my girlfriend and i are moving in together next week. before that happens, her father wants to have a talk with us. i asked my gf what all he wants to talk about. the only thing she mentioned was the fact that i have guns, and keep a handgun close by.

her father wants to print up some statistics that CLAIM TO SHOW that people are more likely to kill themselves or a family member by mistake than ward off a criminal.
they think im going to just "get rid of them"

i know these facts are usually skewed. they never take into consideration how many of those deaths are sucides, caused by reckless storage around children, alcohol factors, etc.

anyone got some real statistics on guns and self-defense in the home?

2/12/2006 12:56:21 PM

FACT: A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.


but that was on the illinois council against handgun violence website



[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 1:02 PM. Reason : just tell him to quit being a fucking pussy]

2/12/2006 1:01:00 PM

THE SECOND AMEMEMEMNET IS EEEEEEVIIIIL!!!

2/12/2006 1:13:36 PM

yeah, its very useful to know who is publishing the "facts"

2/12/2006 1:13:52 PM

that's going to be really hard to find, I imagine, since you're asking for statistics about something that didn't happen.

-without a gun, you obviously can't kill your family with a gun
-most of the time, intruders just want the loot
-you say to "to ward off a criminal." how many people would report to the police that somebody tried to break in were scared away by the gun in your hands? Chances are not as many as other scenerios

you do have a point, though, that often times the danger of guns in a home is skewed

2/12/2006 1:15:07 PM

2/12/2006 1:50:39 PM

Of course it increases the risk of suicides/homicides. It's the right tool for the job. If you have a coax crimping tool in your toolbox at home you're probably more likely to steal cable too. That doesn't mean you're necessarily going to do any of the above, and in fact the vast majority of people don't.

They just have to trust you not to be a complete dumbass, and you have to trust your girl not to blow your genitals off one day when you're having an argument. If that's not possible, you probably need to stay away from these folks anyway.

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 2:04 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2006 2:02:42 PM

Unless you're moving in to her parents' house I wouldn't put up with her father's crap.

2/12/2006 2:12:51 PM

http://www.gunfacts.info/index.html

2/12/2006 2:13:45 PM

Quote :

"Unless you're moving in to her parents' house I wouldn't put up with her father's crap."

2/12/2006 2:21:50 PM

Yeah his argument is one of the most ridiculous and obvious ones anyone can make. Without trying to sound disrespectful, maybe you could compare the fact that the odds of getting in a car accident increase greatly for people who own a motor vehicle. That might not sound like the same thing, but the underlying principles are the same. Explain to him that, like a car, a gun can be very dangerous, but with the right training and safety precautions, it is an invaluable tool for surviving in today's society.

In addition, you may want to consider taking a handgun safety course with her. I'm fairly sure that the majority of accidents occur with people just doing stupid stuff, so a course like this could alleviate some of his concerns.

2/12/2006 2:30:44 PM

I would start here

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/


In a landmark survey, criminologist Gary Kleck found that handguns are used in about 2/3 of 2.5 million annual defensive firearm uses. (Kates and Kleck, p. 180.) Analyzing Nat'l Crime Victimization Surveys, Kleck found that people who use firearms to defend themselves are less likely to be attacked or injured than people who use other or no protective methods. Protection method and percents of individuals injured included: gun, 17.4%; knife, 40.3%; other weapon, 22.0%; physical force, 50.8%; tried to get help, frighten offender, 48.9%; threatened/reasoned with offender, 30.7%; nonviolent resistance, including evasion, 34.9%; other, 26.5%; any self-protection, 38.2%; no self-protection, 24.7%. Kleck also found that "at most, 1% of defensive gun uses resulted in the offender taking a gun away from the victim," including instances in which burglars stealing guns from homes are confronted by homeowners armed with other guns. (Kleck, pp. 168, 171.)

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 2:38 PM. Reason : in the handgun section]

2/12/2006 2:36:17 PM

quote Freud:
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

2/12/2006 2:52:32 PM

Quote :

"Yeah his argument is one of the most ridiculous and obvious ones anyone can make. Without trying to sound disrespectful, maybe you could compare the fact that the odds of getting in a car accident increase greatly for people who own a motor vehicle. That might not sound like the same thing, but the underlying principles are the same. Explain to him that, like a car, a gun can be very dangerous, but with the right training and safety precautions, it is an invaluable tool for surviving in today's society."

not really the same at all

you have to compare its danger with its potential use ie cars get you to work every day

in the gun case you are comparing its danger to its potential use which is self defense, and the stats favor the danger to yourself and family aspect

Quote :

"it is an invaluable tool for surviving in today's society.""

this just in, we don't live in the wild west

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 3:14 PM. Reason : k]

2/12/2006 3:12:11 PM

Quote :

"it is an invaluable tool for surviving in today's society"

because you dont know someone who HASNT needed a gun to save their life?

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 3:19 PM. Reason : -]

2/12/2006 3:18:39 PM

If there are no small children around then tell him to mind his own business. If there are buy some trigger locks. Its not that complicated.

2/12/2006 3:45:16 PM

dump her for you gun

2/12/2006 3:46:28 PM

Ask her father if he'll put one of these signs in his yard:

http://www.danzfamily.com/videos/videos06/yardsign.asf

2/12/2006 3:46:49 PM

get the gun and shoot him

irony

2/12/2006 3:59:07 PM

Be prepared to question all statistics. (Conducted by who for who? What ages are "children"? Do firearm deaths include criminals, gang members, and suicides?) Ask how many households in the US have guns, and what percent have tragic accidents. Dismiss vivid examples as anecdotal evidence. Point out there would be less wrecks if people didn't have cars, and the important thing is to be competent.

2/12/2006 4:06:22 PM

Quote :

"not really the same at all you have to compare its danger with its potential use ie cars get you to work every day in the gun case you are comparing its danger to its potential use which is self defense, and the stats favor the danger to yourself and family aspect"

That's not the same, either. A car is going to be used everyday. A gun is going to be used in defense once in a blue moon. Her father is trying to show that simply having a gun is dangerous.

Where are your stats?

Quote :

"because you dont know someone who HASNT needed a gun to save their life?"

He said that it is invaluable, not essential. Unless he actually equates having a gun with survival, which is stupid. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn't mean that literally.

As for convincing her father otherwise, I don't think you'll be able to. Most of the time, opinions like these are formed from a closed mind without much consideration to the other point. "Real" statistics don't exist, they are all pretty ambiguous and the data is skewed by whoever uses it. But if you want to try, be sure to get all of his sources and I'll help you look it up. I love reading about this stuff.

2/12/2006 4:28:28 PM

A gun is a tool, if used properly it can be a great asset. Just as with any tool if misused it can be dangerous, someone could just as easily hit a person in the head with a hammer as they could hit a nail. It’s all in how u use it. One of the best ways I’ve heard it put is a scalpel can save u or kill u, u don’t make a scalpel safe by dulling it u put it in the hands of some one with the knowledge of how to correctly and responsibly use it. Me personally I’m nearly always armed, I’ve had access to guns since I was very young and I was taught before that how to properly handle them and when was the appropriate situation in which to use it. I just recently took the concealed carry class and the stats that they talk about on people who save their own lives is unbelievable.

2/12/2006 4:28:53 PM

^^^^^anybody see that video on CNN a few years back?

2/12/2006 4:35:37 PM

*you

2/12/2006 4:35:46 PM

Quote :

"Me personally I’m nearly always armed"

are you being hunted by someone?

do you live in east harlem?

people who think guns are essential or invaluable (to normal citizens) are mentally disturbed.

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 4:37 PM. Reason : -]

2/12/2006 4:37:07 PM

Take him shooting. Seriously.

2/12/2006 4:37:19 PM

Shivan, heh, that's the one true thing I learned from picking up my second major ... question everything before accepting it as fact. I don't trust most news stories now as a result without seeing the original study/source and scrutinizing that first.

Quote :

"The media in general A two-year study by the Media Research Center concluded that television reporters are overwhelmingly opposed to Second Amendment rights. For broadcasts from major networks from July 1, 1995 to June 30, 1997, covering 244 gun policy stories: • The ratio of anti-gun to pro-gun bias was 16:1. • Anti-gun spokespeople (Sarah Brady, etc) were given three times the number of sound bites than pro-gun spokespeople (NRA, etc)."

Of course, this was a very narrow coverage during a presidency who opposed guns. I'd have to see something more recent to validate this claim...


That .info sight has an 87 page document with several hundred sources on it. Start there and have fun with it.

Quote :

"Myth: If it saves the life of one child, it is worth it Fact: Firearms in private hands are used 2.5 million times each year to prevent crime, or 6,849 times every day 114, including rapes, aggravated assaults, and kidnapping. The number of innocent children protected by firearm owning parents far outweighs the number hurt by guns. Fact: Most Americans (if they are firearm owners or not) believe that it is the way parents raise their kids that cause gun violence. Among non-firearm owners, 38% said it was parental neglect that causes youth violence, while only 28% thought it was due to the availability of guns.115 They may be right as most homicides of kids under age five are by their own parents. Mothers killed 31% and another 31% were killed by fathers. FBI, Supplementary Homicide Reports, 1976-98"

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 4:40 PM. Reason : .]

2/12/2006 4:37:27 PM

Yes, I did mean invaluable.

I am in the Navy and will be going out to sea for 3 months at a time. I also live out in a "countryish" area in Washington. It's a really nice neighborhood, but really nice neighborhoods out in rural areas can often attract crime. My wife and I have talked about getting a gun for when I am gone, and I think it's a good idea. However, I will not get one without us both taking a safety course.

I would also never get a gun unless I knew my wife was willing to use it. I have no idea about laws concerning shooting intruders, but I know if and when I did get a gun, if an intruder broke into my house, I would shoot to kill and I would do it without warning. I would have to know she would act the same way, because the last thing I need is hesitation that would lead to the weapon being used against her.

2/12/2006 4:47:03 PM

Quote :

"people who think guns are essential or invaluable (to normal citizens) are mentally disturbed."

Why? You seem to think that they are anticipating having to use it.

2/12/2006 4:52:43 PM

Quote :

"if an intruder broke into my house, I would shoot to kill and I would do it without warning."

I hope you get the chance to do this. I hope its a drug addict trying to steal something from you, or a homeless person looking for food. I hope you then spend eternity in hell, becuase thats where murders go.

Quote :

"Why? You seem to think that they are anticipating having to use it. "

see above.

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 4:54 PM. Reason : -]

2/12/2006 4:53:54 PM

^
This is NOT a Soap Box thread. Either post some websites, discuss some of links/facts, or STFU. People like you make good threads like this go off topic.

2/12/2006 5:01:22 PM

Ive soon no facts posted yet, just spin.

A little sad that youve expressed the desire to murder innocent people arent we?

The idea of shooting all intruders without warning is insane. You are insane.

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 5:05 PM. Reason : -]

2/12/2006 5:04:31 PM

Quote :

"I hope you get the chance to do this. I hope its a drug addict trying to steal something from you, or a homeless person looking for food. I hope you then spend eternity in hell, becuase thats where murders go."

I find it funny how you are trying to label people as mentally disturbed when you say something like this.

I know people such as yourself live in this little sheltered little world where everything works out perfectly. But the fact is, things happen in a split second. When an intruder breaks in, it takes less than a second between you asking the intruder what his intentions are and him pouncing on you and disarming you. Simply by the fact that he has broken into your house, this act of aggression is definitely enough to justify counterforce.

I would think if a desperate drug dealer broke into your house and raped your mother, your ideas on this subject might change. But I, unlike you, do not hope this happens to you. I would hope that no break-ins or attacks ever occur, but that would be a very foolish and misguided idealistic hope. So you keep hoping that nothing bad ever happens to you, and I'll be proactive and defend myself against anyone who breaks into my house.

2/12/2006 5:05:06 PM

Quote :

"Simply by the fact that he has broken into your house, this act of aggression is definitely enough to justify counterforce."

No shit. He said murder, "shoot to kill".

Quote :

"I would think if a desperate drug dealer broke into your house and raped your mother, your ideas on this subject might change."

Because I could have shot the person that raped my mom from 2,000 miles away?


Pussies need guns.

Quote :

"I know people such as yourself live in this little sheltered little world where everything works out perfectly."

Its a good thing we've got street hardened bad-asses like yourself sleeping with handguns under their pillows and one eye open.

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 5:11 PM. Reason : -]

2/12/2006 5:09:10 PM

Oh you wanted a link?

Heres one from today.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060212/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney_hunting_accident
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4707354.stm
http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=247902&cat=World

Quote :

"Cheney Accidentally Shoots Fellow Hunter"

2/12/2006 5:14:25 PM

i've never understood why people can't have civil disagreements online. you're obviously not trying to convince someone of a fallacy in their logic when you say things like "Pussies need guns." or "You are insane." you're just intellectually wacking yourself off with your masterful logic. people don't have real control over their thoughts and opinions but if you do want to change someone's mind or even get them to take you seriously confrontation is not the way (especially over the internet).

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 5:19 PM. Reason : omgwtfbbqhypocrisy!]

2/12/2006 5:18:53 PM

Im not trying to change minds. Shooting all intruders without warning is criminaly insane. Its not a disagreement, its a fact.



[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 5:23 PM. Reason : -]

2/12/2006 5:20:46 PM

killing people sends you to hell

Jesus told me so.

2/12/2006 5:32:30 PM

here are my opinions:

i think some people are way too like "omg the government is gonna take my guns i want my guns omg give me my guns"

i also think too many people are like "guns are bad less people should have them"

i think there are not enough of the "i'm a logical thinking motherfucker who isnt retarded when it comes to shit like owning guns"

i also think that if you want a gun you should be able to have a gun, certain restrictions aside of course(for like criminals and shit)

2/12/2006 5:36:33 PM

A gun is not a weapon, it's a tool. Like a butcher knife, or a harpoon, or... or an alligator.

2/12/2006 5:40:08 PM

A TOOL FOR KILLINNGGGGGGGGGGGG PEOPLE

WHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

2/12/2006 5:47:26 PM

Quote :

"I hope its a drug addict trying to steal something from you, or a homeless person looking for food."

Quote :

"A little sad that youve expressed the desire to murder innocent people arent we? "

how in the jew fucking hell is someone breaking into your home, for whatever reason, innocent?

Quote :

" Quote : "Cheney Accidentally Shoots Fellow Hunter" "

what in the fuck does this have to do with anything? it was a hunting accident....nowhere close to being the same as a home protection related issue.

stop with your liberal bullshit, seriously

Quote :

"Shooting all intruders without warning is criminaly insane. Its not a disagreement, its a fact."

oh, its a fact huh? references? define criminally insane also please and then try to apply it to the current scenario

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 6:02 PM. Reason : damn liberal faggot]

2/12/2006 6:00:36 PM

Quote :

"The idea of shooting all intruders without warning is insane."

Quote :

". Shooting all intruders without warning is criminaly insane. Its not a disagreement, its a fact"

Dude, you're talking out of your ass. It's fine for you to have whatever opinion you want, but the fact is, if you shoot an intruder dead, you will not be charged with a crime. In the unlikely circumstance that you are charged, you will not be found guilty.

Just a few weeks ago there was some old guy that shot a drunken intruder dead. The intruder simply thought he was breaking into his own house. Even when the intruder clearly meant no harm, you can shoot him dead. The old guy was not charged with a crime, because he didn't commit one.

Quote :

"A little sad that youve expressed the desire to murder innocent people arent we?"

An intruder isn't innocent. Breaking and entering is a crime. Sorry if you didn't know that.

Quote :

"Because I could have shot the person that raped my mom from 2,000 miles away?"

No, because she could have shot the attempted rapist. Duh. Do you realize how little sense you're making?

Hey Josh8315, why don't you put one of these signs in your yard?
http://www.danzfamily.com/videos/videos06/yardsign.asf

2/12/2006 6:04:22 PM

Quote :

" it is an invaluable tool for surviving in today's society. "

Hahahaha... for *99% of people, it's a toy, not a tool. For cops, it's a tool, for the very small percentage of the population that hunts for their food, it's a tool, for Joe Schmoe in suburbia, it's a toy. If Joe buys this toy, thinking it's a tool, he's going to end up misusing it.

Guns are cool, and people should be allowed to have them if they want, but it's idiotic to pretend that a gun will save you, or that it's some great "tool" that would make the world better, if everyone had one. The world would undoubtedly be much better off if people didn't have guns, but that would be fascist. Just don't be an idiot about your guns. I bet there are gun nuts out there hoping that someone will try to break in to their home, so that they can shoot them (that's the impression I get from some people in this thread). THAT is nutty.



(*figure spontaneously made up for dramatic effect)

2/12/2006 6:15:17 PM

Quote :

"An intruder isn't innocent. Breaking and entering is a crime. Sorry if you didn't know that."

you cant shoot people for commiting a crime

2/12/2006 6:16:28 PM

And yet this guy, and many others, have. Are you too stupid to believe something that actually happened? He was not charged with a crime. What part of that don't you understand?

Too clarify, yes, you can't shoot someone simply because they're committing a crime, but if they pose a reasonable threat to life or bodily injury, then yes. You can shoot them dead.

You know what Florida just started doing, don't you?


[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 6:21 PM. Reason : ]

2/12/2006 6:18:55 PM

yes im too stupid to believe everyone is allowed to shoot anyone who commits a crime

2/12/2006 6:21:08 PM

Last month, my dad's friend's wife was shopping alone at night. She had the last car in the parking lot. Two guys were standing at her car. She pulled out a gun. They left.

2/12/2006 6:23:14 PM

I saw someone speeding yesterday. Going about 63 mph in a 60 mph zone. I fucking blew their brains out. That will show them.

2/12/2006 6:26:08 PM

^ that kind of nonesense shows you really are FeebleMinded

the thread was originally about home self-defense and statistics about it

2/12/2006 6:50:48 PM