http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/health/bal-te.meth28dec28,1,2219051.story?coll=bal-health-headlines

Wtf? I stay off meth weekly, give me $40 worth of vouchers. If this is about trying to make people productive members of society, incarcerate them where they can't get drugs and put them to work doing jobs that the blood sucking immigrants do that other Americans won't. That has triple benefits, gets meth heads off the street, keeps wage costs low where immigrants would be doing the job (like, picking tomatoes, I wouldn't want a mether building my roof), and keeps the immigrants from leaching on the system.

1/2/2006 11:36:51 PM

I say just shoot them

1/2/2006 11:40:21 PM

To help pay for our huge prison system, we should do two things:
Make drug use/sales a misdemeaner offense, (dramatically reducing the prison population).
Auction off prison labor to the highest bidder. The prisoners get to keep a percentage, the rest goes to the state.

1/3/2006 12:27:00 AM

Bupe

[Edited on January 3, 2006 at 1:10 AM. Reason : n/m, thats for heroin]

1/3/2006 1:09:44 AM

Quote :

"Bart: And I'll take up smoking and give that up. Homer: Good for you, son. Giving up smoking is one of the hardest things you'll ever have to do. Have a dollar. [gives a dollar bill to Bart] Lisa: But he didn't do anything! Homer: Didn't he, Lisa? Didn't he? "

1/3/2006 10:00:22 AM

Question is, how long would we pay them to stay off meth? After they stop taking payments, will they return to the drug, and when they do, will we just start paying them again?

1/3/2006 10:30:05 AM

They get increasingly greater payments that still don't amount to that much. They range between 2.50 and 10.00 if this is the same program I heard about on the radio. While it is not as effective as rehab, it is cheaper by a huge amount. Basically the doctor in charge of this thing said that even a small amount of positive reinforcement can go a long way to changing a person's behavior. People in other treatment avenues are angry about it, saying it takes away their money to be used for rehab or whatever they do, but this uses a relatively small amount so I don't see the harm in at least continuing to study it.

1/4/2006 11:41:05 AM

well I imagine that the money they are paying them is only a minor fraction of the costs of running the drug tests when they show up for the program

1/4/2006 12:02:18 PM

Quote :

"Wtf? I stay off meth weekly, give me $40 worth of vouchers."

Go on it first.

1/4/2006 12:41:28 PM

you had me until

Quote :

"blood sucking immigrants"

1/4/2006 2:11:34 PM

The immigrants do a lot of the shitty jobs that a lot of other people don't want to do...like food service, picking crops, and cleaning stuff.

So I'd say they're necessary.

1/4/2006 3:07:09 PM

Did you even read the post or is your memory so short you forgot from the time you read it to when you clicked Reply?

1/4/2006 3:13:29 PM

what do immigrants have to do with methamphetamines?

1/4/2006 5:39:08 PM

I would think meth addicts, even those in prison, would be the leeches on the system

[Edited on January 4, 2006 at 6:09 PM. Reason : n]

1/4/2006 6:09:14 PM

cheaper than imprisoning them.

1/4/2006 8:16:50 PM

killing them is even cheaper. they tried it in germany a while back.

1/4/2006 9:57:17 PM

Quote :

"The immigrants do a lot of the shitty jobs that a lot of other people don't want to do"

Then the jobs don't get done or you pay someone whatever it takes to get it done. Why do people keep expousing this nonsense?

1/5/2006 10:13:57 AM

Ahaahahahaah expousing.

1/5/2006 10:20:23 AM

Quote :

"Then the jobs don't get done or you pay someone whatever it takes to get it done. Why do people keep expousing this nonsense?"

You ever think that the company might exist because it's able to pay so low for labor? You force them to pay more for labor just so Americans will lower themselves to the job and their costs will go up. When will you people start to understand ELP-level economics?

1/5/2006 11:33:51 AM

^ I spent about two minutes trying to figure out your post but then just decided that you are retarded.


I don't know if this program will work as well as they expect, but you can't argue against the fact that $40 a week is much less than the cost of keeping them in jail. I guess it may be a fine trade-off. There's an instinctual reaction to say "Hey, that guy is getting something for free, I want it," but in reality, that guy has like ten STDs and pisses on himself regularly.

Quote :

"In essence, the voucher approach replaces one reward with another - the high of drugs with the mental boost of grocery money..."

Comparing blowing a big line of meth to going grocery shopping made me laugh.

1/5/2006 11:48:33 AM

^
Yep, I'm retarded. And we should definitely pay people for developing a drug habit, because hey... their life sucks and they piss on themselves. So it's ok.

1/5/2006 11:51:48 AM

You're right, the best economic policy would be (I would argue) to drastically scale back the majority of social welfare programs and overhaul or eliminate drug laws and punishments.

If you think that you can get even some of this done without shipping all of the Libertarians to Cuba to create our own little social experiment, than I recommend you fucking hop to it, because Bush et al. sure as shit aren't doing much about it.

Also, you're calling out one of the only economic conservatives on this board (LoneSnark). And one who, I would wager, judging from his posts, knows a shit-ton more about the U.S. economy than you do.

1/5/2006 12:12:50 PM

Quote :

"There's an instinctual reaction to say "Hey, that guy is getting something for free, I want it," but in reality, that guy has like ten STDs and pisses on himself regularly."

1/5/2006 12:15:20 PM

Quote :

"put them to work doing jobs that the blood sucking immigrants do that other Americans won't. That has triple benefits, gets meth heads off the street, keeps wage costs low where immigrants would be doing the job (like, picking tomatoes, I wouldn't want a mether building my roof), and keeps the immigrants from leaching on the system."

Is this one of the bloodsucking immigrants you're talking about?

But seriously, I don't see how immigrants are leeching on the system by doing jobs.

[Edited on January 5, 2006 at 1:48 PM. Reason : .]

1/5/2006 1:47:54 PM

^taxes, if he says anything else you'll know he's a dumbass

1/5/2006 2:04:23 PM

but if you make a bunch of immigrants unemployed by giving their jobs to meth addicted prisoners, it seems like you're only going to make the immigrants leech more rather than less.

1/5/2006 2:37:23 PM

how so?

1/5/2006 2:43:52 PM

in that a person with a job can buy things they need and a person without a job has to find a way to receive them freely.

not that i consider immigrants leeches, I was just going on long with his terminology

[Edited on January 5, 2006 at 3:06 PM. Reason : .]

1/5/2006 2:57:48 PM

Quote :

"a person without a job has to find a way to receive them freely."

unless you're referring to stealing, I'm lost here, I don't think they're going to get much government aid

1/5/2006 3:19:36 PM

I didn't have a specific source in mind. If you suddenly had a bunch of unemployed immigrants, they're most likely going to find a way to eat still which will become a social cost if they don't have a legit job. Whether gov picks up the tab or charities, or they participate in illegal activities for income or whatever is kind of beside the point.

1/5/2006 3:25:51 PM

The whole meth addicts doing immigrant jobs doesn't cure an immigrant 'problem' that can and should be cured another way (tighter border control). It does however provide employers currently using cheap immigrant labor a means to replace those workers they lose when we kick them out of the country.

In regards to leeching, you have the babies that are born of illegals that we have to support in our school systems for one. Then, what many people don't understand is the mexicans are breaking the money conveyor belt when money they earned in the US gets shipped back to Mexico to their families there (yes I am aware they might be buying US goods with this money, but not all of it).

Perhaps blood sucking was a bit too strong a word to use, but you get the idea.

1/5/2006 4:53:41 PM

Quote :

"Then, what many people don't understand is the mexicans are breaking the money conveyor belt when money they earned in the US gets shipped back to Mexico to their families there (yes I am aware they might be buying US goods with this money, but not all of it)."

services in exchange for money

how is this different from trade?

1/5/2006 4:56:57 PM

giving money to your mother in mexico is no different than giving money to your mother in michegan

the only difference is that one make an almost insignificant impact on national statistics

1/5/2006 5:15:51 PM

im gonna go to san francisco, buy some meth and use it in front of a cop, get arrested, go on this program and collect money. $40 for doing NOTHING but shoing up for a drug test... i'll take it

1/5/2006 5:22:30 PM

[/sarcasm]

1/5/2006 5:46:29 PM

^^^^ I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about because it doesn't relate to what you quoted at all.

1/6/2006 12:50:37 AM

yes, it does

you're saying that immigrants work jobs(provide a service to american employers). In exchange for the services they provide, they are given money. Now, worst case scenario: they send all of their money back home(which is impossible because they still have to live while working).

My question to you: how is this any different from trade? Another country gives us goods in exchange for money. Immigrants give services in exchange for money. I see no difference. Maybe you understood this time...

1/6/2006 1:07:05 AM

LoneSnark, I'm for the idea of cheap prison labor... but they would have to give u a guard for them or they may escape. They can't do too much work in cuffs. But if we could somehow work this out, I'd be for it... I need some storage shelves built.

But on topic, what's to stop ppl from going on meth just for the sake of getting the money. Like for instance if they're homeless or just plain poor... why not start taking meth so that you can get the funds?? I don't think I like this...

1/6/2006 3:54:36 AM

Have any of you ever bought drugs before? Have any of you ever done METHAMPHETAMINES? No one is going to start doing meth for forty fucking dollars. Trust me.

While we're on the topic (of money, that is), arguing against illegal immigration using the money leaving the country as your reasoning is about one of the flimsiest arguments you can make. Money leaves the country every day, on much, much larger scales. Really, the only good argument against illegal immigration is how we may be fostering a "watered down" culture, or losing our national identity. Every other argument against illegal immigration (crime, welfare, etc) have pretty much been proven wrong, I think.

[Edited on January 6, 2006 at 10:28 AM. Reason : nation-al]

1/6/2006 10:06:01 AM

^ No they have not. Illegal immigration engenders the creation of a black market for labor which is rediculously destructive for both the individual immigrant and the society at large. For example, now companies are being required to spend millions researching their employees to make sure they are citizens or they face lawsuits or governmental shutdown.

1/6/2006 10:47:20 AM

It takes millions to say "show us a social security card, birth certificate, or visa or you can't work here"

1/6/2006 10:56:12 AM

^^ Sounds to me like you're arguing against corporate regulation, not immigration.

Salisburyboy quoted an article that used a Wal-Mart cashier making $19/hour as their example of someone who was "pushed out" by immigrant workers. If I was an exec at Wal-Mart I'd be fuming that we paid a cashier $19/hour and replace them with someone who would do it cheaper, Mexican or not, ASAP.

1/6/2006 11:02:00 AM

Quote :

"incarcerate them where they can't get drugs"

it's easier and cheaper to get drugs in prison than it is on the streets

1/6/2006 11:28:28 AM

Quote :

"you're saying that immigrants work jobs(provide a service to american employers). In exchange for the services they provide, they are given money. Now, worst case scenario: they send all of their money back home(which is impossible because they still have to live while working). My question to you: how is this any different from trade? Another country gives us goods in exchange for money. Immigrants give services in exchange for money. I see no difference. Maybe you understood this time..."

These two statements aren't even connected together correctly on their own and the second one doesn't even address my comment about money going back to the native country. Try again.

Quote :

"While we're on the topic (of money, that is), arguing against illegal immigration using the money leaving the country as your reasoning is about one of the flimsiest arguments you can make. Money leaves the country every day, on much, much larger scales."

Those more skilled in debate than I, tell me which fallacy this is, I am sure it is one, just don't know which.

Quote :

"Really, the only good argument against illegal immigration is how we may be fostering a "watered down" culture, or losing our national identity. Every other argument against illegal immigration (crime, welfare, etc) have pretty much been proven wrong, I think."

So you mean to tell me a nation built on "give me your tired, your poor..." immigrants, with a melting pot mixture, is getting watered down by immigrants?

[Edited on January 6, 2006 at 1:31 PM. Reason : oops]

1/6/2006 1:30:58 PM

Wow, you are a fucktard. Your argument is that you can't comprehend simple sentences.

GTFO

1/6/2006 3:33:05 PM

1.

Quote :

" Quote : "While we're on the topic (of money, that is), arguing against illegal immigration using the money leaving the country as your reasoning is about one of the flimsiest arguments you can make. Money leaves the country every day, on much, much larger scales." Those more skilled in debate than I, tell me which fallacy this is, I am sure it is one, just don't know which."

Fallacy? What is the difference between GM buying spark plugs from Mexico and the guy who works at GM sending money home to his family in Mexico? What do you think the trade deficit is? It's the difference between how much money we are sending to other countries and how much they are sending to us. I can't back this up with anything except common sense, but I'm pretty sure that the amount of money illegals are sending home is miniscule when you look at the rest of the picture.

2.

Quote :

" "Really, the only good argument against illegal immigration is how we may be fostering a "watered down" culture, or losing our national identity. Every other argument against illegal immigration (crime, welfare, etc) have pretty much been proven wrong, I think." So you mean to tell me a nation built on "give me your tired, your poor..." immigrants, with a melting pot mixture, is getting watered down by immigrants?"

Absolutely. Well, your use of "is" implies that I said that it's too late, or something to that effect, which I didn't. But yes, I think that Bush's open-door policy could turn out badly. I was going to go into how I forsee a rise in Nationalism and an eventual backlash, but I'm pretty tired and I'm about to get off of work. We've already seen some of that in the Minutemen. Seems pretty common sense to me, but sometimes it gets hard to hear myself think what with all the libruls running around screaming "racism."

3.

Quote :

"Try again."

Don't be a dick about it. Especially when your arguments are so weak.

1/6/2006 4:14:44 PM

Quote :

"What is the difference between GM buying spark plugs from Mexico and the guy who works at GM sending money home to his family in Mexico?"

That's exactly what I was saying.

1/6/2006 4:19:24 PM

Quote :

"Fallacy? What is the difference between GM buying spark plugs from Mexico and the guy who works at GM sending money home to his family in Mexico?"

The difference is if that illegal were an American worker, that money stays in the US. I'm not even trying to argue trade deficits or that whole issue, that is something else, so leave it out of here, thats your fallacy. Furthermore

Quote :

"can't back this up with anything except common sense, but I'm pretty sure that the amount of money illegals are sending home is miniscule when you look at the rest of the picture."

Ten billion isn't really miniscule to me.
http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html

Quote :

"Absolutely. Well, your use of "is" implies that I said that it's too late, or something to that effect, which I didn't. But yes, I think that Bush's open-door policy could turn out badly. I was going to go into how I forsee a rise in Nationalism and an eventual backlash, but I'm pretty tired and I'm about to get off of work. We've already seen some of that in the Minutemen. Seems pretty common sense to me, but sometimes it gets hard to hear myself think what with all the libruls running around screaming "racism.""

I don't disagree with you. But it isn't the immigrants causing the problem, it's the libs and spineless republicans that force us to accomadate them. Of course we could take the opposite stance to the extreme and have something like what happened in France earlier this year. There should be a happy medium, not an automatic bias towards immigrants, but to blame it on them is wrong. It's like blaming bleeding to death on losing blood, not because you slit your wrist.

1/6/2006 6:03:33 PM

Quote :

"Fallacy? What is the difference between GM buying spark plugs from Mexico and the guy who works at GM sending money home to his family in Mexico?"

Quote :

"The difference is if that illegal were an American worker, that money stays in the US."

Look, man. Approach the question slowly. Reread it several times just in case. Take a moment, or possibly several hours to come up with a fitting response, one that actually addresses the goddamn question, you fucking moron.

1/6/2006 10:04:52 PM

all I know is that dirty immigrants are somehow related to the meth problem or something something.

1/6/2006 10:09:53 PM