political environment essential for defeating the insurgency. * Third, the President needs to submit – on a quarterly basis - a plan for success to Congress and the American people. This plan must specify the challenges and progress being made in Iraq, timetables for achieving our goals and estimated dates for redeployment from Iraq as these goals are met. “Apparently, Republicans have agreed this is the approach we need to take, as they have essentially accepted our amendment. “It cannot be understated that by accepting our amendment, both the Republican leader and the chairman of the Armed Services committee agree that the administration needs to come forward and explain to Congress and the American people its strategy for success and completing the mission. “It’s not easy for the President to admit mistakes. It’s a lot easier for him to lash out at those who question his policies, but political attacks are not going to get the job done. Our troops have done their job. It’s time for the President and this Republican-controlled Congress to do theirs.” "

Here's another

[Edited on December 6, 2005 at 10:49 PM. Reason : [b]]

12/6/2005 10:47:55 PM

Quote :

"### UNITED STATES POLICY ON IRAQ ACT Getting Answers to the American People on the War in Iraq For too long, the Bush administration has failed to lay out a clear strategy for success in Iraq to the American people. Their rosy statements about the progress of the war are not matched by the conditions on the ground. In their few appearances before the Congress, the Secretaries of Defense and State have failed to answer the most basic questions about our progress in the war or provide even the simplest benchmarks by which the American people could measure our progress. Democrats are offering an amendment to the Defense Authorization Bill that holds the Administration accountable for its actions and requires it to present a real plan for success. DEMOCRATS OFFER THE FOLLOWING ASSESMENT ABOUT THE WAR: Our troops and their families deserve the respect and gratitude of the American people for their service and sacrifice. The Administration has said that as the Iraqis stand up, we can stand down. Democrats believe we should see a significant transition to full Iraqi sovereignty in 2006 so that our troops can begin coming home. We also believe the Iraqi people must understand that the U.S. military will not stay in Iraq indefinitely; they must achieve the political stability necessary to defeat the insurgency. THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION MUST PROVIDE A PLAN: It is essential that the Bush administration submit an unclassified strategy for success in Iraq to the Congress and the American people specifying how and when our troops can begin coming home. An Assessment of the Bush Administration’s Actions to Achieve Progress in Iraq. The Bush administration must provide information on its efforts to convince Iraq’s communities to make the necessary compromises for a political settlement; efforts to engage the international community to help stabilize Iraq; efforts to strengthen the capacity of Iraq’s government ministries; efforts to accelerate the delivery of basic services; and efforts to train Iraqi security forces so those forces can protect Iraq on their own. An Assessment of the Compromises Made by the Iraqi People to Achieve the Broad-Based and Sustainable Political Settlement. An Unclassified Report to Congress and the American People. The Bush administration has classified most significant information about their Iraq war plans and kept that information from the Congress. The President should submit to the Congress and the American people an unclassified plan for success in Iraq. We deserve to know the conditions we seek to establish, the challenges we face in achieving these conditions, and the progress we are making. This report should also include: * The number of Iraqi battalions that must be able to operate independently or take the lead in counterinsurgency operations * The number of Iraqi special police units that must be able to operate independently or take the lead in policing * The number of regular police that must be trained and equipped * The ability of Iraq’s Federal ministries and provincial and local governments to independently sustain, direct and coordinate Iraq’s security forces The Benchmarks for Success. The Bush administration must also provide benchmarks by which their success can be measured. This includes the criteria by which to measure the progress being made and a schedule for meeting these conditions. A Plan for Bringing Our Troops Home. As it lays out a clear strategy with benchmarks, the Bush administration must also provide a campaign plan with estimated dates for the phased redeployment of our troops from Iraq as each condition is met, with the understanding that unexpected contingencies may arise. "

Here's another Democratic plan.

12/6/2005 10:49:09 PM

THE DEMOCRATS DON'T HAVE A PLAN!!!111

THA BIG GIRL STRIKES AGAIN

12/6/2005 10:50:03 PM

Each day, the definition of dumb ass changes, yet each day, it's always THA BIG GIRL

12/6/2005 10:56:27 PM

im talking about official plans for VICTORY, not plans for retreat

12/6/2005 10:56:52 PM

Bush doesn't have a plan for victory, either.

Other than to achieve victory.

But that's not as much a plan as it is a goal.

12/6/2005 11:02:39 PM

um. what is this plan for victory, incidently?

12/6/2005 11:03:17 PM

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html#h

12/6/2005 11:21:28 PM

While that certainly is a plan, it isn't a plan for "victory."

It's a reaction to falling approval ratings, in which the administration repackaged the status quo.

Only people as delusional as The Big Girl would think that a continuation of the status quo is a plan for victory.

12/6/2005 11:27:23 PM

I'll repeat myself, since THABIGL is staying here:

Quote :

"VICTORY IN IRAQ DEFINED In the short term: An Iraq that is making steady progress in fighting terrorists and neutralizing the insurgency, meeting political milestones; building democratic institutions; standing up robust security forces to gather intelligence, destroy terrorist networks, and maintain security; and tackling key economic reforms to lay the foundation for a sound economy. In the medium term: An Iraq that is in the lead defeating terrorists and insurgents and providing its own security, with a constitutional, elected government in place, providing an inspiring example to reformers in the region, and well on its way to achieving its economic potential. In the longer term: An Iraq that has defeated the terrorists and neutralized the insurgency. An Iraq that is peaceful, united, stable, democratic, and secure, where Iraqis have the institutions and resources they need to govern themselves justly and provide security for their country. An Iraq that is a partner in the global war on terror and the fight against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, integrated into the international community, an engine for regional economic growth, and proving the fruits of democratic governance to the region. "

How long you figure that will take, given the makeup of Iraq? There's the Shi'ite Islamic fundamentalists in the south, Sunnis in the middle [who persecuted and killed 100s of thousands of Shi'ites under Saddam]and the Kurds in the north [who were gassed by the Saddam's Sunnis]

How are we going to train troops, if our soldiers know how read/speak arabic?

Quote :

"On February 15, 1991, the first President Bush called on the Iraqi people and military to overthrow Saddam Hussein. The Shiites made the mistake of believing he meant it. Three days after the first Gulf War ended, on March 2, 1991, a Shiite rebellion began in Basra and quickly spread to the southern reaches of Baghdad. Then Saddam counterattacked with great ferocity. Three hundred thousand Shiites ultimately died. Not only did the elder President Bush not help, his administration refused even to hear the pleas of the more and more desperate Shiites."

Why would the Shi'ites trust us? Why would the Sunnis trust us? Iraq is going to devolve into a civil war, with our without our troops.


The Civil War in our country was almost 150 years ago, and people are still upset over it. If New York had slaughtered 300,000 North Carolinians 20 years ago, do you think they'd hold a grudge? Especially if it were Jewish New Yorkers killing Christian Southerners?

12/6/2005 11:27:41 PM

OFFICER BIG GIRL STRIKES AGAIN

12/7/2005 12:30:35 AM

Someone needs to make an Official Big Girl Strikes Again Banner (c)

Take an Empire Strikes Back poster and superimpose Star Jones on it, or something.





[Edited on December 7, 2005 at 12:36 AM. Reason : .]

12/7/2005 12:34:41 AM

best I can do for now;

12/7/2005 5:29:12 AM

Quote :

"How long you figure that will take, given the makeup of Iraq? There's the Shi'ite Islamic fundamentalists in the south, Sunnis in the middle [who persecuted and killed 100s of thousands of Shi'ites under Saddam]and the Kurds in the north [who were gassed by the Saddam's Sunnis] "

Why dont you give us your estimate since you are obviously an expert in the field.

Quote :

"How are we going to train troops, if our soldiers know how read/speak arabic? "

Well if our soldiers know how to do it, its a good thing. But i think you were trying to say that they don't. This was the big story two years ago. I would bet you 500 bucks that we have more arabic speaking people in Iraq right now than at any other time in history.

And to the rest of you. This is the Soap Box. Its not ChitChat or anywhere else. This is supposed to be a place where you dont call people names for expressing there opinions. Doing so truely reveals that you cannot make a decent arguement.

One more thing. Whose plans are these that you guys are showing? Dont just put it up there, put some names with them.


[Edited on December 7, 2005 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

12/7/2005 10:41:09 AM

^^ Hah, awesome

12/7/2005 11:39:14 AM

12/7/2005 11:40:49 AM

Quote :

"I would bet you 500 bucks that we have more arabic speaking people in Iraq right now than at any other time in history."

I would bet you 500 million bucks that we have more english speaking people in Iraq right now than at any other time in history.

12/7/2005 1:22:28 PM

12/7/2005 5:46:54 PM

12/7/2005 6:21:39 PM

12/7/2005 6:55:01 PM

From your boy's ill-attended speech at the Council on Foreign Relations:

Quote :

""I reject the pessimists in Washington who say we can't win this war...""

Flashback:

Quote :

"When asked "Can we win?" the war on terror, Bush said, "I don't think you can win it. But I think you can create conditions so that the - those who use terror as a tool are - less acceptable in parts of the world.""

So the question now is this: What makes the Iraqi front of the War on Terror winnable as opposed to the others?

12/8/2005 1:49:53 PM

i wish he'd just slip up once and call it the war on muslims

just once

12/8/2005 2:44:20 PM

The astute Dr. Dean:

Quote :

"The idea we're going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong."

And here's a clip from his buddy, Vietnam Veteran John Kerry...

Quote :

"There is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the -- of -- of -- of -- historical customs, religious customs, whether you like it or not. Iraqis should be doing that."

The two make an interesting pair of who the Democrats really are.

12/8/2005 5:11:10 PM

Realists?

12/8/2005 5:18:25 PM

Can I get a source for that second quote, kdawg? I'd like to archive it for later use.

12/8/2005 5:31:59 PM

As usual, I don't see your point kdawg(c).

1) Dean isn't the president, Bush is.
2) This seems to be the one thing the president and Dean agree on.

12/8/2005 5:32:25 PM

DONT YOU SEE???

THEYRE DEMORALIZING THE TROOPS BY SAYING WE CANT WIN.

there, did i get it right or what?

12/8/2005 6:07:31 PM

^^^ Face the Nation: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/face_120405.pdf

The quote that kdawg actually quoted came from Rush Limbaugh, who was making his own transcript for the interview I linked.

[Edited on December 8, 2005 at 6:10 PM. Reason : ]

12/8/2005 6:09:43 PM

the reason why there are terrorists in iraq because our troops are there.

terrorist 1: hey let's go kill some americans.
terrorist 2: nah, i don't feel like traveling all the way to america to do that.
terrorist 1: you don't have to. those idiots are in iraq.
terrorist 2: holy allah! that's like less than 100 miles away. we can arrive there on camel by dawn. let's go blow them up!

12/8/2005 10:25:05 PM

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2005/113005.asp

12/9/2005 11:46:19 AM