Agnostics reply and explain yourselves. What do you mean when you call yourself agnostic? Why and how do you feel it differs from other categories, atheism?

4/6/2006 3:36:29 PM

Agnostics don't claim a god or gods exist. Nor do they claim a god or gods don't exist.

Y'know...you could look it up yourself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=agnostic

Quote :

" 1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. 2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheist

Quote :

"One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

It isn't that fucking complicated.

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 3:40 PM. Reason : bucket this thread plz]

4/6/2006 3:38:45 PM

Theists have faith in one or more gods.

Atheists have faith in godlessness.

Agnostics are without faith.

4/6/2006 3:43:55 PM

Quote :

"Agnostics are without faith."

Bullshit.

For example. I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow.

4/6/2006 3:45:09 PM

Are you sure you wanted to make a thread about this?

And not, say, look in the dictionary?

4/6/2006 3:45:56 PM

I'm guessing she felt like pwnt into oblivion.

4/6/2006 3:46:33 PM

^^^

Quote :

"Theists have [spiritual/divine] faith in one or more gods. Atheists have [spiritual/divine] faith in godlessness. Agnostics are without [spiritual/divine] faith."

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 4:23 PM. Reason :

4/6/2006 4:23:17 PM

my suspicion is that she wanted the personal beliefs of people who call themselves agnostic, not the dictionary definition.

kind of like when I ask you people on teh L3ft "what's a liberal?"

4/6/2006 4:24:45 PM

None of her questions exceed the abilities of a dictionary to answer.

If she wanted to ask about personal beliefs of agnostics, she could've asked that question.

4/6/2006 4:29:02 PM

Quote :

" For example. I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow."

That's not faith, that's experience.

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 4:35 PM. Reason : ]

4/6/2006 4:35:08 PM

I believe that an agnostic is an old wooden ship used during the Civil War era...

4/6/2006 4:39:52 PM

here's my definition of my own agnosticism:

i don't fucking know.

i'll never fucking know.

no one else will either.

4/6/2006 4:40:39 PM

Pure bullshit.

I've woken up every morning (or afternoon ) for the last 24 years, so my "experience" tells me that I'm going to wake up tomorrow. Does that mean I will? No. Faith tells me that. I'm reasonably young, in fairly good health, and don't live terribly dangerously. Odds are, I'll wake up tomorrow. I'll fill in the small gap that says I might not with faith.

The same is true of the sun rising tomorrow.

The Earth could be destroyed by a collision with a huge asteroid or comet this evening. No Earth, no sunrise to be seen from it, nor living beings to see it.

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 4:42 PM. Reason : ...]

4/6/2006 4:41:06 PM

What's a nubian?

4/6/2006 4:47:20 PM

Quote :

"here's my definition of my own agnosticism: i don't fucking know. i'll never fucking know. no one else will either. "

4/6/2006 4:47:25 PM

its equally stupid to claim either the existance or non-existence of a deity.

that said, live life like an atheist because its a waste of time to search for an answer. just wait until you die - it'll come soon enough.

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 4:50 PM. Reason : s]

4/6/2006 4:49:37 PM

I'd say it's stupid to claim either with certainty, or claim to have proof of either. Admitting to having faith in either answer is fine, because it concedes that the conclusion wasn't drawn from hard evidence and may be incorrect.

4/6/2006 4:52:20 PM

Quote :

"Agnostics reply and explain yourselves. What do you mean when you call yourself agnostic? Why and how do you feel it differs from other categories, atheism?"

Quote :

"None of her questions exceed the abilities of a dictionary to answer. If she wanted to ask about personal beliefs of agnostics, she could've asked that question."

Yeah, a dictionary knows how individual agnostic SoapBox readers explain themselves, what they mean when they call themselves agnostic, why and how they feel it differs from atheism....

Quit trolling, Gamecat.....

Also, it's not like you don't understand the difference between the faith of scientific/experiential certainty and the faith of the spiritual/divine/supernatural......

4/6/2006 4:52:57 PM

Quote :

"its a waste of time to search for an answer. just wait until you die - it'll come soon enough.."

i also don't know that there will be any answers upon death, and neither do you.

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 4:55 PM. Reason : *]

4/6/2006 4:54:25 PM

She didn't ask about personal beliefs, hempster. Nice attempt at a troll, though.

She asked what you mean when you call yourself agnostic. Unless you're an idiot and use the term incorrectly, which I suppose you might do, your answer is going to line up rather nicely with the dictionary's definition.

As for "why and how I feel it differs from other categories" and specifically atheism, again, it's easy enough to answer by cracking open a dictionary. Why and how I feel it differs begins and ends with the two completely different meanings of the words.

But again, I suppose you could just not know the difference between them, as zenobia0000 clearly doesn't, and use them interchangeably like an idiot. In that case, you might do well to answer the question.

4/6/2006 4:57:32 PM

Quote :

"i also don't know that there will be any answers upon death, and neither do you."

well I didn't think about reincarnation - but my understanding was that most reincarnation theories posit that you go rest a little bit in the astral plane or whatever before reincarnating

so then there's two other major possibilities

1) nothingness in which case it didn't matter even if you HAD figured everything out since when you cease to exist, so does all the worth of your past achievements

2) or a classic afterlife in which case we at least know that there is a deity of sorts

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 5:05 PM. Reason : s]

4/6/2006 5:04:54 PM

agnostics believe in odds

all others believe in fate

4/6/2006 5:05:12 PM

^ What about free will?

And agnostics can believe in an interplay between odds and fate. Multiple universes play heavily into my own belief system.

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 5:11 PM. Reason : ...]

4/6/2006 5:10:56 PM

Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth or falsity of certain claims—particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God or gods—is unknown, unknowable, or incoherent. Some agnostics infer from this that these claims are irrelevant to the meaning of life.

Concerning the etymology of the term, the Oxford English Dictionary notes an account from an 1881 letter by R.H. Hutton, which states that the term agnostic was first suggested by Thomas Henry Huxley at a party for the now defunct Metaphysical Society held at Mr. James Knowles's house on Clapham Common, one evening in 1869. He coined the term in reference to the Biblical account by St. Paul (Acts 17:16-34) concerning the story about the altar dedicated to "the unknown god." The word agnostic comes from the Greek a (without) and gnosis (knowledge).

The term agnostic is also used to describe those who are unconvinced or noncommittal about the existence of deities as well as other matters of religion. Agnosticism, focusing on what can be known, is an epistemological position (dealing with the nature and limits of human knowledge); while atheism and theism are ontological positions (a branch of metaphysics that deals with what types of entities exist). Agnosticism is not to be confused with a view specifically opposing the doctrine of gnosis and Gnosticism—these are religious concepts that are not generally related to agnosticism.

Agnosticism is distinct from strong atheism (also called positive atheism or dogmatic atheism), which denies the existence of any deities. However, the more general variety of atheism, weak atheism (also called negative atheism, and sometimes neutral atheism), professes only a lack of belief in a god or gods, which is not equivalent to but is compatible with agnosticism. Critical atheism admits that a god or gods are meaningful concepts but the evidence for them is not in hand, so a default position of not believing in them must be taken in the interim.

Agnostics may claim that it isn't possible to have absolute or certain spiritual knowledge or, alternatively, that while certainty may be possible, they personally have no such knowledge. In both cases, agnosticism involves some form of skepticism towards religious statements. This is different from the simple irreligion of those who give no thought to the subject.

4/6/2006 5:28:18 PM

All agnostics are atheists, not all atheists are agnostic.

Atheism - implies a lack of theistic faith. This can be because, like with ghosts, they aren’t falsifiable, you can’t disprove them, and you don’t choose to believe in supernatural things without evidence. Although if the right evidence came along, they would be convinced the same way they would be convinced of something in a science class. Also some atheists (I’ve never met this kind, but have been told by many theists that they exist) have blind faith that god doesn’t exist.

Agnostics – Some withhold judgment, are unsure, or skeptical. Some choose not to believe in the supernatural without evidence.

They are overlapping terms. Agnosticism can imply a skeptical nature, but doesn’t have to. Atheism can imply faith that god doesn’t exist, but doesn’t have to, and I’ve never seen it actually be this case (just like most ppl who say I don't believe in ghosts don't mean I have found anti-ghost footprints proving they don't exist, what they mean is I haven't seen evidence for the supernatural so I will only change my mind if I do). But otherwise they are just the same, they want proof of god before consenting and believing, otherwise they are a(without)theists(god).

4/6/2006 5:45:16 PM

How is an agnostic--who is unsure as to the existence of any deity--considered an atheist? You're asserting agnostics have drawn a conclusion...

4/6/2006 5:47:25 PM

agnostic and atheist are kind of apples and oranges... they overlap but they are different terms.

athiest & theist are in the same realm

you either definitely believe in god, or you don't definitely believe in god. if you don't, then you are an athiest. there are any number of reason why someone who choose not to, whether they are unsure, indecisive, waiting longer to decide, or think that without scientific evidence that they shouldn't believe in god.

Atheist as in lacking theism applies to agnostics who haven't made a decision on committing to theism, and it also applies to someone would want scientific evidence before they believed in god, and it also applies to the crazy guy who has faith that god doesn't exist.

4/6/2006 5:53:27 PM

Quote :

"“As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God. On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think that I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because, when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.” — Bertrand Russell, Collected Papers, vol. 11, p. 91 "

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 6:10 PM. Reason : http://www.control-z.com/pages/agnosticism.html]

4/6/2006 6:01:30 PM

No one claims they can disprove something thats not falsifiable, I've heard there are some who have faith that there is no god so I included where I thought they would fit on the map. Of course, except the faith-in-no-god ppl, everyone would accept god given the right kinds of evidence. Like I said I don't think agnostic & atheism are the same kind of terms.

4/6/2006 6:15:32 PM

Quote :

"everyone would accept god given the right kinds of evidence."

what would be an example of your idea of evidence that would convince everyone except those atheists you mentioned

4/6/2006 6:24:34 PM

god appearing and saying hi for one, left over jesus dna that we could see had radically different and advanced properties compared to normal human dna for another.

i'm of the feeling that we should treat religions alike. if dionysus uses miracle to give us wine, and later ppls reflect on that as a culture creating a story to honor the advancement of being able to store fruit juice (or athena and solid foods), then we should say if jesus turned water into wine that probably reflects a similar sentiment. if apollo used miracles to move cretan ppl to his new temple in greece & slayed a dragon/snake then we interpret that as migrations of people who are bringing in a new religion that replaces the old natural one there. if the world is flooded for the corruption of man and only the 2 most pious ppl survive to repopulate it then we should treat it the same whether it is noah, or the greek counter part. if pandora brings the downfall of man and we consider this to be a societal reflection rather than a real story, then we should do the same for eve. we've found real cities involved in the mythology like mycenae (agamemnons home) & troy (hector, priam, pairs), crete (minos & the minotaur), but we say the battles probably represent trade disputes and worries over who should rule, or with the minotaur's labyrinth we think it reflects something natural like the collapsed winding palace at knossos that would have looked like a labyrinth. (fictional minotaurs traditionally wield double axes, which was a real symbol of a royal house at knossos). Theres some greek supernatural being tie to giving them language from the east which actually reflects how their language is based off the Phoenician language from the east.

If for other religions we are going to try to de-miraclelize the stories and see what societal concerns and cultural shifts they actually represented (& when we do this we usually find other evidence to support the claims) then we should do it for our own religion. Just because the greek polytheism stories came thousands of years before Christianity doesn’t mean we shouldn’t subject both to the same kind of scrutiny.

And its not like ancient greek religion existed only in radically different contexts... it was followed within a democracy, that had astronomers, mathmeticians, medical professionals, and most of the other academic fields we look at although admittedly many of them weren't as advanced. (academy was the name for the garden where plato had his school I believe... ultimately academics is named after a garden... a random side note, but one that i find interesting).

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 7:54 PM. Reason : .]

4/6/2006 7:37:00 PM

an atheist

4/6/2006 7:38:20 PM

Atheists believe that the burden of proof relies on god or his followers to prove his existence. Agnositics don't understand how the burden of proof works.

4/6/2006 8:21:59 PM

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=397793&page=3

Starting on page 3 in this thread, it starts to derail into my defense of my agnosticism.

Quote :

"agnostics believe in odds all others believe in fate"

Not true -- I'm an agnostic, and I believe "fate is in the elbow"

Smath hit it pretty much on the head, I can't add much.

Including agnostics in the clump of atheists is a big mistake. They're similar in that they have no religion, but they are not atheistic (they do not claim a belief OR disbelief in God). They're areligious, but areligious does not imply atheist. They're completely outside of the atheist/theist debate.

4/6/2006 9:16:13 PM

Don't assume that all atheists "have no religion". There are atheistic religions.

4/6/2006 10:19:01 PM

"There are atheistic religions."

See the orange ppl in my diagram

4/6/2006 10:34:20 PM

Quote :

"Don't assume that all atheists "have no religion". There are atheistic religions."

Buddhism is probably more of a philosophy/world-view than a religion, seeing as how religion mostly focuses on a superhuman controlling/creative force.

4/6/2006 10:49:22 PM

A la karma?

4/6/2006 11:16:19 PM

Quote :

"i don't fucking know. i'll never fucking know. no one else will either."

And I'm going to just append:

And I don't care what you feel, because ya don't know.

4/6/2006 11:22:39 PM

Quote :

"Excoriator: that said, live life like an atheist because its a waste of time to search for an answer. just wait until you die - it'll come soon enough."

Quote :

"30thAnnZ: i also don't know that there will be any answers upon death, and neither do you."

Quote :

"Excoriator: well I didn't think about reincarnation - but my understanding was that most reincarnation theories posit that you go rest a little bit in the astral plane or whatever before reincarnating so then there's two other major possibilities 1) nothingness in which case it didn't matter even if you HAD figured everything out since when you cease to exist, so does all the worth of your past achievements 2) or a classic afterlife in which case we at least know that there is a deity of sorts"

Excoriator, the shit you posted in this thread is really fucking annoying. "Well, I didn't think about reincarnation..." BULLSHIT. You hardly thought at all. Your thinking on this matter is more superficial than the thoughts of a freshman in high school who's wrestling with his or her faith. You claim we'll know soon enough. 30thAnnZ says there's a chance we won't, and you start talking about reincarnartion? Dude, if option 1 is the case, then WE'LL NEVER KNOW. If there's nothingness, WE WON'T FUCKING KNOW IT. You talked about how, in the case of nothingness, it wouldn't matter if we had everything figured out, as if that bullshit was a response to 30thAnnZ's assertion that we may never know.

In short, Excoriator, you are an awful agnostic.

[Edited on April 6, 2006 at 11:48 PM. Reason : his or her]

4/6/2006 11:44:23 PM

pwnt

4/7/2006 12:02:34 AM

That's just for starters...

Quote :

"Excoriator: well I didn't think about reincarnation - but my understanding was that most reincarnation theories posit that you go rest a little bit in the astral plane or whatever before reincarnating so then there's two other major possibilities 1) nothingness in which case it didn't matter even if you HAD figured everything out since when you cease to exist, so does all the worth of your past achievements 2) or a classic afterlife in which case we at least know that there is a deity of sorts"

Major possibilities? You can't rank possibilities.

4/7/2006 12:21:22 AM

i was ranking in terms of their general popularity. As I'll explain later, I was fishing for what 30th was referring to.

Quote :

"You talked about how, in the case of nothingness, it wouldn't matter if we had everything figured out, as if that bullshit was a response to 30thAnnZ's assertion that we may never know."

it was.

Quote :

"You claim we'll know soon enough. 30thAnnZ says there's a chance we won't, and you start talking about reincarnartion?"

well, its one of the more popular theories that might explain why he was thinking we wouldn't, along with nothingness being another possibility. Since he didn't indicate which direction he was going, i was just fishing around for what he might have been referring to.

Quote :

"Dude, if option 1 is the case, then WE'LL NEVER KNOW. If there's nothingness, WE WON'T FUCKING KNOW IT. "

ya... see you have to go back to the beginning of his and my dialogue. I had stated that it was a waste of time to search for an answer because we'd know soon enough when we died. I was assuming that nothingness was taken for granted but i guess i should've known better since this is TWW. anyway, my general point here is that its a waste of time to search for an answer to life/afterlife because we'll either find out or we'll be nothing in which case it wouldn't have mattered whether we figured everything out or not.

I'm sure you're still having fun romping around in the shiny new world of open-minded skeptical searching for the real truth. have fun in junior-agnostic league. let me know when you're a bit more cynical and we'll probably be able to have a more interesting conversation.

I'll end with one of my favorite quotes:
No fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and the whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins. -- Paraphrased from Bertrand Russell

k now you can start attacking me for being so amateur as to have a fav. quote by a cliche philosopher

[Edited on April 7, 2006 at 8:22 AM. Reason : s]

4/7/2006 8:01:47 AM

i actually was going along the lines of reincarnation with that. because nothingness wouldn't be "not knowing" or "knowing", it's nothing.

reincarnation would be not knowing in a true sense.

4/7/2006 8:26:54 AM

Quote :

"What's a nubian?"

roflaflolfoalololohahalol

[Edited on April 7, 2006 at 8:40 AM. Reason : shut the fuck up]

4/7/2006 8:39:51 AM

Quote :

"i actually was going along the lines of reincarnation with that. because nothingness wouldn't be "not knowing" or "knowing", it's nothing. reincarnation would be not knowing in a true sense."

cool ... I'll agree with that I guess... except for my point regarding the astral plane and shit... Also, I would probably make the argument that to be reincarnated the way you describe is for all intents and purposes, becoming nothing.

for the purposes of this thread, though, since its not about reincarnation, i'll go along with your point.

[Edited on April 7, 2006 at 12:44 PM. Reason : s]

4/7/2006 12:28:50 PM

If you can't know the truth about something, the best course of action is to remain neutral on the subject.

Hence, Agnostics.

4/7/2006 12:45:53 PM

Agnostics just don't know.


They don't see how you can know, either.

4/7/2006 12:51:38 PM

The atheist/agnostic distinction is pretty dumb to me. If you have no reason to beleive in a god, be an atheist. The "impossible to know" thing seems pretty wishy-washy. It's also impossible to know that we're not in the matrix, but everyone believes we're not in a computer simulation instead of being "matrix agnostic".

4/7/2006 12:56:19 PM

i don't see how an atheist could be anything but a fatalist, an agnostic doesn't know, but how can a theist (if given free will), be a fatalist too?

4/7/2006 1:14:18 PM