in light of the "americans hate teh evil atheists" article, here is my first draft and RFC. Especially interested in other atheists' POV.


Atheist Morality as Superior to Christian Morality

I am basically an atheist. With a lowercase "a". Meaning, "lacking theism". Specifically, I do not believe in gods, demons, angels, ghosties, santa clauses, easter bunnies, tooth fairies, etc. This is a "negative atheism", negative in the sense that I am lacking in any beliefs of such things. Lacking, of course, since there is no evidence to date that suggest any such things exist.

That said, I am a moral and ethical person. And I believe that my morals, as an atheist, are in general more highly developed than the bulk of today's Christians.

First, consider the Christian.

the lowest and all-too-typical Christian adheres to the set of Christian morality presented to him, if only because he is aware of, and concerned with, the Christian set of rewards and punishments. Don't do this, don't do that, because if you do, you'll go to "hell"... Do this and do that, because if you do, you'll go to "heaven". This is the lowest level of moral development, described by Kohlberg as "pre-conventional" morality. It is essentially indistinguishable from the child who fears punishment for disobediance, or who avoids temptation to disobey for the promise of future presents from Santa Claus. This type of Christian knows that "laws must be followed", but only because "something bad" will happen to him if he doesn't.

Even the more morally advanced Christian, one with some amount of education and intelligence, has still not not progressed much further. She follows the standard moral code because of a developed sense of social order and self-interest. She desires to live in a society where she is protected against crime and deviance, where the laws are obeyed and enforced. Therefore she submits to following the social code herself, because it is in her self-interest that her society functions in an predictable and orderly (ie, safe) manner.

Now consider the atheist.

What reason does an atheist have to behave morally? Certainly he has no fear of "hell" or longing for "heaven" ... I myself, like many other atheists and agnostics, have had to consider questions of personal morality at a depth that seems largely missing amongst the Christian believers. Indeed, for us atheists it does not suffice to answer questions of morality and ethics with "well, The Bible teaches us this..." or "well, Jesus said that..." or "well, last week the Right Reverend So-and-So said something else..."

We can't just blindly appeal to supernatural deities or magic scriptures. We actually have to develop reasons for supporting moral constructs, and defend these reasons with logic based in the reality of the world we actually live in -- not some world that might be forthcoming after we die and rise up to meet Jesus in the Sky.

For myself, as an atheist, morality is certainly not a question of punishment vs. reward, or even law-and-order vs. anarchy-and-chaos. What's at stake is the fundamental concept of the social contract, individual rights, and universal justice. An ideal society, must also be a "good" society. Any society can have law and order. Totalitarian dictatorships have plenty of law and order, but that does not make them necessarily good.

For a just and good society, the individual has rights that must be respected and protected. But this is not easily determined. Questions must be addressed as to "which rights" and "how much"? Certainly the right to live takes precedence over the right to property. But property rights must supercede at least some individual freedoms

The moral atheist understands that the answers to these moral questions are those that move humanity towards a just society. Justice which is based on universal principles, and not merely following the letter of the law -- or scripture -- as the case may be. Universal principles transcend societal norms, and the truly moral person must at times stand apart from society.

Lacking appeals to supernatural punishments and rewards, and without the suppression of inquiry so often encountered in dogmatic religions, the moral atheist is far more inclined to consider the complexities of morality as it determines the nature of just societies. Her reasoning is not constrained to pre-packaged psalms and sermons, parables and epistles. She is not constrained by fear of punishment, or impelled by self-interest towards safely organized social structures. On the contrary, her reasoning is informed by a concerned for universal principles that move beyond the group-think of heavenly-inspired zealots.

To actively consider moral problems in all their complexities, and make rational choices based on honest investigations, this is truly a higher morality than groups of people behaving in patterns because they are instructed to by an authority with a (perceived) power to punish and reward.





[Edited on April 1, 2006 at 5:32 AM. Reason : ]

4/1/2006 5:05:11 AM

Nothing says "self-important" like signing and dating a tww post with your name

4/1/2006 5:14:55 AM

oops. cut and pasted from word document, didnt notice til after i hit submit.



[Edited on April 1, 2006 at 5:27 AM. Reason : ]

4/1/2006 5:22:38 AM

Rob Johnson, 2006
Seattle WA

4/1/2006 6:18:16 AM

you clearly know nothing about christianity...and by nothing ...i mean nothing...all of your reasoning as to why a christian behaves morally is totally wrong

4/1/2006 8:27:51 AM

its cause they love god

well thats still an inferior reason

4/1/2006 8:34:17 AM

ok fine....that article is still sooo far off base

4/1/2006 8:37:10 AM

this is very pompous

4/1/2006 8:45:43 AM

im an atheist with a lower case a....meaning i dont believe IN WITCHES AND GAR-GOYALLZ....GET OUT OF MY HOUSE.

[Edited on April 1, 2006 at 9:26 AM. Reason : as if no atheist beleives in something "just cuz"]

4/1/2006 9:21:09 AM

Quote :

"all of your reasoning as to why a christian behaves morally is totally wrong"

It seems pretty accurate, actually.
I suppose you've corrections to offer?
Or are you just a mad little Christian? [typical]





"You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world." -- Bertrand Russell

[Edited on April 1, 2006 at 10:04 AM. Reason : ]

4/1/2006 10:02:33 AM

so this is what you feel

superiority to Christians.






and all because mommy and daddy probably didn't tuck you in enough as a kid.

4/1/2006 10:45:16 AM

how the heck do you know im a christian??...all ive said is that that piece shows amazing ignorance of christianity...you assumed i was a christian (typical)


i can tell you this...im not hindu but i have more knowlege of that religion that this joker does about christianity

4/1/2006 10:53:44 AM

I have a counter to it. First, as a Christian, I don't behave one way or another simply because I fear the punishment. I'm less concerned with that as I am with what you call the social contract. So it isn't as if your atheistic morality is completely separate from my Christian one. Besides, the laws of Christianity were basically (with some exceptions) founded on the basic, human ideal of morality, which is what you claim to be using.

Also, you need to make a better argument that says that most/significant portions of atheists ARE in fact moral. I'm not saying they aren't moral, but I'd think that there are some that aren't and that that number may run higher than those that are Christian. I'm not arguing that some Christians aren't total douchebags, but I'm not sure you can really count them as Christian anyhow. I'd think that people of your type aren't morally inferior or superior to your average, God-fearing Christian, but that's a matter of personal opinion.

4/1/2006 10:57:01 AM

well the average, moral, God-Fearing Christian wouldn't proclaim to be superior to atheists any how.

so that at least gives them a half-step up on this self-aggrandizing douchebag

[Edited on April 1, 2006 at 11:01 AM. Reason : :]

4/1/2006 11:00:50 AM

athiests are always trying to show that they are better than Christians

4/1/2006 11:05:14 AM

Quote :

"well the average, moral, God-Fearing Christian wouldn't proclaim to be superior to atheists any how"

i dont know about that. then again, the average person is a dumbass and assumes all kinds of shit about things they dont agree with or understand. i guess this article is average.

4/1/2006 11:07:08 AM

athiests have an inferiority complex with christians

i find it humerous

4/1/2006 11:08:47 AM

well i mean if he's gonna proclaim shit he has no basis or grounds for saying, i'm gonna do the same


HEY ATHEISTS, IS IT TRUE YOU GUYS EAT SHIT. BECAUSE YOUR BREATH SMELLS LIKE SHIT. BABY SHIT THAT JUST CAME OUT OF HUGGIES... Y'KNOW THE GREEN SHIT FROM THE DAYS OF DRINKING TITTY MILK AND CREAMED BROCOLLI... THATS WHAT YOUR SHIT BREATH SMELLS LIKE.

4/1/2006 11:10:18 AM

Quote :

"so this is what you feel.....superiority to Christians"

You don't know what I feel....WTG on reading my mind……..or did Jeebus tell you?

Quote :

"how the heck do you know im a christian??......you assumed i was a christian"

I never said that you were or weren't a Christian....in fact, didn't I ask?

If you guys are just going to put words in my mouth, I'll just post quotes.

"God is by definition the holder of all possible knowledge, it would be impossible for him to have faith in anything. Faith, then, is built upon ignorance and hope."
-- Steve Allen

"Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?"
-- Jules Feiffer

4/1/2006 11:55:13 AM

I stopped reading after the first, horrible paragraph.

4/1/2006 12:24:42 PM

Wow.

I mean. Wow.

Wow.

4/1/2006 1:35:05 PM

"Christians refer to the following as mythological figures: Hercules, Osiris, Bacchus, Mithra, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus, and Horus. All are pre-Christian sun gods and yet all allegedly had gods for fathers and virgins for mothers; had their births announced by stars and celestial music; were born on the solstice around December 25th; had tyrants try to kill them in their infancy; met with violent deaths; and rose from the dead. Moreover, nearly all were worshiped by 'wise men' and were alleged to have fasted forty days."
C. Dennis McKinsey, The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy, p. 108

4/1/2006 2:08:24 PM

^thank you salsiburyboy

4/1/2006 2:31:16 PM

Everyone needs some level of moral guidance, and I think most rational people (atheist & theist alike) do spend some time reflecting on moral questions. The guidance doesn’t have to be the same though. I wouldn’t call this relativism though, because they all share the element of evaluating the facts and a shared desire to find moral truth. For some people they might realize the safest speed for themselves without wrecking into others is 45, and others might realize for them its 55. But its not relativism in that they are all going at the same rate in that they are all going at the speed where they can achieve the most without hurting others.

The problem comes when someone who realizes its 45 for them starts trying to push 45 on to everyone. Especially people who have long distances to travel, a lot to do, or lifestyles or work that require them to get to where they are going quicker than 45 mph, where that speed would cause them significant harm. Granted a speeding example is low impact question, but on other issues when you start legislating more intrusively then things can get bad especially if you start giving out undeserved punishments. Person A shouldn’t be punished for being a protestant, person B shouldn’t be punished for not using the missionary position exclusively etc. Now if we do want to settle on laws like a speed limit of 50 mph we can do that through the social contract.

Now, of the people who haven’t done this moral searching enough, I’m sure there are quantitatively more than there are of atheists just b/c there are more Christians around… although % wise I might be roughly the same. The % might be slightly more Christians who haven’t done enough moral searching than atheists just b/c more people grow up with Christianity as the default setting. But that only reflects poorly on ppl who don’t think about morality beyond default settings, rather than being a poor reflection on Christian doctrines itself.

Maybe the individual rational striving towards morality, if the theists are right, would just be striving for God without calling it by its name. I hope I got my points across, but I fear I just went too deep into the partial metaphor of driving and speed limits.

4/1/2006 2:36:33 PM

words words words

4/1/2006 2:57:02 PM

what else would you expect of the soapbox?

4/1/2006 3:06:00 PM

WE MUST DEFEND OUR NON-BELIEFS

4/1/2006 3:29:07 PM

Quote :

"Atheist Morality superior to Christian Morality"

You've made the impossible happen: Nietzsche's dead body just vomited in his grave.

4/1/2006 3:34:30 PM

yeah its pompous and arrogant and stereotypes christians with a broad brush, when in fact there are liberal and progressive christians out there with highly developed moral faculties.

these progressive christians are probably a larger number than they seem, if only because the fundamentalists and the backwoods bornagain biblethumpers have so effectively and loudly hijacked the nation's ruling conservative party.



[Edited on April 1, 2006 at 5:25 PM. Reason : m]

4/1/2006 4:56:24 PM

My core problem with religion as an agnostic dude is that it's a vehicle for morality and because it attempts to answer a question that is not falsifiable.

My problem with atheism is because it too attempts to answer a question that is not falsifiable. However, in trying to carry the banner of morality, you have made your viewpoint as offensive to me as religion.

Good game. That really takes some concerted effort.

4/1/2006 4:58:55 PM

so man, this is Really Really interesting to me.

I seem to have offended damn near everyone.

I'm not sure if the offense was with my poor writing, arrogant tone, flawed logic ... or what?

FYI. m actually not an atheist. im 100% agnostic. Sometimes i claim to be an atheist, when i feel like being a contrarian. sometimes i claim to be a buddhist, mostly because it sounds really cool if you pronounce it a certain way.

for one thing, im not so stupid as to think all christians can be pointed to as having inferior morality. the various christianities, and millions of believers in one flavor or another, they run the entire spectrum. and i dont think that all or most athiests are especially morally developed. many are. many arent.

but what i am pointing out is that when i broad brush christians as having an inferior morality, and make some compelling arguments for the inferiority of divinely-regulated moral system, it really pisses people off to an extreme measure. yet, in all this atheist bashing going on, y'all are doing the exact same thing.

have a happy April 1.






[Edited on April 1, 2006 at 5:31 PM. Reason : actually most *people* in general are ignorant and undeveloped. no matter what their belief system.]

4/1/2006 5:23:34 PM

What about the "lowest and all-too-common" atheist who hasn't actually sat around and given anything much thought in particular, but who is simply:

a) Too lazy for an organized religion.
b) Rebelling against mommy and daddy.
c) Trying to seem educated and aloof.
d) Just wasn't raised with any particular religion.

etc....

And how is the bulk of that essay not just one long straw man?

[Edited on April 1, 2006 at 5:30 PM. Reason : ]

4/1/2006 5:30:24 PM

^ my "argument", such as it is, didnt address that.

and you're right. there are many atheists like that. i think of them as "atheists by default". probably in equal proportion to the number of christians who just take at face value all the lessons that have been spoon-fed to them since birth, and dont consider anything other than "the bible tells me so"

so i agree with you completely. i think it's a first. mark the date.

4/1/2006 5:34:38 PM

Grumpy, what's wrong with the "all too common" atheist who doesn't really think about religion?

You do realize that the burden of proof falls on the shoulders of the people claiming a dead Jew flew away from a cross into eternal life, right? It seems to me that a reasonable base-state of beliefs for a human is to accept the world around him for what it is.

4/1/2006 5:36:44 PM

Quote :

"Grumpy, what's wrong with the "all too common" atheist who doesn't really think about religion? "

Nothing per se; the problem is that he seems to have discounted them in his argument, just as he has discounted theologians and people who consider their religious faith to be a subject of constant thought and deliberation.

He's painted one side as sheep and the other as philosopher-kings when really both sides are much closer to being equally lame.

Not that you'd have a problem with it.

4/1/2006 5:41:52 PM

Quote :

"Not that you'd have a problem with it."

Of course I have a problem with this guy's characterization of the subject.

In my opinion, hardliner atheists are just as intellectually dishonest as you, Grumpy -- truly a feat.

4/1/2006 5:43:45 PM

Quote :

"My core problem with religion as an agnostic dude is that it's a vehicle for morality and because it attempts to answer a question that is not falsifiable. My problem with atheism is because it too attempts to answer a question that is not falsifiable. However, in trying to carry the banner of morality, you have made your viewpoint as offensive to me as religion. Good game. That really takes some concerted effort. "

McDanger wins the thread

4/1/2006 5:48:29 PM

wheres the dinosaur picture?

4/1/2006 7:14:40 PM

Quote :

"the lowest and all-too-typical Christian adheres to the set of Christian morality presented to him, if only because he is aware of, and concerned with, the Christian set of rewards and punishments. Don't do this, don't do that, because if you do, you'll go to "hell"... Do this and do that, because if you do, you'll go to "heaven". This is the lowest level of moral development, described by Kohlberg as "pre-conventional" morality. It is essentially indistinguishable from the child who fears punishment for disobediance, or who avoids temptation to disobey for the promise of future presents from Santa Claus. This type of Christian knows that "laws must be followed", but only because "something bad" will happen to him if he doesn't."

I stopped reading after this paragraph, because you don't understand what the vast majority of Christian denominations believes. Didn't Luther settle this whole faith vs good works question a long time ago?

4/1/2006 7:31:46 PM

Quote :

"Didn't Luther settle this whole faith vs good works question a long time ago?"

Ya really. Anyway, it was settled before that. Just read Romans.

4/1/2006 11:37:58 PM

Luther only "settled it" because he ignored the epistle ascribed to James, the brother of Jesus:

Quote :

"James 2:14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.... Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?... For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

4/2/2006 12:50:10 AM

People on welfare are lazy, drug-addicted, wastes of air that look to live of handouts.
The wealthy elite worked hard for their status/rewards. and deserve to do with them as they wish.

4/2/2006 1:32:55 AM

ah. here come the Calvinists.

what took you so long?

4/2/2006 1:33:36 AM

ONLY THE SITH DEAL IN ABSOLUTES

4/2/2006 1:33:42 AM

hey, i liked what you wrote.

I also love these guys getting their panty's in a wad! haha

OH NOES THESE UPPITY ATHEISTS HAVE THE ABILITY TO WRITE PROSE!!!

YOU MUST NOT HAVE BEEN LOVED AS A CHILD!

hahahah

is it wrong to believe that looking in to yourself for the strength to overcome is superior than looking for strength from something else, because in the end, you're the only one thats going to be dealing with you.

I find it a lot like hypnosis...you hypnotize someone and tell him he can cluck like a chicken. So he clucks like a chicken. Religious people pray for strength and believe that they are actually stronger, and may very well overcome better...but its like your just pysching out your brain...the mind is a very powerful thing.

opinion off/

[Edited on April 2, 2006 at 2:49 PM. Reason : with not the MSG on my knee to the store for some pie of shit i got it in my eye]

4/2/2006 2:48:10 PM

Wadded atheist panties brought about this thread to begin with, try to keep up. Feigning amusment doesnt work here either.

4/2/2006 3:09:37 PM

of course it's not wrong

its just not "superior" to anything else.

4/2/2006 3:10:17 PM

nothing spells loneliness like a grammar nazi?

i wish i was feigning it 8(

but thanks for the update, ill file it under TWW-etiquette.

4/2/2006 3:25:45 PM

Quote :

"of course it's not wrong its just not "superior" to anything else."

Actually you got it wrong. It IS wrong, and it IS superior to other things.

4/2/2006 3:30:26 PM

^ kind of lost me

I realize its not politcally correct to say that one persons beliefs are "better" or more correct than anothers. So thats the first "wrong" you mention.

but then you're saying it IS superior? or by superior did you just mean "elitist".

or that it is wrong, but at the same time its a superior belief system?

?

4/2/2006 4:56:03 PM