Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, flush with a $500 million tax surplus has a great idea. No it's not giving the money back to the tax-payers...Let's Build a $110 Million Dollar Space Port!

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/maney/2006-03-21-spaceport_x.htm

Quote :

""I like to think of legacy issues," Richardson says. ...he made a gut decision to go after the spaceport. He didn't do market studies or focus groups. Didn't wallow in spreadsheets and PowerPoint slides. ...he got thinking about the X Prize and Richard Branson unveiling Virgin Galactic, which plans to build space-faring aircraft to take rich people on two-hour sub-orbital voyages for $200,000 a ticket, starting in 2009. "

Why let private industry build their own SpacePorts ... Let the taxpayers do it!

3/23/2006 11:44:21 AM

I'm with you on this one earthdogg

as soon as there's something usefull in space, then we should start wasting money on it

but I don't want to foot the bill for a bunch of nerds getting their rocks off shooting million dollar missles into nowhere

3/23/2006 11:47:07 AM

Let's see here...useful in space, useful in space...

Virtually unlimited raw materials on asteroids?

Nah...not useful at all. Let me see...

3/23/2006 11:50:51 AM

1) Space is fun to look at, there’s some neat stuff out there, it distracts me from my capitalist sadness of being in the cycle of always needing more.

"as soon as there's something usefull in space, then we should start wasting money on it"

2) Plus its fun to explore, sometimes that can lead to finding useful stuff. But if you don’t buy that, then only see response 1.

3/23/2006 12:58:00 PM

Quote :

"Virtually unlimited raw materials on asteroids?"

OHHH rocks.

Shit I've got plenty of rocks right here that I'd be glad for someone to take. Let's look at what kinds of resources we really need. Oil, diamonds, gold, etc. I see none of these on asteroids.

Quote :

"Space is fun to look at, there’s some neat stuff out there"

You could say the same thing about disneyworld. That doesn't mean the government should start funding feild trips to there.

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"it distracts me from my capitalist sadness of being in the cycle of always needing more"

That's what religion is for, it's a shitload cheaper, and it doesn't require any of my money.

3/23/2006 1:04:31 PM

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"as soon as there's something usefull in space, then we should start wasting money on it"

The earth..... we waste money on that..... but, you know, it's not really in space....


Exploring space is one of the greatest achievements in the history of mankind IMO. I think we should continue doing it. Perhaps the fact that you were born into an era of spaceflight has prevented you from seeing just how awesome of an opportunity it is.

Quote :

"Let's look at what kinds of resources we really need. Oil, diamonds, gold, etc. I see none of these on asteroids."

Um, every single naturally occuring element existing on this planet is likely going to be found elsewhere in the universe......................

Oil, no. Shit like iron and gold... yeah, I'd imagine you can find that......

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 1:11 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2006 1:05:41 PM

Quote :

"as soon as there's something usefull in space, then we should start wasting money on it"

how the fuck do you suggest we find out what is in space without exploring it? telescopes only get us so far.

not exploring space is the dumbest fucking route our species can take.

3/23/2006 1:12:27 PM

Quote :

"Exploring space is one of the greatest achievements in the history of mankind IMO."

Why? I can't think of anything the actual exploring part has given us. I tend to value things like curing diseases or increasing the the standard of living as great achievments, not shooting off missles into the dullest place in the universe.

Quote :

"Um, every single naturally occuring element existing on this planet is likely going to be found elsewhere in the universe......................"

OK, if these elements are found, which is a rather big if for quite a while, and they justify the cost of going out and getting them (which isn't going to happen within at least another 300 years), then private companies will be more than happy to ship them back to us.

Quote :

"how the fuck do you suggest we find out what is in space without exploring it? telescopes only get us so far."

What can putting a man or some stupid robot down there do that we can't from right here? The know exactly what the surface of pretty much every planet they land on looks like before they even get close to it, what's the point in searching mars for some bit of moisture?

Quote :

"not exploring space is the dumbest fucking route our species can take."

No, spending massive amounts of money on it that is much better spent elsewhere is the dumbest fucking route. You don't view the oppurtunity cost of what we do.

Let's just look at an example here:
Two groups of people, group A and group B. Group A spends lots of money on space research which it finds little return on. Group B spends no money on space research and instead spends it on other scientific uses such as curing disease, enlarging the food supply, etc. Group B gets a huge return on their investment in themselves, and can now spend pennies of its relative wealth on space research and FAR outspend and outresearch group A.

We need to develop ourselves and our technology first, then if we find a need to, we can travel way out in space much easier due to our increased productivity and technology. It just pisses you nerds off because you want to prematurely see space in your own lifetimes.

3/23/2006 1:50:26 PM

Im all for this. I cant wait to get that moon oil.

you just have to hurl the barrels at the earth, and let gravity do the rest

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 1:54 PM. Reason : -]

3/23/2006 1:53:38 PM

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"then private companies will be more than happy to ship them back to us."

a commie advocating private companies to do anything makes me lol

3/23/2006 1:54:29 PM

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"It just pisses you nerds off because you want to prematurely see space in your own lifetimes."

You seem to be the one getting "pissed."

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"Why? I can't think of anything the actual exploring part has given us."

Why is it one of our greatest acheivements? Because it is an unbelievable feat. I'm not saying whether or not it has given us anything, but just to let you know, those satellites they put in orbit don't just chill out there doing nothing.

Btw, space exploration is still in a highly experimental stage, so I don't really think we've even seen what could eventually come of it.

Quote :

"OK, if these elements are found, which is a rather big if for quite a while, and they justify the cost of going out and getting them (which isn't going to happen within at least another 300 years), then private companies will be more than happy to ship them back to us."

I wasn't arguing the feasibility of doing it, I was arguing that there is iron and other shit all over the universe. Way to read too far into it.

3/23/2006 2:19:52 PM

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"SaabTurbo: Exploring space is one of the greatest achievements in the history of mankind IMO. I think we should continue doing it. Perhaps the fact that you were born into an era of spaceflight has prevented you from seeing just how awesome of an opportunity it is."

winn4r

3/23/2006 2:29:57 PM

Saturn's moon Titan has enough fuel on its surface and atmosphere to power the entire world for 200 million years. Thats just on its surface and atmosphere. Dont believe me, just watch a special on the Science Channel called 95 worlds and counting.
Also, scientist theorize that the planet Mercury may have the highest amount of gold in the solar system. Mining this resource will probably be done in the future with robots seeing how Mercury has one the most extreme temperture ranges in the solar system. However, while gold is considered one of the best conductors it can be said that such a surplus of it from Mercury would drop its value on Earth so much that it would be considered no more valueble than copper.
The big question about space is what else we'll find out there. We could find new elements that could greatly enhance our knowledge of the universe and also develop new exotic technologies that have never been thought of. Space is not the dullest place in the universe and the entire human species will have to look to it eventually to continue to survive.

3/23/2006 2:55:31 PM

Spaceflight is quite possibly one of the most challenging technological endeavors that we can hope to do. It covers virtually every field of science and gives us the reward of knowledge we can't possibly get on earth. Finding one microbe on mars, just one, fossilized even, fundamentally changes everything we know right now.

To say that isn't worth tax payer money leads me to to wonder what ever really is worth taxpayer money.

That being said it probably would have been better to build a space center for research and development rather then a port for an industry that doesn't exist, and probably wont for decades.

3/23/2006 2:56:55 PM

How about they make this space port and make $texas in taxes when they have the only working space port.

3/23/2006 3:07:45 PM

^ They won't have the only one. We've already gone space ports in Florida, Alaska, Virginia, and 2 in California.

Yeah. I view the debate over the port (which was premature IMO, but its consideration is encouraging) separate from the debate over space exploration (one of the greatest achievements in human history).

And, Kris...are you kidding me? Rocks? Iron is found in "rocks." Titanium is found in "rocks." Aluminum, too. Plenty of valuable minerals worth millions--even billions--of dollars per asteroid; all accessible without the worry of eco-nuts trying to block our ability to mine them.

Calling them rocks doesn't make their contents any less valuable.

Moving away from the resource aspect and looking more long term, the fact is that we're not going to be locked on this rock forever. It makes no sense to solely populate this planet from a pure species preservation standpoint, and eventually it will be a necessity due to overcrowding on the surface anyway. Why not continue the research now so that the methods are refined when we need them later?

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:18 PM. Reason : ...]

3/23/2006 3:13:02 PM

New Mexico's $500 million tax surplus does not effect us in the least bit. $200 billion dollar Iraq war? Now thats something to fuss about.

I know New Mexico is a bustling metropolis and they need all the tax money they can get to upkeep their expensive boardwalks and inner city transportation systems, but I still think they can do a lot with $390 million dollars.


[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:25 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2006 3:22:05 PM

Kris

i've got something useful to go to space for

how about survival of the human race

that's not to say we need to ramp up space exploration right now, our tech is too low

but we will need to eventually

3/23/2006 3:28:54 PM

In games like MoO, spaceports always gave the economy a boost...

3/23/2006 3:30:06 PM

Something tells me that the cost of going to space and getting these "virtually unlimited raw materials" and bringing them back to earth would be greater than the benefit that the "virtually unlimited raw materials" would bring us... even with a $110 million dollar space port.

Congratulations astronaut Bill, you just brought back 200 million in gold from Planet 9. Too bad the operation cost 9 billion.

3/23/2006 3:35:11 PM

Quote :

"The state had a $500 million surplus, Richardson says. He could've used it to go after something dull, like a Honda factory. But he got thinking about the X Prize and Richard Branson unveiling Virgin Galactic, which plans to build space-faring aircraft to take rich people on two-hour sub-orbital voyages for $200,000 a ticket, starting in 2009. The first 100 passengers have already paid their fares. In 10 to 15 years, Richardson believes, the spaceport will be humming with activity. Virgin Galactic field trips will get down to $10,000, he predicts. Low-Earth orbit flights will reach Australia in 30 minutes. The spaceport will draw thousands of rocket racing fans to — where is this being built again? Oh, right — Upham, N.M., a mere 30-minute drive from Truth or Consequences."

Seeing how Richard Branson already has $20 mill worth of paying passengers before he even has the business set up I would say that a space port is a promising endeavor. Richardson is not going to do this if he doesn't think it can become profitable later on. So why the hell not? You got future revenue and you're also laying track for future space exploration. I say go for it.

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:37 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2006 3:36:48 PM

It's already getting crowded here. We'll have to move on to the moon eventually...

3/23/2006 3:37:05 PM

right now it cost $10,000 per pound to go to low earth orbit

which is barely on the stoop of our house, basically standing in the doorframe

it's not even remotely economical to do mining at this point

now with a space elevator, tourism and satellite distribution would probably really bring in the dough

as well as making a trip to mars very feasible

3/23/2006 3:39:06 PM

^^Just make sure you aren't on the ship with the telephone sanitizers.

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:39 PM. Reason : -]

3/23/2006 3:39:15 PM

Quote :

"jbtilley: Something tells me that the cost of going to space and getting these "virtually unlimited raw materials" and bringing them back to earth would be greater than the benefit that the "virtually unlimited raw materials" would bring us... even with a $110 million dollar space port."

Based on cost estimates provided by Completely Out of Your Ass, Inc.

3/23/2006 3:40:54 PM

Quote :

"Let's just look at an example here: Two groups of people, group A and group B. Group A spends lots of money on space research which it finds little return on. Group B spends no money on space research and instead spends it on other scientific uses such as curing disease, enlarging the food supply, etc. Group B gets a huge return on their investment in themselves, and can now spend pennies of its relative wealth on space research and FAR outspend and outresearch group A. "

You had me until group B did something useful with the money. You know gov bureaucracy is going to waste alot of money. So let me have my "Space is fun to look at, there’s some neat stuff out there, it distracts me from my capitalist sadness of being in the cycle of always needing more."

3/23/2006 3:45:53 PM

just looked it up

Gold, the most awesome metal in all of history, prized by EVERYONE

goes for about $8,000 per pound

so... if low earth orbit was brimming with the stuff

it still wouldn't be cost effective right now

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:47 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2006 3:45:59 PM

so obviously

give up and dont continue to make advances in space technology

that will get the price down so we can actually mine the stuff

3/23/2006 3:48:55 PM

Gamecat: I was with you, until that bullshit on "overcrowding." "Overcrowding" will never be a species-threatening issue. Ever.

Now the Sun going red giant and nuking all of the inner ring planets, that's a species-threatening issue.

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:51 PM. Reason : ---]

3/23/2006 3:51:07 PM

^^

no, it means be smart about it

giving tax breaks, or using government money to build a "space port" is just dumb

lets go about it in a reasonable way

personally, i like the direction that NASA is heading in at the moment

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:51 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2006 3:51:23 PM

Gold isn't the most expensive metal.

Lutetium, for example, costs about six times as much.

3/23/2006 3:52:02 PM

^^^

how about a giant asteroid smacking into the planet

or the zit that is yellowstone finally popping?

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:52 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2006 3:52:23 PM

^^

it is the best example though

everyone knows what gold is

3/23/2006 3:52:55 PM

dude

yellowstone is going to fuck us up

im more concerned about that. we can hopefully develop technology to save ourselves from an asteroid or comet.

yellowstone is un-un-fuckable

3/23/2006 3:54:05 PM

OOOHHHH what is a big bad geyser going to get us???

3/23/2006 3:59:21 PM

Nothing is going to happen overnight of course. The main thing being invested here is the re-usable rocket which has already been completed with x-prize contest, it just needs to be refined now (made safer and all that). I dont foresee this rocket hauling large amounts of cargo in the near future. Thats NASA job, to haul large amounts of cargo at the expense hundreds of millions of dollars. The thing about this project is to get fat cats and investors excited about space through space tourism. More money means more advancement and before long, maybe in the next 100 to 200 years, you'll see spacecraft the size of jumbo jets safely transporting people and cargo around the world in minutes instead of hours. The new and improved airline of today.

Space travel is something that evolves over time. It was only about a hundred years ago when the Wright brothers got off the ground and now we have a space station today. Thats impressive, but that is not where we should leave off.

3/23/2006 4:02:55 PM

^^i would expect you to understand thats not what he is talking about

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 4:03 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2006 4:03:00 PM

yeah, i'm a bit confused by smath's response as well

3/23/2006 4:06:35 PM

i was just kidding. i thought about making arguments out of my ass that yellowstone was no threat, but then i decided against it, as i'm interested in this thread.

carry on.

3/23/2006 4:10:24 PM

"Now the Sun going red giant and nuking all of the inner ring planets, that's a species-threatening issue."

One of my astronomy professors pointed out something that I found sort of interesting. If you scale down the time from when the earth formed until now into the time period of a year then

Dinosaurs lived for 10 days which is vastly more than any other animal type ever. It kind of insane that they lasted that long. Human civilization has made it for about 24 seconds so far. Multiple times through out the "year" almost all life has been wiped out on earth, destroying current species.

Humans don't have to worry about the Sun exploding b/c there will be no life resembling humans by that time if life on this planet at all can make it that long. (although the sun isn't the only thing we have to worry about though, the moon continually getting farther away, asteroids that could slam into us, Jupiter destroying our climate/season patterns, and countless other things that we depend on to keep gravity and radiation and everything in check are all only temporary and could end before the sun goes, anyone of which would wipe us out)

With global warming there is a point of no return. We aren't that near it yet, but once its crossed its a chain reaction where increasing heat pulls more carbon out of the rock & water on earth which makes the atmosphere store heat which pulls out more carbon. Laws passed during that time while the planet is still livable, but after the point of no return has been crossed that restrict additional polution would do no good. Once that point is crossed we could end up like Venus, which instead of having gradual geological stuff happening, its surfaces all melts at once and then resurfaces which isn’t conducive to life. And of course even when outside of this melting time, the temperature is hundreds of degrees higher than we could handle. We also have WMDs, nukes, biological weapons etc.

The human race not destroying itself only prolongs its time here; it still won’t be unlimited no matter what we do. But worrying about the sun exploding is like having bullets flying at your head, while you are strapped down in a guillotine, while you’re on fire, & are infected with Ebola... and then worrying that in twenty thousand years from now you may have died of old age.
-
Species don’t live that long, and even if they could all the conditions conducive for life would be gone long before the sun “explodes.”

3/23/2006 4:27:11 PM

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"$110 Million Dollar"

What's the over/under on what the amount actually ends up being?

3/23/2006 4:55:27 PM

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"TGD: "Overcrowding" will never be a species-threatening issue. Ever."

Perhaps calling it an eventual necessity was going too far. It won't be species-threatening because if there are too many people in the petri dish, the appropriate number will starve to death, thus preserving the rest of the population.

Point is, expanding the petri dish to include outer space would be the more humane thing to do in the interests of those potentially-starved people.

3/23/2006 5:07:54 PM

3/23/2006 5:09:44 PM

And we're at about 7 billion now. Incredible growth when you think about it.

3/23/2006 5:11:09 PM

Quote :

"Once that point is crossed we could end up like Venus, which instead of having gradual geological stuff happening, its surfaces all melts at once and then resurfaces which isn’t conducive to life."

global warming is not going to alter geological processes like that.

3/23/2006 5:24:31 PM

^^incredible/scary for any number of reasons.

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 5:24 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2006 5:24:35 PM

Is it? I'm not convinced. The more people there are, the more people there are to figure out how to accommodate more people (building housing, new methods of food production and distribution, etc.).

3/23/2006 5:26:23 PM

nah... that many people is going to tax the hell out of the earth's resources.


and moving people to moon bases is not going to help any.


but space research and exploration is DEFINITELY worth it.

3/23/2006 5:32:11 PM

Which resources?

Obviously you mean non-renewables (and in the case of oil, I'll certainly agree), but which ones?

3/23/2006 5:35:17 PM

non renewables for sure


but if population growth continues, there is bound to be worldwide famine (mostly affecting poor people) because there will be no way to improve technology (and economics) enough to produce and distribute food to everyone the way the population is increasing.

also, the world will become more and more polluted.

renewable resources will start to become harder to replenish.

etc.

etc.

3/23/2006 5:40:20 PM