http://www.nbc13.com/health/8367810/detail.html

Quote :

"In the largest scientific test of its kind, heart surgery patients showed no benefit when strangers prayed for their recovery. And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications. Doctors could only guess why. Several scientists questioned the concept of the study. Science "is not designed to study the supernatural," said Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center. ... "

3/31/2006 1:21:28 AM

actually, they found it wasnt useless, it was found to have negative effects

[Edited on March 31, 2006 at 1:24 AM. Reason : -]

3/31/2006 1:23:53 AM

cool

now that science has proven it doesnt work people can feel free to abandon those stupid religious doctrines

3/31/2006 1:43:54 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006032302177.html

While this is the largest study of its kind, there have been past studies that have shown that prayer DOES make a positive difference.

3/31/2006 1:57:38 AM

i posted this in chit chat because I figured the whole premise was too silly to be discussed in the sb

I guess I should have thought more about the sb

3/31/2006 9:13:15 AM

^^Yeah, past studies with questionable methods.

Quote :

"Science "is not designed to study the supernatural,""

Translation: science can only deal with reality.

3/31/2006 9:40:34 AM

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=397880&page=1#8527159

3/31/2006 10:16:46 AM

Quote :

""There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Moslem scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted." Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?""

I've never thought of prayer as a potential physical healing method. If it is someone's time to go then they go. Wanting to keep them around longer is, in essence, selfish. Praying for physical healing is almost like praying for an A on a test or something. Most people I know pray for comfort, piece of mind, understanding, guidance, etc.

3/31/2006 10:21:52 AM

theres gotta be something in the bible that proves that praying DOES help...i mean...come on

3/31/2006 10:36:24 AM

I always pray for money, whips, clothes, and hos.

3/31/2006 10:37:26 AM

i don't think that prayer can have physiological healing effects, but is does help give a sense of comfort to those who believe in God and it also helps those to become closer to God.

3/31/2006 10:38:44 AM

Quote :

"Science "is not designed to study the supernatural," said Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center."

ding ding

winner

3/31/2006 10:41:58 AM

pimp pastors who extort their parish are designed to study the supernatural

3/31/2006 10:46:20 AM

*shakes head*

3/31/2006 10:49:50 AM

^^^seriously though...he says science isnt designed to study the supernatural...what are his scientific credibilities to give him the authority to say that? i just want to make sure he's qualified and knows about science and religion both...cause i doubt he would just say that to keep the fat stacks of cash in the collection plates around the way every sunday...

3/31/2006 11:02:23 AM

you have to believe science can study religion if you want intelligent design to be your reason for believing in god. Or you could go the faith route to believing in god.

3/31/2006 11:05:01 AM

i just figure that religious people would dismiss some scientists' studies since the scientists don't know as much about religion as the people dismissing their studies...however, i doubt the religious people dismissing the studies know nearly as much about science as the scientists

3/31/2006 11:06:35 AM

i think the most important thing to take from this study is not that prayer "works" or not, but that the knowledge of someone praying can have a detrimental impact. That's just a simple data-point that has nothing to do with the supernatural. It might as well have been knowledge that a little frog was under their bed for all science cares.

3/31/2006 11:11:40 AM

Quote :

"And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications"

It all seems mental. Maybe doing the praying like meditating can relax you, maybe knowing that others are worrying about can stress you out. I don't see any need for any supernatural stuff to be involved. And if there is a god I don't see any reason why he would judge you based on quantity of prayers rather than quality of character.

3/31/2006 11:15:33 AM

saying "prayer is useless", is just as stupid as saying "prayer is the answer"

prayer is not useless, it does help

3/31/2006 12:29:09 PM

Why do they keep coming out with this junk? This controversy was settled in 1872 by Sir Francis Galton when he published "Statistical Inquiries into the Efficacy of Prayer" who showed that remote prayer for individuals is the same as a placebo effect.

3/31/2006 12:29:09 PM

Because the human capacity for denial in the service of superstitious delusion is great.

3/31/2006 12:43:33 PM

Quote :

"prayer is not useless, it does help "

It helps as much as positive think does, i would guess.

3/31/2006 1:45:35 PM

prayer is the appeal to God, not demand. you don't always get what you want, especially if you're just testing the limits.

3/31/2006 2:06:58 PM

Quote :

"denial in the service of superstitious delusion"

please explain that to me

thanks




[Edited on March 31, 2006 at 2:21 PM. Reason : gfhghfdghghdf]

3/31/2006 2:21:37 PM

It's pretty straightforward.

3/31/2006 2:30:37 PM

It is pretty straightforward. We live in a world where missionaries bring Bibles to people dying of famine and disease in Africa. Bibles are taking up space on boats, planes, and trucks that could be taken up with food, water, and medicine. If you are not absolutely appalled by that fact, then there is very little that I can say to you to make my statement any clearer.

[Edited on March 31, 2006 at 5:33 PM. Reason : link]

3/31/2006 5:33:12 PM

Well, God knows that these prayers are being used for a study, so he could kill these people as a test of our faith; just like he did with the dinosaur bones.

[Edited on March 31, 2006 at 5:59 PM. Reason : ]

3/31/2006 5:58:44 PM

makes sense now, i just didn't know what you were refering to

3/31/2006 6:21:07 PM

^^ that sneaky wittle wabbit god

4/1/2006 7:06:11 AM

Quote :

"It is pretty straightforward. We live in a world where missionaries bring Bibles to people dying of famine and disease in Africa. Bibles are taking up space on boats, planes, and trucks that could be taken up with food, water, and medicine. If you are not absolutely appalled by that fact, then there is very little that I can say to you to make my statement any clearer. "

I'm more appaled by the untold amounts of money that go into producing, airing, updating and promoting those "look at this poor starving dirty wretched child you comfortable shameful american" commercials that are all over TV. If my $5 a month can feed that kid for months, why the hell are they wasting so much money making commercials?

4/1/2006 11:19:11 PM

So you'll give them $5. Duh.


Also:

Quote :

"2005 Income ** In many foreign locations, the Bible League asks a small contribution or payment from those receiving Scriptures who can afford it. As shown here, these contributions are re-invested in the local ministry. Partner contributions $20,954,524 Bibles for Missions Thrift Centers 1,633,400 International Association of Bible Leagues contributions 5,991,254 Bible League Foundation 848,764 Gifts-in-kind 378,240 On-field** 5,117,534 Legacies and bequests 105,458 Income Total $35,029,174 Revenue Scripture sales 720,446 Other 92,638 Revenue Total $813,084 Grand Total $35,842,258 2005 Expenditures Scripture placement $21,355,080 Church planter training 6,224,297 Total Ministry Programs 27,579,377 Development 5,804,566 Administration 3,063,082 Expenditures Total $36,447,025 Net income vs. expenses ($604,767) Net Assets Unrestricted Net Assets Undesignated 1,097,000 Land, building and equipment 10,792,000 Total Unrestricted $11,889,000 Temporarily Restricted Ministry program 1,884,000 Timing 97,000 Total Temporarily Restricted net assets 1,981,000 Total Net Assets $13,870,000 "

If $5 feeds a family for a week, how far would 36 million dollars go?

[Edited on April 1, 2006 at 11:35 PM. Reason : .]

4/1/2006 11:30:44 PM

Quote :

"It is pretty straightforward. We live in a world where missionaries bring Bibles to people dying of famine and disease in Africa. Bibles are taking up space on boats, planes, and trucks that could be taken up with food, water, and medicine. If you are not absolutely appalled by that fact, then there is very little that I can say to you to make my statement any clearer."

Do you honestly think bringing Bibles is all missionaries do? Pretty disingenuous of you, don't ya think? Considering there is a pretty good chance those boats never show up if the missinaries never picked up a Bible I think its acceptable to understand the importance of passing on the Bible. These people also believe it offer more lasting nourishment than the food and water also in tow. You can disagree with the message and scoff at the intent all you want but they are their with what supplies they have because of the Bible.

Also... Blessed are the meek.

4/2/2006 1:10:34 AM

I never said that it's all missionaries do, and what's disingenuous is your implication that I did.

Also:

Quote :

"Considering there is a pretty good chance those boats never show up if the missinaries never picked up a Bible I think its acceptable to understand the importance of passing on the Bible."

Way to cheapen the hard work of secular charities.

Quote :

"These people also believe it offer more lasting nourishment than the food and water also in tow."

It doesn't matter whether they believe it, it's wrong that anyone should go hungry, thirsty, or untreated for the sake of loading up another box of storybooks.

4/2/2006 1:15:22 AM

the problem with the study was that random people were praying for the patients, and often were praying to confliciting gods.

I mean, you had Jews praying to Yahweh, Protestants praying to Jesus, Catholics praying to Mary and the Saints, Muslims praying to Mohammed...

no fucking wonder those being prayed for showed a slight increase in complications. we're fucking lucky it didnt bring the Ragnarok.

4/2/2006 1:29:36 AM

Quote :

"I never said that it's all missionaries do, and what's disingenuous is your implication that I did."

Quote :

"Way to cheapen the hard work of secular charities."

I merely returned the favor.

Quote :

"It doesn't matter whether they believe it, it's wrong that anyone should go hungry, thirsty, or untreated for the sake of loading up another box of storybooks."

Wrong on what basis? Secular society across the globe makes sacrifices that take food, water, and medicine out of the hands of those who need it for far less than something with as much profound and positive impact as the Bible has had on people's lives. Education and enlightment have their place in improving the lives of others as well. If the people the missionaries are serving adopt the same principles and attitudes then the slight reduction in food and water being sent will be covered in due time.

4/2/2006 1:36:31 AM

TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT

SECULAR SOCIETY STARTED IT

[Edited on April 2, 2006 at 1:39 AM. Reason : dumbed it down]

4/2/2006 1:39:29 AM

Quote :

"TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT SECULAR SOCIETY STARTED IT"

Don't bitch about a low blow if you feel inclined to use it yourself.

4/2/2006 1:51:36 AM

^^ apparently, you didnt dumb it down enough

4/2/2006 3:29:55 AM

Quote :

"I mean, you had Jews praying to Yahweh, Protestants praying to Jesus, Catholics praying to Mary and the Saints, Muslims praying to Mohammed... "

Haha they cancel the fuck out.

4/2/2006 1:42:47 PM

Quote :

" Also... Blessed are the meek."

Let me know if you see any.

4/3/2006 12:07:54 PM