that He let Himself be known before death.
(Subtitled: "Why secular humanism is better for enacting Earthly progress")

DISCLAIMER AND APOLOGY: this is a lot to read, but if you're in the Soapbox I assume you have no aversion to some words

For the sake of this, let's assume there is a God (which, for me, is a stretch). Ok, done. Now, depending on how you fall on the line of Earth-as-purgatory or Earth-as-leading-to-something-else, God's intentions may or may not be that dangerous to earthly existence (since it's supposed to suck anyway). If Earth is supposed to be a pretty cool place, though, I would argue that God kinda fucked it up by letting His presence known before we died. I call this the theme park principle:

If we were all in charge of running a theme park, let's say Carowinds (i.e. Earth), but knew from getting the job we would eventually be promoted to Disney World (i.e. Heaven), I think we would be less likely to improve the conditions at Carowinds. "Need a new rollercoaster?" "Fuck no! Disney World's got like two hundred of them bitches. We just gotta wait this whole Carowinds thing out."

To extrapolate the theme park principle, this basically means that Christians - here I mean Christians in the everyday perverted sense, not true believers who do in fact love their neighbors despite the fact that they may creep them out with male-on-male kisses or darker skin tones - would be more concerned with only those Earthly actions which would lead them to Heaven. They may still perform good works (esp. if they're Calvinist in bent), but still with a selfish motivation. This is kinda like Islamic suicide bombers killing themselves for countless virgins. "Oh way to kill all those people! You'll get that holy pussy now." versus "Way to donate 10% every Sunday, you'll get those streets paved with gold now." Difference of course, but only in act, not motivation.

Secular humanists, on the other hand, base their actions on the assumptions that life is *all* we have, and we should therefore make the best of it. This naturally leads to environmentalism (something a fair amount of Christians also tend to ignore, since you need that Yukon to get to church) and a general regard for the state of things.

If I were God (and if I get everything I asked for on my Christmas list, I'll be well on my way), I would've made Heaven a big surprise. That way, people would actually think about how their actions affect the fate of humanity +200 years down the road. We wouldn't be constantly updating the "Rapture Schedule" to whatever clock we think God's running on.

This would also clear up the whole fire protection bullshit people got running. "I don't know if there is a God, but just in case I put Jesus on my resume." Do you really think this shit works? If there is a God I hope he doesn't fall for that crap now. I'd rather have someone who stuck to their atheist guns while performing the hell outta some good deeds rather than one who really couldn't care less, did even less, and just happened to mention Jesus to save their soul. At least that's what I'm hoping...

/rant

12/22/2005 10:30:53 PM

this is a stupid thread that i'm not even reading

12/22/2005 10:33:21 PM

dude, that's why with the disclaimer. Don't read it, but why post about not reading it.

I'm not going to read your reply...SHIT

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 10:37 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2005 10:34:27 PM

Quote :

"If Earth is supposed to be a pretty cool place, though, I would argue that God kinda fucked it up "

we fucked it up by not following His 1 rule

ONE FUCKING RULE

Quote :

"They may still perform good works (esp. if they're Calvinist in bent"

calvinism can be an excuse to do Less as a Christian
you're probably thinking of a Weslyan (or the source who actually wrote this)

Quote :

"If I were God "

i'll remember to thank Him that you're not

Quote :

""I don't know if there is a God, but just in case I put Jesus on my resume." Do you really think this shit works? "

anyone who thinks it would work is dumber than you

Quote :

"I'd rather have someone who stuck to their atheist guns while performing the hell outta some good deeds "

too bad your good deeds will never outnumber your sins

Merry Christmas fool

12/22/2005 10:38:48 PM

i <3 being a calvanist

12/22/2005 10:40:57 PM

me too Guth

P > *

12/22/2005 10:41:29 PM

predetermination is such a stress releiver

12/22/2005 10:43:15 PM

I'm a Hobbesist.

12/22/2005 10:44:32 PM

hell yeah

unconditional election + perseverence of the saints =

12/22/2005 10:48:14 PM

Quote :

"you're probably thinking of a Weslyan (or the source who actually wrote this)"

ok, sorry Weslyan. but thx for having no faith in my writing ability

Quote :

"anyone who thinks it would work is dumber than you"

You would be surprised how many people I've heard this from. Not the resume thing exactly, but certainly "I don't know if there really is a God, but I go to church and got saved just in case." I guess your church weeds out the ones on the fence.

Quote :

"too bad your good deeds will never outnumber your sins"

Thanks! Too bad you don't know either...but from pesonal experience, I would say I contribute to threads more readily than troll them away.

Quote :

"Merry Christmas fool"

Happy Holidays!

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 10:49 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2005 10:48:22 PM

Quote :

"ok, sorry Weslyan. but thx for having no faith in my writing ability"

writing ability has nothing to do with it

these are all ideas that get passed around all willy nilly by someone when they "discover" secular humanism or atheism

ps

http://www.cresourcei.org/tulip.html

12/22/2005 10:50:45 PM

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=75081

Quote :

"Hi. You're probably new to the Wolf Web. In fact, I'm willing to bet you're new to college in general. It's an exciting time, isn't it? I'm sure that you have been exposed to many ideas and perspectives you'd never realized existed, and you're just bursting with enthusiasm at the thought of sharing a few ideas of your own with your peers now that you find yourself in an academic environment that seems perfectly suited to such an exchange. Why don't we go a little further? Odds are you consider yourself very intelligent. In fact, you're probably so intelligent that you've figured out all the quirks and kinks of organized religion--or at least Christianity. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You were probably raised in a Christian household and resent that upbringing for limiting your personal freedoms, so it's only natural that you'd seek to undermine Christ's teachings and save others from having such a faulty belief system for their own good. Pretty cool of you, isn't it? You've really got it together. FUCK YOU YOU STUPID FUCKING FAGGOT COLLEGE KID LET ME TELL YOU A SECRET NONE OF YOUR THOUGHTS ON RELIGION ARE RADICAL OR EVEN THOUGHT-PROVOKING IT'S NO SECRET YOU GOT THEM OFF A FUCKING WEBSITE WE'VE ALL READ THE PROSELYTIZER QUESTIONNAIRE TOO NOTHING YOU CAN SAY IS GOING TO LEND A FRESH OUTLOOK DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT FOR SEVERAL FUCKING CENTURIES NOW SOME OF THE MOST EDUCATED PEOPLE IN THE ANNALS OF HUMAN HISTORY HAVE DEVOTED THEIR LIVES TO ANSWERING DEEPER THEOLOGICAL CONCERNS THAN YOUR PETTY BULLSHIT ABOUT THE DISCREPANCIES IN THE GENEALOGIES OF CHRIST IN THE GOSPELS? I MEAN HOLY FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE THE ONLY COCKSUCKER WHO EVER NOTICED THAT OR SOMETHING?! WAKE THE FUCK UP YOU'RE STILL JUST A STUPID KID AND WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS SHAMEFUL INCONSIDERATE AND DISRESPECTFUL BECAUSE MAYBE YOU'RE TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY TO LIVE ACCORDING TO A STRICT MORAL CODE AND MAYBE YOU'RE TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY TO ACTUALLY TRY AND DEVELOP A STRONG, HONORABLE CHARACTER BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT FOR YOU TO ATTACK MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY TO PLAY THE VICTIM TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY "FORCE THEIR BELIEFS" ON YOU BY HANDING OUT A FUCKING PAMPHLET I MEAN HOLY FUCKING CHRIST WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS TEN TIMES WORSE GET OVER YOURSELF ALREADY THIS REBELLION AGAINST MOMMY AND DADDY ISN'T IMPRESSING ANYONE WE'VE SEEN IT BEFORE YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST YOU ARE NOT EVEN REMARKABLE STOP ARGUING WITH GARY HE IS MAKING A FOOL OF YOU I SWEAR UPON THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE PIERCED FUCKING JEW KING THAT IF YOU PULL THIS SALISBURYBOY, SYLVERSHADOW KIND OF SHIT ON ME YOU WORTHLESS WICCAN PANTYSTAIN I WILL SPLIT THE TENDER TISSUES OF YOUR WEEPING ASSHOLE WITH A HARDCOVER EDITION OF THE NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION OF THE HOLY FUCKING BIBLE YOU THINK YOU'RE SO FUCKING SMART I'D LIKE TO SEE YOU DO THE SAME SHIT WITH ANY RELIGION BESIDES CHRISTIANITY OR JUDAISM WITH SOME BOOK BESIDES THE BIBLE OR THE TORAH YOU AIDS-FELCHING CUM FLAKE SO PUT THAT IN YOUR FUCKING PIPE YOU JUST BOUGHT FROM BUDDHA'S BELLY THE FIRST WEEKEND YOU WERE UP HERE AND SMOKE IT YOU FUCKING FAGGOT COLLEGE KID and that's my word. -FroshKiller @ 11/28/2002 5:03:40 AM"

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 10:54 PM. Reason : link]

12/22/2005 10:52:06 PM

Quote :

"Too bad you don't know either...but from pesonal experience, I would say I contribute to threads more readily than troll them away."

ha, you think i'm trolling

thats funny

and it doesn't matter if i know your good deeds or your sin
i do know that no man can "good deed" his way into heaven

12/22/2005 10:52:12 PM

it's not like I just discovered IT, I just discovered the Soapbox. Ranting about life is cool here, right? I could move it to Tech Talk. Wait, the Garage. There was that whole piece about roller coasters.

And I am truly sorry about the Weslyan/Calvinist thing. It's mostly because I'm too lazy to even look up something on the Internet (and yes, that's really lazy). It does kill my credibility, though, so I fucked up. My b.

I really just wanted to rant, note the /rant, and though people may actually want to rant back, you know, but with real answers. Again, my b.

Quote :

"serious responses on tww! bwa ha ha!"

No, I'm not new to college, but thank you for assuming that new people aren't as jaded as the old. I am new to WolfWeb, though, thanks for the welcome.

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 10:59 PM. Reason : ^^]

12/22/2005 10:57:26 PM

explain to me how my second response isn't serious

12/22/2005 10:59:01 PM

Explain to me how my first is...

I thought by pointing out a bad good deed/bad deed ratio you were trying to provoke me or say something like "I'm better than you are, here's what I've done..."

If you're just being internetty, I'm sorry.

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 11:02 PM. Reason : ^]

12/22/2005 11:01:26 PM

Quote :

"thanks for the welcome."

lest you forget

you did try to shit on the God and beliefs some of us subscribe to

12/22/2005 11:02:24 PM

Quote :

"unconditional election + perseverence of the saints = "

Woodfoot knows whats up

12/22/2005 11:03:54 PM

Quote :

"If you're just being internetty, I'm sorry."

what the fuck does that even mean

you made a bunch of claims
after initially writing this off as "another atheist thinks they're bringing the knowledge and the new logic" thread, i offer my opposition

you're probably gonna be a failure on this website btw

12/22/2005 11:05:35 PM

Quote :

"no man can "good deed" his way into heaven"

12/22/2005 11:07:06 PM

I wasn't shitting on the Faith, if it's what you actually follow. I find no fault with religion, it's mainly the misuse of it. I grew up Southern Baptist (although they are a little ~ Christianity-wise), and they were/are some of the nicest people I known. Also, Boy Scouts - mostly Christian, very nice.

I was just entertaining the thought that if God wanted to make Earth a better place to live He may have done it a better way. This being said, and as I metioned in the first post, if Earth is not supposed to be a good place (i.e. fortunate fall) than the point is relatively trivial.

My main thing was to see how many people felt Earth was purtagory-on-purpose or just imperfect because we haven't gotten there yet.

^Interwebby = 3lite = whatever.

V ~ Christianity-wise = let's hate on Catholics, too

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 11:12 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2005 11:09:50 PM

Quote :

"although they are a little ~ Christianity-wise"

12/22/2005 11:11:15 PM

you sound like you are angry at God
which is confusing because you can't be angry at God and not beleive in him

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 11:13 PM. Reason : but maybe you have just been mislead about what christianity is]

12/22/2005 11:12:34 PM

What does it mean if you're angry at god and you DO believe in him?

12/22/2005 11:13:36 PM

theres lots of people like that
so i guess it would mean you are pretty normal

12/22/2005 11:14:10 PM

^^^see now that's the kind of response I was looking for.

I'm not really sure, it's more like I'm an agnostic and rant in extremes to get to a medium point. Dialectical thinking, at its worst probably.

And no, I grew up really Christian, read the Bible, and everything. I'm still a follower of Christ, in that I believe Jesus from head to toe, but I'm not sold on the afterlife thing.



[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 11:17 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2005 11:14:20 PM

thats the type of response you were looking for? and not all the other good points that have been made already?

12/22/2005 11:17:07 PM

Quote :

"What does it mean if you're angry at god and you DO believe in him?"

plenty of things probably

12/22/2005 11:18:16 PM

Quote :

"I'm still a follower of Christ, in that I believe Jesus from head to toe, but I'm not sold on the afterlife thing. "

haha wait what?
i think you missed a couple chapters

12/22/2005 11:20:23 PM

Well, aside from TGD's quote-post, mostly all I got was,

Quote :

"I'll thank him your not"

and line-veto shit that really is more tertiary to the debate. Your attitude was at least questioning, not straight up accusatory. A converstation's all I want; I picked the wrong place apparently.

Quote :

"If you're looking for a conversation, go to a fucking coffee house you fucking hippie ass loser pot-head liberal atheist...something"

Again, my b. I'll start posting owls.

^No, I got it. It was all in red right? His teachings are the important part. If the only way to God is through Jesus, and God is Love, than Jesus teaches the way to love - and practiced it. In my original draft of the 1st post I actually had a clause about Christianity in practice being weird, not in theory, but I took it out.

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 11:25 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2005 11:21:41 PM

Quote :

"JonHGuth: haha wait what? i think you missed a couple chapters"

I was getting ready to post the same thing...but then reminded myself there was a reason I tossed in FroshKiller's wisdom...

12/22/2005 11:24:01 PM

um, even the "red part" has stuff about the afterlife

12/22/2005 11:26:03 PM

And as far as Froshkiller's wisdom:

yes, I will gladly rip apart any religion other than Christianity or Judaism. If you don't analyze what you're being taught then how do you know what's right?

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Too much to ask to entertain a thought?

And yes, the red parts do have after-life stuff. My issue with the Bible is how it's been translated, rearranged, retranslated, and written originally by those other than Jesus himself. Now, assuming that the red parts are accurate, then yes, I pick and choose which parts of Jesus to listen to.

This goes back to my questioning of God, and His being or exisiting as the ethereal Love. God exists, then Jesus is His son, afterlife exists, no prob. If God doesn't exist, Jesus was misquoted but still mostly right.

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 11:36 PM. Reason : ^]

12/22/2005 11:29:43 PM

You realize the Froshkiller things was written in 2002?

Also, what's your beef with Islam and Hinduism over Christianity and the other oen?

12/22/2005 11:36:21 PM

Quote :

"Secular humanists, on the other hand, base their actions on the assumptions that life is *all* we have, and we should therefore make the best of it. This naturally leads to environmentalism (something a fair amount of Christians also tend to ignore, since you need that Yukon to get to church) and a general regard for the state of things."

This implies that humans will naturally select the course that is best for humanity as a whole.

That is a HUGE leap of faith.

12/22/2005 11:37:44 PM

^Whoa whoa whoa, don't go that far. Humans need some sort of control, because some/most are fucked in the head. Government's one way, religion is another. Some people do have innate senses of justice and good will, though, and if only they can set up the jails and death sqauds...then we'll have something. I'm not saying religion in theory is bad, just in practice.


^^Islam's okay, but it's very regimented and oppression oriented. Ripe for misuse.

Hinduisms really interesting from a metaphorical point of view, with all the various gods. I've heard tell of Hindu militants, which is pretty weird, but I think Hinduism overall is pretty neat.I don't really have the faith to believe in gods, which also goes back to my after-life thing.

I guess I'm cynical, but God made me that way.

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 11:49 PM. Reason : ^]

12/22/2005 11:45:39 PM

you're misusing unconditional election

12/22/2005 11:48:45 PM

yeah man. I think Calvinism might be the way to go now.

Wikipedia (I know, I know):

Quote :

"He would save by means of Christ's death and the work of the Holy Spirit, for no other reason than His own wise, just, and gracious purpose."

12/22/2005 11:54:01 PM

Quote :

"ru1dt: God exists, then Jesus is His son, afterlife exists, no prob. If God doesn't exist, Jesus was misquoted but still mostly right."

If Jesus was misquoted, how is he "still mostly right"...since you wouldn't know wtf he actually said?

12/22/2005 11:55:17 PM

basically we beleive you do good things because thats what you are supposed to do
it has nothing to do with getting into heaven

12/22/2005 11:55:44 PM

^^
well...if you believe all of it:

(some of it ) is contained in (all of it)

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:15 AM. Reason : ^]

12/22/2005 11:56:20 PM

if God doesn't exist then Jesus is a liar

[Edited on December 22, 2005 at 11:57 PM. Reason : ^ps i have no idea what that post says]

12/22/2005 11:56:44 PM

^ He's saying that he likes it in the butt.

12/22/2005 11:59:03 PM

^^Eccentric. I like William Blake's work too, but he was also fucked up.

Not to compare Blake to Jesus, which he is not.

Quote :

"oh, I see what you did there"

I'm just saying:
-Treat everyone as your neighbor
-Give your last to help others
-Give everyone a chance
-[even] the way to God is love

are A++++ philosophies that I wish more people followed.

^^ some is contained in all is basically saying that if I believe some of what's being said, and it's wrong, then since you believe all of it means you're even worse. Which makes this argument kinda useless, since you don't want to be worse.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:09 AM. Reason : exta ^]

12/23/2005 12:00:13 AM

welp, you do have a lot of things "wrong" in your little rant, so here goes:

Quote :

"If Earth is supposed to be a pretty cool place, though, I would argue that God kinda fucked it up by letting His presence known before we died."

like woodfoot said, we fucked it up, not Him. plus, if the premise of the religion is to be saved, then how can you be "saved" if you don't know that you need to be saved (ie, God didn't let his presence be known to us before we died?) Whats the point of the classical religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc) in such a case?

You do seem to be pondering the whole "why does heaven exist" thing, which is a quite common ponderance, right up there with "why do good things happen to bad people." But really, I think you've just got some misconceptions, especially about Christianity.

Quote :

"I mean Christians in the everyday perverted sense, not true believers who do in fact love their neighbors despite the fact that they may creep them out with male-on-male kisses or darker skin tones - would be more concerned with only those Earthly actions which would lead them to Heaven."

Thats your #1 problem. You aren't separating the religion from those who claim to be of the religion. Those everyday perverted Christians are likely to do what you talked about: do only what it takes to get to heaven. Unfortunately, somebody else put it perfectly: works do not save you. If you missed that from Jesus's teachings then I really do have to wonder what else you missed. Jesus is pretty explicit about it, as is Paul. You speak of a "ratio" of good to bad as if it actually matters. It doesn't. There is only one thing that matters, and it has nothing to do with good deeds.

A natural question, of course, is how can you claim to be a Christian and not have good deeds? The answer is you can't. Paul says (IIRC) that faith without works is useless. Now, how many works do you need? I dunno. I don't even know if the quantity matters, and I doubt it does. This, too, is one of the "biggies" as far as questions go for Christianity, at least to me.

Quote :

"This naturally leads to environmentalism"

sorry, but this is a bit of a non-sequitur from what you say secular humanism is about. Based on the "life is all we have" argument, environmentalism really isn't a natural consequence. If anything, the "life is all we have" argument, to me, would seem to suggest the opposite. As in, "hey, I'm gonna live once... fuck those people 100 years from now..." My brief glance at wikipedia, however, tells me that secular humanism is based not upon "life is all we have," but rather on the basic premise that humans have basic rights. It may be true to say that a secular humanist is an atheist, and thus you can extrapolate that a secular humanist likely believes that life is all we have, but that is not his motivation for helping humans. Rather, his belief in basic human rights is what motivates him. Thus, another misconception is causing you to scratch your head

So, you might ask "why would a Christian be motivated to help his fellow man?" Easy question to answer. 1) God and Jesus told us to do so, so from your "good deeds" idea, thats one motivation; 2) If we believe that a "true" Christian aims to be a "Christ follower," then it makes sense that a true Christian would engage in behavior similar to what Christ did, not because he wants to get to heaven, but rather because he is following Christ's example; 3) similar to number 2, it also makes sense that a true Christian would want to emmulate God as a means of "worshiping God." Thus, since most Christians believe God to be compassionate and caring, then a true Christian would also be the same.

Quote :

"This would also clear up the whole fire protection bullshit people got running."

yeah, "fire protection," known better as "Pascal's Wager," is not likely to be a characteristic of a true Christian...

Quote :

"I'd rather have someone who stuck to their atheist guns while performing the hell outta some good deeds rather than one who really couldn't care less, did even less, and just happened to mention Jesus to save their soul."

again, though, "for it is by faith that you are saved, and not by works." (somewhere in the NT, written by Paul) And, quite frankly, somebody that just "mentioned Jesus to save their soul" and didn't actually "do anything" is probably not "going to heaven," because has such a person really "accepted Jesus," or has he just given lip-service? If Jesus's example tells us anything, its that God hates lipservice.

12/23/2005 12:01:26 AM

^^your writing confuses me
its like you have your own shorthand that no one else knows

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:02 AM. Reason : .]

12/23/2005 12:02:18 AM

^ Actually, you are just getting old. I don't know if you have younger cousins, but if you read their IMs, it's the same kind of drivel.



[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:05 AM. Reason : wait a minute, r1... is a grad student]

12/23/2005 12:04:50 AM

If by new drivel you mean "classic Aristotelian argumentation schemes," then yes, drivel. You have to slow down and look at all the words, used in succession, to make the point. Skimming is not encouraged.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:12 AM. Reason : splg]

12/23/2005 12:07:15 AM

and im not old
but i dont understand his use of parenthesis and brackets or what "Eccentric." means

im not trying to pick on grammar, i just really dont understand what he is saying

12/23/2005 12:07:47 AM

i just added the extra ^ above, I was referring to Jesus, not to you, as the eccentric.

and I apologize for making you think that. I make it a habit not to insult people I don't really know.

[Edited on December 23, 2005 at 12:11 AM. Reason : apology]

12/23/2005 12:09:50 AM