So I failed out of State a while back and I just don't know where to go from here. I didn't know where I was going when I was in school, either, but at least I was preparing myself for the destination or something. Now I'm living low and don't really have anything in my life that brings me joy. I'm not sure if I want to go back to school or not, do I really want to put myself any more in debt when I'm not sure anything has changed?

I find it difficult to learn in the academic setting, which seems to be obsessed with performance metrics to the point of losing focus of the actual goal: learning. It's hard for me to learn material "because I'll be tested on it." I'd rather learn something that has a tangible result I can appreciate, e.g. I want to do X, so I need to learn about how X is made, what factors affect the performance, usuability, and reliability of X, how to optimize my attempt at X. I love learning and I'm very good at it, and I hate that I have so much trouble with the traditional system... because, ultimately, at the top of that system is one place I'd like to be. Research is very fufilling and I find that aspect of academia very appealing. I just don't think I'll be able to make it through all the bullshit to get to that point.

All I really want to do is play with computers, I've been doing it since I was 9, it was my first love and through the years remains my strongest. You'd think in the informaton age it'd be easy to find happiness if that's all it took... but I don't know anybody on the inside anywhere, so it's not too likely that I'll be able to sneak in the back to success like that. I've really got a vast understanding of computing and computing environments, but I don't know how to market it. I don't see to phrase "your requirements are irrelevant, I can self-educate all necessary skills in a matter of days, I have taught myself practically everything I know and I'd love the opportunity to get paid to learn your problems and solve them too" without coming off as a bit of a lunatic.

I'm wasting my life here, in what seems like a depressingly short period of time I'll be old and slow, and what came to me easily as I was younger will not come so easily... I just don't know what to do.
What do you think, Study Hall gurus? Give me some ideas, where should I go from here? How can I find happiness?

3/20/2006 3:40:38 AM

I've found in both of my degrees, there was a significant gap between what was learned in the classroom and what actually used/applied in the workforce. That is often why a LOT of people engage in internships, coops, research experiences, etc. The experience often fills in a lot of those gaps and helps realize why the classroom experience is a necessary evil (albeit maybe only 50% useful).

I also tend to be a very "hands-on" type of person. If I don't see an applied use for what I am learning ... I tend not to find it interesting and therefore more difficult to learn. Most of my textbook/theory-based courses I made difficult C's/B's in, instructor dependent. Most of my applied courses I made easy B's/A's in, instructor dependent. I often had to bite the bullet when taking a couple of courses I knew had no applicability for me after I took them.

If you can square away getting readmitted, then do so. Take a lighter course load (12/hrs semester), engage in some work experience environments, etc. Nobody cares how long it takes you to graduate ... only what you have to offer once you get out. If you want some inside connections, you should get involved in student organizations who regularly work with companies in industry. For computers, (shameless plug), look into ACM/AITP, who host numerous technical talks from companies throughout the academic year. I know I wasn't nearly qualified to interview with Google, but I had an inside connection and had worked with them quite a bit that year.

Also, a four-year degree will do absolute wonders. The degree you get doesn't necessarily mean it will have anything to do with the job you get hired for. I'm currently the primary IT guy where I work ... very little of which has anything to do with Computer Science or Statistics. However, the four-year degree means they can pull me as a programmer, as an analyst, as a (fill-in-the-blank) as needed, knowing I have the educational background required to do such tasks. The experience will come with time. Over the long run, if you want an advanced degree or want to get promoted, you'll need the four-year degree. You mention you have self-educated experience already ... let that come out during the job, not during the interview. You'll be promoted quicker as a result.

If you do want to pursue the research/academic track, you'll need to look into the actual process that surrounds research. The idea is appealing, but it often has its own layers of BS you need to peel through to get to it's core essence. Looking down the academic track as a career, take a poll of what % of time PI's spend actually doing the research vs. what % they are doing administrative tasks. If you want to do research in industry, it will be more focused on what the company wants for results, not necessarily what you want to research.

Bleh, enough typing ... talk to wolfeee some more about your situation. (Oh, and I've been messing with computers since I was 12 ... I understand )

[Edited on March 20, 2006 at 5:39 AM. Reason : .]

3/20/2006 5:22:54 AM

try community college

3/20/2006 7:25:57 AM

Jesus!

3/20/2006 7:39:30 AM

Yeah, right now I'm "officially" trying to raise the funds to make another attempt, I have a lot of documentation with counseling regarding my depression so if I could find some way to raise the funds I could possibly get readmitted, I may have to take some summer classes and demonstrate improvement before they'll withdraw the affected semesters (that's the general impression I got, that it'd be difficult to do anything about those semesters until I've demonstrated that I've overcome the problems) and allow me to take a full time course load... it's just, well, kind of depressing that it's going to take me a year or more of working to raise that money... particularly considering that, in the last 8 months of working I've actually found myself further in debt. You may be asking yourself, "well, where are the parents?" and I've been asking myself and them the same question. Sometimes that really bugs me, honestly... they had no problem letting me put myself in 25,000$ of debt they had no intention of helping me out of, but I'll be damned if they're making my brother do that, can't help me because they're paying for his fucking apartment and what his financial aid doesn't cover...fuck them

Divorced parents, my mom refuses to support me because my dad "refuses to support my brother," even though all my mom does is harass my dad for money to pay for my brother's education... She made damn sure my creditors knew where to find me when the bills started showing up at her place, though... couldn't claim me as a dependant anymore so she promptly ceased to care. Cunt bitch.

3/20/2006 9:58:15 AM

OK pizza boy, if you're a hot shit programmer then it's time for you to create something useful. There are ton of ideas for applications that people would like, and might even pay for. Even you were to write something free that got a little attention, it would at least be enough to get your foot in the door for a decent job.

Recently we were discussing in another thread how I would like a program that parses online brokerage confirmations so they could be posted to a stock discussion website. Honestly, I would pay you $250 to write a script that could reliable parse Ameritrade/Etrade trades into XML when given a username/password.

Just today I saw this list of possibilities for the Amazon S3 service, whatever the fuck that is.
http://jkeyes.com/2006/03/ten_ideas_for_amazon_s3_applic.php

3/20/2006 10:17:58 AM

Quote :

"I find it difficult to learn in the academic setting, which seems to be obsessed with performance metrics to the point of losing focus of the actual goal: learning. It's hard for me to learn material "because I'll be tested on it.""

I had an english class with Dr. Kellner on great western lit. It was my favorite class at ncsu because it had no tests. It was more work than an average class because it was 1 paper a week. But there were no tests, no quizzes, and no final exam, only assigned work that you either did it and you didn't. Granted papers don't seem much more real world like than tests do, but it is as far as english classes go.

Good luck on getting things together. I know what its like to have 'rents not helping out on college bills. Divorced parents sending twins to college on the salaries of a school teacher and a half blind mechanic meant they weren't able to help for long. I worked and took out loans on the assumption that I could get into grad school and get a job that could pay off the loans. Well I didn't get into grad school and am going to end up with a secretarial type job for a while I think. Once I've saved up some money I might try again, because I really prefer being more educated to being less educated. But school is starting to seem less and less fun, and instead more like a bureaucracy that tells me if I keep taking out loans and giving them that money, that it will eventually help me out, even though so far it hasn't that much and I’m wondering if there is a point where I should cut my loses, stop taking out loans, and get a mediocre job to start dealing with the debt.

Now this could all change because I have one gradschool that’s taking forever to get back, and after working for a while, paying down some student loan debt, and saving up a couple hundred in application fees again I may be able to give grad school another try and have things work out after taking an occasional class in my spare time to boost my resume.

3/20/2006 10:19:45 AM

If you have a lot of ability, you don't need to finish college to make money or be successful.

That's why I made sure I finished college, and grad school.

3/20/2006 10:22:44 AM

If you don't go back to school then you could get a job and work your way up. I know several adults who have done it.

But you'll have to get a job that's somehow computer related. Try the NCSU job site. Most of the people posting there are not looking for someone with a degree. Even though you're not a student, you have a fair chance of getting hired, especially if you have good references.

http://www7.acs.ncsu.edu/student_jobs/selectjobs.html

3/20/2006 10:31:31 AM

hmmm I would think academia would put the most weight on academics

3/20/2006 11:01:39 AM

You may be better suited to a community college environment. While I have never taken classes there, I've been told many times that those students tend to get more practical knowledge. Try getting a part or full time job related to something you are interested in doing for a living, and look into taking courses on line or traditional from Wake Tech. If you decide to reapply to State later, you will have more successful courses under your belt, if you fail again, you won't have wasted as much money, and if the experience causes you to rethink your direction completely, you've lost nothing.

3/20/2006 11:32:21 AM

Quote :

"If you don't go back to school then you could get a job and work your way up. I know several adults who have done it. "

I also know several people who have worked there way up in companies. But there are normally two problems with that. One is that it generally takes you longer to move up because a lot of places consider you the inferior candidate since you don't have a degree. Second, it is generally hard to get an equivalent job elsewhere if you need to for some reason.

I know a guy who has no degree, but is considered an engineer within the company and has the pay of an engineer. He recently became unhappy with the job but can't get one anywhere else. They basically throw out his resume since he doesn't have a degree and he never even gets considered.

3/20/2006 2:00:23 PM

I definitely recommend community college as a great alternative! I know a few computer infor tech people that only have assoc. degrees and lots of certifications in programming and make a good living. If you can get an assoc. degree and get certified in a plethora of computer skills then you will be set.

Also, if you have not taken too many hours (i.e. less than 30, less than 15 preferably) then you could probably get by with paying out right for around 15-18 credit hours, make really good grades in those, and get your GPA back up to an acceptable level to get financial aid and other support again.

3/20/2006 2:01:07 PM

unfortunately I have have a lot of credit hours... I was only a few credits shy of being a sophomore my first semester on account of AP credits, I did fine my first semester, not so great my second semester (I let one particularly challenging class get me down), pretty bad my third semester (that class should have been my sign to change majors)... at which point I decided to switch to CSC, but lost it shortly into the semester when I did poorly on one of my tests (that was later weighted ) and got failed just past the drop date in class with a really retarded attendance policy (late = absent and living in Wolf Village it was pretty hard to get to Carmicheal on time without leaving half an hour early since the bus does a friggin' campus loop before getting to Carmichael).

wolftrap- as it happens, I'm working on several projects that might gain considerable attention when they're completed, but that sort of thing doesn't put food on the table until it's complete (if ever) and it's hard to find time to complete them working full time... as far as your script, PM me and elaborate on your specification and I'd be happy to work with you.

3/20/2006 5:07:25 PM

community college- especially strong ones like Wake Tech, Central Piedmont, Durham Tech, are great options. Also, we have a computer training unit with various certifications on campus. It does not award academic credit, but people learn with lots of applied applications, get jobs and move on.

We are glad to talk to you. This is going to be a bad week, but we could set up a time for next week.

3/20/2006 6:50:13 PM

Would joining a branch of the military be an option? That could definitely earn you some money towards your debt, and after serving you could go back to school using their money.

3/20/2006 8:09:16 PM

Not really, I'm morally opposed to American imperialism and also dying isn't very high on my list of things to do.

3/20/2006 10:15:30 PM

Quote :

"I find it difficult to learn in the academic setting"

Quote :

"I was only a few credits shy of being a sophomore my first semester on account of AP credits"

doesnt seem like you had any problem in the academic setting with all the AP credits.

Quote :

"living in Wolf Village it was pretty hard to get to Carmicheal on time without leaving half an hour early since the bus does a friggin' campus loop before getting to Carmichael"

its only a 15-20 minute walk from Wolf Village to Carmichael, and don't pretend like you had so many pressing appointments that you couldnt make it to class.

sounds to me like you just got lazy and now you want someone to fix it. You have to recognize that it will take quite a bit of work and time to "find happiness" in the way you want.

3/21/2006 12:09:20 PM

My AP credits were mostly from independant study, cocksucker.

4/3/2006 1:17:20 AM

community college, negro. you fuck up, you have to go down a level. If you are failing frosh and soph classes, your future in academia is highly dubious.

4/3/2006 1:35:38 AM

you could apply to AppState or UNCC if NCSU isnt your cup of tea


my friend from App found a job as a CSC grad
while the college itself is more party oriented

and my friend from UNCC graduated as CPE
and could work for cisco but opted to go back into UNCCs business department

4/3/2006 2:01:03 AM

i was in a similar situation about 10 years ago. i'm currently attending ncsu part time while working full time. it is not easy, but it is working for me so much better. part of this is that i am now ready for school and know what i need out of it. one of the things i badly want is that piece of paper because in the meantime i have not been able to get many jobs because of the lack. i am lucky that i took the time to get my AA from a community college because even that was able to open many doors for me. here are my small bits of wisdom.

-you can go back, but it may be harder to work around your life. after years of experience in the work force, there is a good chance you will need to take a cut in pay to find a job which will allow the flex to attend college.
-if you want it, the bull **** associated with classes becomes just that much easy **** to get out of the way and get your paper. i work full time and have a family. i've also got a lot of work experience and busy work does not faze me.
-you can work your way up the career ladder fairly far without a degree, and for a while it may even look like you're doing better as your peers in college are standing still, but there is a hard wall at a certain level if you don't have a degree. IT moves pretty fast and you will likely want to be doing different things in 5, 10 years from now. that piece of paper tells employers that you have broad experience doing all kinds of things, even bull **** and they will give you a chance.

so take some time, explore community college and the lifetime learning program here at state. maybe even take some time to make sure NCSU is the right college for you. this is not the college i started at, but it is absolutely the best for me. the bottom line is to not give up.

4/3/2006 3:09:27 AM

Quote :

"I find it difficult to learn in the academic setting, which seems to be obsessed with performance metrics to the point of losing focus of the actual goal: learning."

This is my biggest complaint with college so far (and I've been here 5 years already ).

My GPA sucks, and I've had to retake classes that I had "learned" because I didn't pass the tests.

Probably the best way to describe the situation is something my friend told me once (he's now in grad school here): "I never let my classes get in the way of my education."

If you can make it through the BS and get your degree you'll be better off in the long run actually learning the material than you are with a 4.0 but no understanding. All graduates have a nice piece of paper saying they graduated, but not all graduates share the same education.



And for those who say that if you can't pass the test you can't have learned the subject, I strongly disagree. I was helping fellow students by explaining theories and principles when they didn't understand the subject yet they were passing tests and I wasn't. Maybe I'm just a bad test taker... who knows.

4/3/2006 7:24:58 AM

most people i know who fail classes do so because of a lack of effort/work, not because they don't understand the material...if you understand everything, go to class, study, read, etc i dont see how you can fail a class.

4/3/2006 7:48:56 AM

Some of the classes yes, it was a lack of effort/work. Others however I'd go to class, study, work with study groups, etc. We'd all take the test, they'd make B's and I'd pull a D for some reason. Honestly I don't know why but I'd just perform poorly on the tests even though I could do homeworks and everything else. Oh well... I've resigned myself to a low GPA and all it's consequences so that part doesn't bother me anymore.

4/3/2006 7:57:13 AM

I would seriously listen to what Gardenwaltz has to say. Good advice.

4/3/2006 9:47:04 AM

The only problem with certifications is that they are expensive. Incog, is all of your debt student loans? I think you should come back to State if at all possible, since you already have those credits, is that your plan?
The first thing that struck me was this: aren't you the type of person who wouldn't really want to 'get his foot in the door', what I mean is I'd be surprised if you'd be happy working for a company. I mean, compared to college the corporate world is pure fascism. That said, is starting a business feasible? Something with tiny startup costs seems like it would be possible in your field, I totally with wolftrap that there're bookoos of projects out there, and it sounds like you have several of your own. While on that subject, if you're interested in another of the projects you mentioned, ones which could potentially get a lot of attention, I have one that's half done and is in Python (the problem is that I don't have that deep affinity for programming logic you have, and that I've never programmed in Python).
And it seems to me that there is a lot of red tape that takes up researchers' time. I imagine it's like becoming a cop thinking you'll just shoot bad guys all day, when really after every moving violation you have a stack of color coded forms to do. So you could do your own research. What is it about a 9 to 5 or a research position in academia that would empower you?

4/5/2006 5:32:20 PM

Quote :

"I've found in both of my degrees, there was a significant gap between what was learned in the classroom and what actually used/applied in the workforce. That is often why a LOT of people engage in internships, coops, research experiences, etc. The experience often fills in a lot of those gaps and helps realize why the classroom experience is a necessary evil (albeit maybe only 50% useful)."

i agree with what perlith said - what i learned in school (csc@ncsu) and what i do now aren't even that closely related (both deal with computers i guess) - the only thing i really use from ncsu are the basics from taking/teaching e115 and i didn't learn those skills in that class

the biggest/most important thing i learned at ncsu was how to effectively learn on my own - i attribute this to the wonderful professors in csc and their unique teaching style (read: csc professors care more about research than teaching in general)

4/5/2006 5:47:14 PM

Dont mean to sound like an ass....

Apply to financial aid, describe your situation 9/10 they will pay for your college even if it means you paying it back since they will make sure that you will get a job afterwards to pay it off.

Then go to University like everyone else and suffer your way through like everyone else b/c thats the way it is

OR

Stop Whining and get your ass to do something productive, unless your drunk or on drugs, you can do alot, MOVE! go to companies go meet some people, sitting around doing nothing wont help...No one will help you if you dont do shit...(not saying ou arent but thats how most people think...eveything wil come to them with no effort)

Finally my freind....you are in America...the land of opportunity..its amazing how you can make money and meet people and all...unlike some of us who are from overseas and have no luck in finding jobs and opportunities in our homwlands where people follow the old ass traditional layer systems.....here you have an opportunity...even as low as opening a hot dog stand you could make money expand and be rich....its all in your mind....and reading, which from the sounds of your situation, you havent been doing much...

So just read online, books, talk to people, move your ass away from the computer and stop whining, you have so many choices like everyone discussed here.

Good luck.

and last word of advice: no one will help you and feel sorry for you. you have to make the move and prove yourself that you are worth what you know you are worth. Dont let anyone...such as your parents in your case, be an obstacle but rather a learning experience that no one will help you, you have to help yourself and prove to the world that you are who you are.

With that said, I gotta go take a shower and sleep to get ready for my 3 tests tomm.

later

4/5/2006 11:26:02 PM

I'll be happy to offer some advice, for whatever you think it's worth.

You're drifting right now, because you have no idea where you're going. So how do you know when you get there? Before you waste any more money on classes that you'll fail because you have no motivation to do well, you need to figure something out.

What is your dream?

If your dream is to just have a roof over your head, something to wear, and not too many other worries, then no education or training is required--in fact, it would be a waste of your resources and time. All you need is a decent job. Any job. Change oil at Jiffylube. Work as a stockroom laborer, or on a factory assembly line. Work on cars. Slice meat at a grocery store. Do sheet-metal work with a stock car team (you'd have to move to Charlotte, probably.) Drive a truck.

I'm serious about this. There's no shame in honest work. When you go home, you don't have to take your job home with you. Live modestly, don't spend a ton on crazy stuff (including lottery tickets), and you'll be fine. Many people live very happy lives doing just that. Maybe that's what you want.

Or perhaps you have a more ambitious dream. In 20 years, where do you want to be, and what do you want to be doing? How much do you want to be making? YOU HAVE TO FIGURE THAT OUT.

When you figure that out, you can now plan out the exact steps that you need to do, in order, to get where you want to be. Now you will have motivation to do them--because you have a clear goal in mind. Perhaps one of the steps to accomplishing your goal will be to finish college. Perhaps it won't. Maybe some type of training other than college is what you should do. Maybe no more training is needed...you just need to get out there and start DOING it. Could be difficult--could be scary--but if you want it badly enough, you will find a way.

Don't just blindly start trying stuff hoping you might stumble on a revelation. Figure out what your dream is before you do anything else. YOU have to figure it out.

There's my best advice. Take it, ignore it, it's entirely up to you.

4/6/2006 8:32:34 AM

^Thank you for being out here. Thank you for what you said. Listen up y'all.

4/6/2006 8:53:28 AM

wolfeee, I sent you a private message about a different issue. Can you help me out?

4/6/2006 10:02:44 AM

Quote :

". Sometimes that really bugs me, honestly... they had no problem letting me put myself in 25,000$ of debt"

Is there anyway you could file for bankruptcy...bankruptcy is really not that bad, i mean you really just cant buy a house for 7 years but at the same time renting is not bad...im not sure if you could but you may want to look into that as an option

4/6/2006 10:35:50 AM

in the last year or so didn't bush sign legislation pushed through to make it more difficult to file bankruptcy and also something to raise student loan interest. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember there being a brief rush to consolidate a while a back in lieu of this added burden.

4/6/2006 12:58:11 PM

^^Yeah, take the easy way out and force everyone else to pay more to cover you irresponsibility. It's the American way!

4/6/2006 1:26:56 PM

At the most basic level, a college degree proves that you know how to jump through hoops. Honestly, if you have problems with this, I don't know what to tell you. Find out what the teacher really wants you to focus on (that's the item with the highest % next to it on the syllabus) and spend 80% of your effort/time on that. In most liberal arts classes, this will be the exams. Show up... don't show up, but make god damn sure you nail the exams. You can usually guarantee a B in most classes this way.

4/6/2006 4:47:23 PM

Quote :

"most people i know who fail classes do so because of a lack of effort/work"

I agree 100%. I still fail to understand the depth of apathy required to fail a class.

4/6/2006 4:50:21 PM

Im guessing youre not in engineering?


or at least in classes where the avg is 50~60 on every test

4/6/2006 6:35:52 PM

Study harder if you are getting a 50 or 60 on tests.

4/6/2006 10:41:35 PM

THE CLASS AVERAGE IS BETWEEN 50 and 60

4/6/2006 11:48:53 PM

Social Loafing

4/7/2006 12:08:52 AM

No amount of studying or work can help you pass a class when teachers don't care

or when tests don't relate to anything you've studied or worked on

Ive had many profs put questions theyve never covered, reviewed, or had a question on in the book



This is just a generalization of my experience with engineering as with Incogs I guess... but saying apathy is the sole reason for failing is utter crap

4/7/2006 12:31:19 AM

the average on my MAE 415 midterm was a 67. it was open book & notes.

there was one question from statics (cantilever beam under distributed load, find moment and shear at two points by sum of moments/forces), and two questions that were identical to examples gone over in class (all you had to do was copy the example and change the numbers)

there is no excuse for failing that test.

i'm sure there are some examples like ^ you said, but the vast majority of my tests have covered things covered in class. Like some people complained that Dr. Ma gave hard tests. But she told us exactly what would be on the test, which was always things covered completely in class. I recall that she put the exact same question on two consecutive tests, and people still missed it the second time around. So, I'm inclined to believe that most students fail due to apathy.

4/7/2006 12:50:06 AM

I had one MAE class... and that was Statics with a certain female prof. (For my elective so I guess thats my apathy)

the class average was 26/45 or so

But she made the tests weighted with the first two questions counting about 80% of the tests

The first quetion was a multipart question which involved the same shit as the homework only she added vectors on the question, WHICH WE NEVER COVERED, not once on the many many homeworks. She then gets pissed that most the students missed that. I havent had physics in three years prior to this class and adding a problem on a 60 minute class which we never did is just shady.


The second question was based off 5 minutes of lecture the day before the test and WE NEVER HAD a homework question or any problems covering it.


She never gave any percentage before hand of what the test will be on.
Most of the homeworks covered the two equations (summation of forces) over and over again

The class in itself is easy, SHE made it hard. My friend in another section with another prof made a 90 because his was open book.



Working hard doesnt apply to me or my friend... Well in this specific example/course that is

[Edited on April 7, 2006 at 1:04 AM. Reason : .]

4/7/2006 1:02:56 AM

First, I would like to say that I have 100% faith in the advice of COMprof. I am currently in the process of trying to figure out just what my "dream" is. The story of Gardenwaltz can also give you inspriation, and provides good advice.

I can speak from personal experience that it is VERY important that you are 100% sure you have the complete motivation and drive to succeed in your classes. The dedication and discipline needed to be successful in school is only going to come from a complete desire for passing your classes. You need to understand exactly why you are in these classes, and how it relates to your future. If you have any hesitation in this regard, I strongly suggest that you're not ready to come back to school yet. I failed out once, got a diagnosis for depressoin (possibly incorrect), served my suspension for a semester, and came back to school. I took community college courses during my suspension, and breezed through them. However, it was all stuff I knew from high school, and required very little effort. Nothing had really changed inside me. I was tired of my crappy job though, so I decided to just go back to school as my mother expected of me. That decision has been the biggest mistake of my life so far. I failed out again. I don't mean to scare you, but it's important that you don't waste your money and time.

4/7/2006 11:14:47 AM

damn, G. this is sad. i thought I was a loser. i need 10 hours to finish and one being ST311, which I failed 3 times . . . i took a year off. thinking about starting again in the summer at a community college and transferring the last 10 hours to STATE.

4/8/2006 12:31:11 PM