I've been mulling this topic in my mind the past couple of days and I figured I'd throw it out there for you guys. The basic premise is this: why are blacks more likely to commit crimes in the US than whites on a per-capita basis? I'll cut to the chase and say that it can't be anything intrinsic to the race, itself. AKA, simply being black doesn't make you more likely to commit a crime.

The important assumptions:
I've based this conclusion on what is obviously not the best "evidence." Namely, I started with my own assumption that blacks are more likely to commit crimes per capita. I looked at why I actually had this assumption (which, by definition, makes my analysis anecdotal, at best), and I came upon a few things. 1) I "see" an unequal ratio of white and black "suspects" on the evening news (yes, I know this isn't a great way to look at it, but I tend to notice a ratio of 2:2:1 or 2:3:1 (Black:White:Other)). I say "see," because its possible that I notice the blacks more than the whites, but I doubt it. 2) My experiences in middle and high school noted that blacks were more likely to get in fights or be unruly than whites (middle school population was 3:3:1, HS was probably 4:8:1).

So, it is possible that my analysis is totally wrong, and I'll be willing to admit that it is, but my intuition tells me that it is right, though I can't establish causality. It is possible that I only noticed blacks on the news and in school due to unintentional bias on my part. Hard numbers would obviously prove this to be the case, and would thus nullify much of what I am about to say. But, I'm going to assume the initial proposition, and then go with the more interesting question of "why?"

My first guess is to throw out the old "poverty begets crime" argument, and this seems to be a good idea initially. A casual glance at the "poverty" stricken Asian populations that I also went to school with sees similar rates, both in casual observations of crime and school situations. And, those blacks and Asians who were in higher economic classes were substantially less likely to be involved in crime or fights. But, when I then look at the "poor" whites, the numbers don't seem to hold. I went to schools with a fairly diverse cross section of the population, especially with respect to economics. Thus, I can also look at my school experience and note the "poor" whites with equal validity as I can note the poor blacks. While poorer whites were more likely to engage in "observed behaviors" than wealthier whites, the correlation to wealth was not as strong as it was among minorities. Again, my observations could be suspect, but lets continue to assume they are reliable.

I also am drawing upon my "view" of America pre-Civil rights. In this view, blacks are far less likely to commit crimes, especially against whites, because they will get the shaft. In fact, blacks do anything and everything they can do to avoid being associated with crime, because they absolutely no chance of being judged innocent. Yes, you still have ghettos where crime occurs at a higher rate than elsewhere, but even then, I can't think of any real examples of such crime. Drawing from the literature and media that I have been exposed to, the crime rates seem to be equal among whites and blacks of equal economic status.

So, what I seem to accept is that this break in rate equity occurs around the end of the Civil Rights era (circa 1970). What doesn't make sense to me is why the end of the Civil Rights era would cause this.

I know I've thrown a lot of stuff out here, but I'm really most interested in the last point, namely my assumption that crime among blacks jumped drastically in the early 1970s and why this occurred. I'm willing to admit that my assumptions are just flat out wrong, though it'd be nice to actually see why, as I always like to get rid of unfounded assumptions, despite how I am often portrayed on here. So, try to keep the flaming to a minimum, and.....


GO!

12/14/2005 7:56:37 PM

umm what are you asking seriously??

This bullshit thread is full of counterintuitive rhetoric!!!!!! And false claims, assumptions etc. Thats why I ask this question.

[Edited on December 14, 2005 at 8:06 PM. Reason : what a waste. The Soap Box is lost forever!!!!]

[Edited on December 14, 2005 at 8:07 PM. Reason : yep]

12/14/2005 8:00:21 PM

hehe. i don't think I'm really asking anything. Rather, I'm throwing a lot of shit out there at once, hoping it will spark some intelligent conversation that will enlighten me... I've kind of highlighted the main topics of interest, but since my musings are based upon a series of assumptions, any of which could be wholly wrong, I just laid all the assumptions out there on the table.

but, I'll narrow it down:
if blacks are more likely to commit crimes than whites in the US, then why? and, when did this occur? was it the 1970s? why did this change occur when it did?

12/14/2005 8:04:16 PM

words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words

conclusion: i'm a self important college kid with too much time to ponder redundant topics.


P.S. ITS ABOUT ECONOMIC WELFARE /thread

12/14/2005 8:05:30 PM

ummm. I looked briefly at the economic scenario, but it seems to have holes.

12/14/2005 8:06:55 PM

good thing there aren't any holes in your huge ass paragraphs

12/14/2005 8:07:30 PM

someone find stevenumbers

12/14/2005 8:15:02 PM

lol, people who say "blacks" sound like racists to me for some reason.

Anyways, carry on:

12/14/2005 8:17:29 PM

why, because they don't say something even more preposterous like "African?"

12/14/2005 8:32:22 PM

id love to school you on this, but i am at work now, in the field of law enforcement. perhaps later i will explain my theory. it partially has to do with socio-economic factors but also a culture which has developed due to prolonged exposure to poverty, concentrated poverty and certain policies

12/14/2005 9:24:07 PM

the following experiment needs to be done

randomy take 30 second generation Africans (blacks whose parents immigrated from Africa)

and compare to 30 random blacks who can we born here without their parents, grandparents, or great grandparents having being born in Africa.



when the time comes (in the not too distant future), comparative genomic studies can be done to compare Africans to African Americans (what we generally call 'blacks').

what am i implying? well, as Chris Rock would say, "Do you know what the NFL stands for?" it stands for "Nigga's Fucking Large."

12/14/2005 9:33:48 PM

SNITCHES GET STITCHES

[Edited on December 14, 2005 at 11:05 PM. Reason : in ebonics by accident]

12/14/2005 11:04:37 PM

Quote :

"it partially has to do with socio-economic factors but also a culture which has developed due to prolonged exposure to poverty, concentrated poverty and certain policies"

This would not explain why black commuinties in different countries like France have the exact same problems as in the US.

12/14/2005 11:39:08 PM

uh, i''m pretty sure the "blacks" that were rioting in france had JUST that problem

12/14/2005 11:57:41 PM

id love to school you on this, but i am at work now, in the field of law enforcement. perhaps later i will explain my theory. it partially has to do with socio-economic factors but also a culture which has developed due to the fact that niggas is wildin'.

12/15/2005 12:04:52 AM

Yes, I put far more stock in the cultural aspects of the problem.

Dey be crimin' cause dey dink it kool.

12/15/2005 9:39:42 AM

lololol

Ok ok

Lonesnark

Honestly I used to think you were an idiot.

But you've been a shining star in the Soap Box lately.

GG.

12/15/2005 11:19:06 AM

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#jail

i think there are a several things at play here.

1. the relationship between poverty/unemployment and crime. i think one of the drivers is simple greed combined with laziness. americans are consumer whores - bigger, faster, more $$$ is the trend. to fit in (especially for the younger crowd), name brands are the way to fit in and prove your worth. in some cases, drugs/stealing/etc is the fast way to attain all this. and of course in your poor areas, basic needs must be met. for many, crime is either the only way (in their minds) or is the easiest way.

2. self fullfilling prophesy and cultural norms. over time and over generations, certain theories and beliefs about groups of people are continued. eventually the group begins to believe it themselves and thus become proof of the theory. i.e. if people tell you that you are stupid often and long enough, eventually you will begin to perform poorly. and this isn't just applied on black by whites. it exists in the black culture itself. parents don't encourage their kids to get out of the ghetto, get an education, etc... they don't and then continue it on to their children. thus the cycle continues.

3. racism. i won't dare say that racism doesn't still exist and it doesn't affect blacks and minorities. in southern louisiana for example, white are treated differently than blacks by both white AND black policemen. i have seen this myself on several occasions. so of course this has some impact on who is arrested, who is pulled over, who is let off with a warning, what neighborhoods are patrolled often, how quick response is, etc.

4. education level. there is correlation between education level, job opportunities (and thus poverty), and crime.

some interesting reads
http://www.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1183&context=csae
http://www.econ.upenn.edu/Centers/pier/Events/crime-ier-04-01-03.pdf
http://forms.gradsch.psu.edu/equity/sroppapers/2004/MelanconKody.pdf

12/15/2005 11:58:54 AM

Not to get too complicated and drawn into this.

I agree that the poor are more prone to committing theft and crime since they have so little.

I agree that most poor is comprised of Latino, Black and Redneck in and around Raleigh NC.

I believe that is because of how you are brought up and in poor areas you have to be more agressive about your possessions or someone takes it. I also agree that the current "thug" trend in black and latino culture attributes to that. It also brings in laziness in order to be "relaxed" and cool in an attempt to belong to the group.

Rednecks though poor are known for working hard... or not at all hehe. The commonality between all 3 is that they voice their pride for who they are even if they do nothing at all. They are proud of who they are which contribute again to their state.

Women in general can go either way. If they fall in with the bad crowd and being to speak poor english and slang they generally sound stupid regardless of their actual intelligence.

"He dun gone" for example is redneck
"Muh niggas gonna blast some 40's" is black
"Eh Esse.." is latino.

You'll also notice a common attitude between all of them generally trying to assert dominance. They are considered rude, crude and generally unpleasing to those outside their culture.

As a result the majority of society blackballs them and they wind up in poor income housing. Being poor leads to stress and anger and the feeling of being stuck. Thus why more poor people are prone to crime. There are always exceptions but in closing...

If we killed all the Latino gangsters, Black thugs, and white rednecks... there would be less crime... except that there would be noone to work in Fast Food restaurants, collect the trash or do the jobs most of us would hate doing. So society would shift and again there would be poor people... frustrated... instead this time instead of being Latino gangsters, black thugs or white rednecks we'd have new society forming.

That said you can see the above arguement is absolutely stupid. You cannot base crime rate strictly on race. It just so happens that in Raleigh, NC the poor tend to be black and latino.

12/15/2005 12:00:44 PM

^ Actually, NC has one of the lowest white:black ratios of imprisonment. This graph says something like 3:1. It's much worse in other states, with a national average of 9.1.



Steve Sailer is one of the only journalists I've found who seems to be upfront about racial issues, including IQ gaps, etc. He hypothesizes, in one article, that part of the gap has become about young white kids not wanting to get lumped into the perceived "ghetto" culture associated with being black. So they commit fewer crimes. It's an interesting speculation.

http://isteve.com

12/15/2005 2:06:45 PM

poverty causes crime in alot of cases, and the ratio of blacks in poverty to blacks who commit crimes is pretty closely related. They're not poor because they're black, just because they're not criminals because they're black. I'd say it all stems from being first brought over here as slaves, then released with no resources, beaten, sprayed with fire hoses, attacked with dogs, hunted, lynched, etc.

Considering where blacks are in america today, I'd say they've done pretty god damn well so far.

12/15/2005 2:26:13 PM

Quote :

"released with no resources, beaten, sprayed with fire hoses, attacked with dogs, hunted, lynched, etc."

Yes, because that is what every single black person had to endure in those times.

I do agree with the poverty/crime correlation and that blacks did start out on the wrong side of the pverty line, but what I don't understand is why there has been such a dramatic push away from achieving good/positive things that people like MLKjr were working so hard for. I'm takling about instances like the black kids getting booed and called "oreo" by other blacks at the honor roll assemby in middle school. Where boys in certain schools had to be given two sets of books so that they didn't have to be seen with them and get beat up or at least harassed. It just seems like such a big swing from one attitude to another in such a short time frame.

12/15/2005 2:54:31 PM

Quote :

"I do agree with the poverty/crime correlation and that blacks did start out on the wrong side of the pverty line, but what I don't understand is why there has been such a dramatic push away from achieving good/positive things that people like MLKjr were working so hard for. I'm takling about instances like the black kids getting booed and called "oreo" by other blacks at the honor roll assemby in middle school. Where boys in certain schools had to be given two sets of books so that they didn't have to be seen with them and get beat up or at least harassed. It just seems like such a big swing from one attitude to another in such a short time frame."

I find this aspect of the black community really puzzling too. I was watching some old b/w movie on TV the other day, and the black people in it spoke just like the white people. If you watch black TV today, they all have urban accents. Linguistically, there's nothing wrong with that, but it seems to be an odd progression.

If I had to guess, I would say it's either a gov. conspiracy against blacks (promote a more violent culture to lead to their demise), or the civil rights movement in the 60s made blacks too defensive, and paved the way for pro-gang music to get its dirty fingers in main-stream black culture.

12/15/2005 3:27:38 PM

Quote :

"This would not explain why black commuinties in different countries like France have the exact same problems as in the US."

1) they were North African.
2) unemployment was disproportionately represented in these regions, despite the unemployment rate not being exceptionally high. 10% nationally, 40% in the riot areas, which were all-immigrant. communities. theres definately a discrimination element here.
3) the French, Italians, Spanish, and Turks actually tend to be even MORE racist than Americans. Just watch a soccer game involving England or an African nation vs. any of their national teams. It gets ugly.
4) Fascist, nationalist movements are on the rise in Europe as a response to the EU and their community of many nationalities.

these are two TOTALLY different situations.

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 3:54 PM. Reason : .]

12/15/2005 3:53:52 PM

fascism is becoming fasionable

12/15/2005 3:59:43 PM

it really is. when people say republicans here are "fascist" i roll my eyes. there are some dumb mother fuckers here, but the whole cult of nationalist pride is back in europe, especially among stupid middle class white kids. think american history x, but with italians. as immigration to europe grows, they continue to have fodder to recruit with. hell, if they got their shit together here, they could get it going over hispanic immigration.

fuck some fascists


[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 4:06 PM. Reason : .]

12/15/2005 4:03:47 PM

Quote :

"Yes, because that is what every single black person had to endure in those times."

i don't recall saying that... OH, THAT'S BECAUSE i DIDN'T

12/15/2005 4:10:30 PM

Quote :

"i don't recall saying that... OH, THAT'S BECAUSE i DIDN'T"

When you explain the plight of a race on specific actions then seems pretty clear that you are universally applying it. If it doesn't universally apply then don't offer it as a universal excuse.

12/15/2005 7:55:28 PM

I'm sure part of it's socioeconomic, but I suspect another big part is the decades of liberal policies promoting the destruction of the black family and the irrelevance of the black man...

12/15/2005 10:21:44 PM

Hi! My name is TGD. Half of the time I call myself a Libertarian and promote teh personal responsibility. Another half, I spend blaming the liberal administration of Reagan and the Bushes for telling black people to get a divorce. That's the kinda joke that I am. But I want a job at the Republican Party, so I hope you understand. Are you Republican? May I suck your dick? Pleeeease!

12/15/2005 10:26:11 PM

and for the third half of the time, I troll MathFreak!

12/15/2005 10:28:39 PM

A very, very, VERY important part of being a successful troll is to actually be different from usual.

Example to illustrate the point:

Sen Kennedy: I'll go ahead and drink a bottle of whiskey RIGHT NOW!..... HAHAHAHAHA! Got ya!
Everybody:

12/15/2005 10:40:39 PM

^^ And for the fourth half of the time, I troll LoneSnark on my absurd mathematical impossibilities.

12/15/2005 10:48:44 PM

Oleg:

12/15/2005 10:53:09 PM

There are probably valid points in this thread, but not worth the time to go looking for it.

Some of the more overlooked components to a person's tendency to commit a crime include:

1) Risk/Reward - A person steals typically b/c it makes sense given their situation. A millionaire doesn't go a rob a bank b/c, lets face it, he doesn't have to. Granted a lot of criminals are too ignorant/stupid to see the risk/reward of crime and subsequently take unnecessary risks, but generally this factor weighs in to some extent.

2) Cultural opinion of crime - Lets face it, if you live in a community more amenable to crime, you're more likely to not only do it, but think it's ok, if not typical.


I'm sure plenty of you TWWers have lied, cheated, stolen, etc, and yes you knew it was wrong and did it anyway. The bottom line is you found a way to justify it, and odds are these two things above played some role in the decision.


My two cents...

12/16/2005 1:48:36 AM

Quote :

"A millionaire doesn't go a rob a bank b/c, lets face it, he doesn't have to."

thats right. He just gets his accountant to fudge the numbers

so, am I correct in my assumption that the shift occurred after the Civil Rights movement?

12/16/2005 1:52:21 AM

Quote :

"words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words "

12/16/2005 1:56:25 AM

Quote :

"self fullfilling prophesy and cultural norms. over time and over generations, certain theories and beliefs about groups of people are continued. eventually the group begins to believe it themselves and thus become proof of the theory. i.e. if people tell you that you are stupid often and long enough, eventually you will begin to perform poorly."

this would make sense, except for the fact that, as I see it, blacks weren't like this beefore the civil rights era. Yes, there were studies that showed that black school children viewed themselves as undesirable, but blacks were still, by and large, law-abiding citizens and they strived to make as much of themselves as they could. Then, after the civil rights movement, after much of the de jure discrimination is over, and America strived to get rid of the de facto discrimination, you would think that blacks would be itching to prove themselves and to make more of themselves, but it seems that the opposite has occurred. that is what just doesn't make sense to me.

Quote :

"I was watching some old b/w movie on TV the other day, and the black people in it spoke just like the white people."

who was the target audience of this movie? Most of the b/w movies I have seen that were targeted towards whites always showed the stereotypical black man with a less than stellar linguistic ability. The one that comes to mind is the black butler on one of the "Topper" movies. He was all like "yessa missta toppa!" Granted, that movie was targeted at whites, and as such would likely show a negative image of a black man.

12/26/2005 5:54:57 PM

Why blacks are more likely to commit crime:

socioeconomic status: A higher proportion of blacks are born into poor households, which increases their exposure to gang-related crime.

Lower IQ and education levels: The average black has a lower IQ than the average white/azn/latino. Crime has a strong negative correlation with education and IQ levels.

Higher testosterone levels: Black males on average have higher testosterone levels than whites/azns/latinos. High testosterone levels increase the likelihood of violent crime. This is evident in justice department statistics which show that more than half of all violent crimes are committed by blacks.

Racism from law-enforcement and the judicial system undoubtedly play a part in conviction rates, but these are the primary causes of racial discrepancies with respect to crime.

[Edited on December 26, 2005 at 6:23 PM. Reason : 2]

12/26/2005 6:22:03 PM

^^ It was a movie about Jackie Robinson, I think (some first black baseball player thing). If we could find an audio clip of Jackie speaking, it could confirm/deny the movie-ification of the black actors.

As of yet, I haven't read or seen anything, anywhere that would show that blacks started to change particularly negatively after the civil rights movement. So far, it's just a conjecture of this thread, supported merely by circumstantial evidences. It would be interesting if someone actually did a study to confirm it.

12/27/2005 3:01:10 AM