Ok, my dad and I dont' really see eye to eye. He's an ultra-right wing super neoconservative with a dash of sean hannity. Me? I'm slightly right of center and sane.

Dad. He's big into church. I grew up in church. I believe in God and Jesus and the whole package. Dad is an ultra, whatever-the-bible-says-must-be-true-with-no-exception-whatsoever-halleluja-amen.

So we start talking about oil. And he wants to say that there is, literally, an infinite amount of oil in the ground. Once I explain that since the world is finite, there cannot be infinite oil, he says that oil will reproduce itself to meet our demand (I think he thinks that oil has brains or something and can read demand). Then I say, oil takes millions of years to develop. He says not so because the world is 7,000 years old.

Then I get angry. I'm like, dad, there comes a point when you have to look at the realm of science as not witchcraft. There are certain truths to science. I said, it becomes pointless to debate with you when everytime I turn around I have to keep proving things that have long been proven. Everytime I make a point, I have to remind you and prove to a skeptical you that 2 + 2 is indeed 4.

I don't get him...

4/25/2006 7:02:09 PM

math is a figment of man's collective mind. he's definately got you on the age of the earth argument. WHY CAN'T YOU JUST BELEIVE!?!?!?

4/25/2006 7:13:43 PM

i think it's just flat impossible to argue/debate with people who believe the earth is 7000 years old. Simple, end of story - just don't bother. It's not worth it.

4/25/2006 7:15:13 PM

cuz they are right.

4/25/2006 7:16:12 PM

Quote :

"It's not worth it."

4/25/2006 7:20:32 PM

faith > darwin......duh

4/25/2006 7:23:27 PM

haven't you seen that truth fish eating the darwin fish? That is scientific proof that evolution is false!1

4/25/2006 7:31:57 PM

he's just so rigid. And I suppose I can respect the fact that he is firm in his belief. It makes it really comical that he just doesn't believe that oil is the product of dead things millions of years ago... because by believing that, he thinks he would have to disbelieve christianity.

I'm like........ no.

Is it completely in conceivable to him that an all-knowing, all-powerful God wanted to send the message of why the world was created instead of giving a scientific rundown of how the world was created. I tell him it's kinda funny how the sedimentary layers line up EXACTLY with the process of the "days" of genesis.

If you ask me, it reaffirms my belief in God the Mathemetician if in fact the theory of evolution is true. How much greater a feat is it to plan a creation based upon the tiny changes and surpassing statistical impossibilities to create intelligent life than just to say "boom."

The problem with todays people is that you're either a creationist or an evolutionist... did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps a merger of the two might be the best explanation?

Not to him. Evolution is teh debil.

4/25/2006 7:33:10 PM

intelligent design...and it should be taught in our schools.

4/25/2006 7:35:14 PM

i don't even consider myself a subscriber of intelligent design. I am fully on the side of Darwin here. I do believe that there is a Creator.

I don't think intelligent design actually uses evolution at all.

4/25/2006 7:36:44 PM

cuz ur a heathen

4/25/2006 7:41:08 PM

If anyone takes the bible as the literal truth, there is no point in a debate. But if you want to argue with your wacked-out father...

Just ask him why the gas in his car doesn't clusterfuck its self to refill his tank when he prays.

[Edited on April 25, 2006 at 7:43 PM. Reason : k]

4/25/2006 7:42:50 PM

seriously though, the same could be said for half the ppl in the world. this isnt limited to just bible thumpers. gonna have to get used to ppl being stubborn.

4/25/2006 7:45:23 PM

The unreasonable can not be reasoned with. It is as simple as that.

Quote :

"I don't think intelligent design actually uses evolution at all."

Correct. They believe as your father does. 7k Years. Science is teh debil.

[Edited on April 25, 2006 at 7:47 PM. Reason : s]

4/25/2006 7:46:49 PM

The way I look at things is that God gave us intelligence. I think that is a direct challenge to figure our world out around us. Why cast a blind eye to things that we can learn about creation?

I hope I'm the modern wave of people who believe in religion who can also be a firm believer in science. I don't think they contradict eachother. I think they enhance eachother.

I want to redefine Intelligent Design as one who believes in a merger of God and science.

[Edited on April 25, 2006 at 7:48 PM. Reason : .]

4/25/2006 7:48:26 PM

Quote :

"I want to redefine Intelligent Design as one who believes in a merger of God and science."

How about we just drop that term altogether shall we? Anything involving God isn't science. There is no proof, there is no point including it as part of science.

4/25/2006 7:55:24 PM

You're just as bad as my dad. You're the other way.

No, God cannot be proven, nor do I try. I'm not proving God with science, I'm proving creation with science. It's up to you who/what created it.

4/25/2006 7:57:38 PM

Let churches teach faith, schools teach science, & individuals build the personal bridges they need to live happily.

4/25/2006 8:00:58 PM

Quote :

"I'm proving creation with science."

And how the hell are you going to manage that one mr copperfield?

4/25/2006 8:05:42 PM

not the "thoery of creation." I'm proving what our creation is and how it got here with science (sorry, bad context).

Creation is open to interpretation, my (my... meaning our and society's) proof of it is with science. How did it get here.

Other than that, I prove it with magic

[Edited on April 25, 2006 at 8:16 PM. Reason : .]

4/25/2006 8:15:55 PM

Quote :

"And he wants to say that there is, literally, an infinite amount of oil in the ground. Once I explain that since the world is finite, there cannot be infinite oil"

Well, your dad is not entirely wrong. There is recent evidence that oil is naturally occuring deep within the Earth. It seems CO2 and H2O under intense pressure and temperature form simple hydrocarbons which, over time, cook into the complex hydrocarbons we use today (I'm not sure of the process, I'm trying to paraphrase something I read long ago). It is only a theory, but they have mounting evidence to back it up. As this process would take place far deeper within the planet, at much higher heat and pressure, it could happen much faster than the textbook guestimate of millions of years. So, if this theory is correct then there is a chance you are not burning dead dinosaurs. No one is suggesting this is the source for all hydrocarbons as the past evidence of fossil remains being prevalent in coal seams is predominantly irrefutable.

That said, what does your dad say happened to the Dinosaurs?

google search: "And the evidence so far suggests that methane, at least, can be produced independent of biological materials. When such common materials as iron oxide, calcite and water are squeezed under pressures more than 100,000 times those found at sea level and heated up to 2700 degrees Fahrenheit, methane does form"
"That's very close to conditions found 100 miles under the ground."
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/DyeHard/story?id=421532&page=1

[Edited on April 25, 2006 at 8:34 PM. Reason : new quote]

4/25/2006 8:20:09 PM

He has no answers for dinosaurs. He thinks they existed alongside humans.

I don't even know what to think about that.

4/25/2006 8:25:37 PM

When Dionysus does his water to wine type trick it’s a reflection on the society’s value on attaining the ability to have non-perishable fruit juice. When Jesus does it, it’s a miracle.

When the world is destroyed in a flood & only 2 people survive (the most holy guy & his wife) it’s a reflection on cultural views & proper governance. When Noah does it, its god’s wrath.

When Apollo, son of God, (Zeus is referred to with monotheistic type references b/c he’s the main god, even though it’s a polytheistic society) is painted with a Halo or crown of thorns & is opposed to an evilish goatman/serpent god its just art. When it’s Jesus it’s real even though Apollo & the Greek religion were around over a thousand years before Jesus & Christianity.



If you are going to call out your dad on not being reasonable then you just as reasonably need to accept that much of Christianity is either wrong or a conglomeration of random parts of different older religions like Zoroastrianism etc. Although the problem with that is it can lead you on a path towards Atheism or to something polytheistic like Hinduism where you have to believe that all major religions insights into the divine might have some value. Greco-roman polythiesm had a really long run as the main religion in western civilization, has 40 thousand followers in greece today plus more across the world & even more revivalists elsewhere, and was really good at incorporating other religions and getting along... until the intolerance of monotheism came along.

4/25/2006 8:26:47 PM

Quote :

" I tell him it's kinda funny how the sedimentary layers line up EXACTLY with the process of the "days" of genesis. If you ask me, it reaffirms my belief in God the Mathemetician if in fact the theory of evolution is true. How much greater a feat is it to plan a creation based upon the tiny changes and surpassing statistical impossibilities to create intelligent life than just to say "boom." The problem with todays people is that you're either a creationist or an evolutionist... did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps a merger of the two might be the best explanation?"

I've never heard of the sedimentary layers lining up as described in Genesis (but, as you imply, with a fossil record that lends credit to evolution). That's pretty interesting.


[Edited on April 25, 2006 at 8:33 PM. Reason : asdf]

4/25/2006 8:33:18 PM

does your dad read straight from the greek and hebrew?

4/25/2006 8:40:13 PM

you know the answer to that

4/25/2006 10:03:01 PM

I used to work with some people who were pretty much dead-set bible beaters who wouldn't accept anything outside of a literal word-for-word interpretation of the bible.

It was hard to discuss anything with them. :/ So I didn't. They were so set in their ways that the only thing that would change their mind would be something unacceptable like torture or brainwashing.

4/25/2006 10:06:14 PM

Quote :

"I've never heard of the sedimentary layers lining up as described in Genesis (but, as you imply, with a fossil record that lends credit to evolution). That's pretty interesting."

This is an observation of mine. In the Bible, the way that things were created were from the least complex creatures (sea animals) to most complex (humans).

I imagine the sedimentary layers would follow that as well.

This is my own idea actually. I coined this one. Maybe I wasn't the first, but I came up with it without influence.

4/25/2006 10:16:53 PM

not even pot?

4/25/2006 10:43:44 PM

Dinos living with humans, that shit always cracks me up when people say that.

4/25/2006 10:48:16 PM

4/25/2006 10:49:56 PM

“Man himself had come into being by like transmutations. Mankind was supposed by Anaximander to have sprung from some other species of animals, probably aquatic. For, he thought, man with his extended infancy could not have survived, originally, in the manner he does presently.”
-wiki

The ancient greek philosopher Anaximander had some evolution type ideas. Several other philosophers & scientests did too contributed over the next two & a half mileniuia.

The medieval philosopher/theists tried to tie the cosmology of the world & man in religion & in nature (or science) together.

The first of the Greek Gods was Chaos. With presents both the ideas of messyness, and the eptmilogical connection to chasm. With seems exactly like the cosmology of prime matter that many medievals discussed.

The poetries of scripture, regardless of particular religion, will always be vague enough to be interpreted in a way that fits the facts, regardless of religion. Even if people were to go with a big bang/big implosion theory the Greek cyclical view of time in the homeric hymns could fit it, or just a big bang ever extending universe then the cosmology of Hesiod could fit it.

I’m more sympathetic to people who either believe there is no divine role in things, or that all religions have an insight into the divine like greco-roman polytheism or hinduism, but not to the intolerance of monotheism the way it is traditionally understood. I know some christians think other faiths across place & time are somewhat insights into god, but just misunderstandings of the true god that you happen to worship. That’s a step in the right direction, but kind of an arbitrary stopping point imo.

It takes some doing, & its a little rough around the edges, but the natural of scripture lends itself to being able to fit with any science. It can be done, but stopping with only your god being right & all others wrong would be a diservice to the ideals of reason if you are going after someone for being unreasonable over religion.

4/25/2006 11:03:13 PM

Just because he's your dad doesn't mean he's not a dope about this like lots of other people.

You don't get to choose your family members. Your attitude about this seems to be more "HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO ME" than anything else. Don't stress it.

4/25/2006 11:16:20 PM

It seems to me that you may be threatening some of your dad's core beliefs. That's something to definitely avoid if you want to maintain a positive relationship. Some fathers enjoy sparring intellectually with their independent-minded kids. They might enjoy the give-n-take. More commonly though, fathers feel satisfaction if their kids pick up their beliefs.

In the interest of discretion, it may be wise to move on to safer topics of discussion.

4/25/2006 11:23:10 PM

ALL I KNOW IS I DIDN'T COME FROM NO DAMN MONKEY

4/25/2006 11:31:10 PM

i once had a SCIENCE teacher ask the class, with no sarcasm, "how did a sponge decide to grow a brain"

its not always worth arguing about stuff

[Edited on April 25, 2006 at 11:33 PM. Reason : ca]

4/25/2006 11:32:46 PM

Apparently, my dad used to be far right. Now he's become somewhat liberal to the point that he'll vote Republican and Libertarian. When we debate, he'll raise a point that conflicts with mine, and I'll reply with a "touche." And vice versa.

As for yours, maybe check out some Bill Hicks, especially Dinosaurs in the Bible. Learn to laugh about it.

4/25/2006 11:53:58 PM

Yes, you should go tell him he was right about the production of oil, in some sense, as I covered in a post above on this page. He'll be happy to hear you finding common ground.

4/25/2006 11:56:41 PM

Quote :

" he's just so rigid"

It's not rigidity to think the world is only 7000 years old, it's willful ignorance (aka stupidity).

4/26/2006 12:05:06 AM

tell him to invest in oil companys since they are going to keep finding more and more oil forever since god wills that there is an infinite amount. great way to play the market on his divine stock tip. see if he'll really put his money where his mouth/faith is.

4/26/2006 12:16:58 AM

god will make more oil

Quote :

"end of story"

and end of thread

4/26/2006 12:34:26 AM

[Edited on April 26, 2006 at 12:45 AM. Reason : .]

4/26/2006 12:44:01 AM

abonorio made a thread about a right winger who's impossible to debate with

lol



[Edited on April 26, 2006 at 12:55 AM. Reason : .]

4/26/2006 12:53:39 AM

abonorio :

i have the exact same problem as you do. my dad and i are polar opposites. and man, does he love to argue politics and religion. it used to caused me a lot of stress.

but ive come to realize that you just cant argue politics and religion with your dad. youre not going to convince him that he's wrong about anything, any more than he's going to convince you the world is 7000 years old.

so give it up right now.

when he starts provoking you, you just have to change the subject. i like what Pupils DiL8t said: "When we debate, he'll raise a point that conflicts with mine, and I'll reply with a "touche." "

and let it go at that. end the debate before it starts. because, ultimately, it will only drive a wedge between you two.

you have to remember that this is the man who gave up his personal and economic freedom to keep your ass alive for 18 years. ... and then continued to support you, at least partially, while you obtained a higher education.

Think about that. I mean really think about it.

You suspect your old man's a simpleminded fool about science, politics, and theology? Maybe so ... But he's your father and there ain't no other man in the world who gives a shit about you like he does. And just by virtue of his years, I'll bet he has a lot of wisdom about things that really matter.

So find your common ground and stick to it.





[Edited on April 26, 2006 at 1:31 AM. Reason : ]

4/26/2006 1:03:10 AM

^He made no indications it was straining their relationship.

Also, who better to convince a family member they're wrong than a family member (especially about something like this)? A kid wouldn't let their parents fall in to a crack habit, why let them believe the world is 7000 years old? It's almost your duty to make him see the light, but arguing isn't the way. You have to be more subtle and sneaky about it.

4/26/2006 1:18:01 AM

Quote :

"He made no indications it was straining their relationship"

you, sir, have absolutely no ability of perception.

Quote :

"A kid wouldn't let their parents fall in to a crack habit"

and you have no ability for logical analogy.

Quote :

" It's almost your duty to make him see the light"

yet despite your lack of intuition, you do have a strong sense of self-righteousness

Quote :

"You have to be more subtle and sneaky about it."

oh... um. yeah. brilliant.

4/26/2006 1:26:46 AM

Quote :

"tell him to invest in oil companys since they are going to keep finding more and more oil forever since god wills that there is an infinite amount. great way to play the market on his divine stock tip. see if he'll really put his money where his mouth/faith is."

Uh, if oil is plentiful and forever available, thus cheap, then owning stock in an oil company is a bad investment.

4/26/2006 1:36:10 AM

^^ wow, you seem to have a lot of harbored anger... this comic seems appropriate now (the general idea at least, hopefully your superior comprehension skills will allow you to understand):



[Edited on April 26, 2006 at 1:40 AM. Reason : ]

4/26/2006 1:38:55 AM

^ clever.

4/26/2006 1:48:58 AM

Quote :

"you, sir, have absolutely no ability of perception."

Actually, it doesn't strain our relationship at all. We build off of that. We debate at the kitchen table, on the phone, any chance we get. I think it makes us stronger because we have differing opinions. Of course, things do get heated, but the conversation always ends with "I love you dad" and "I love you too."

So no, it doesn't strain our relationship whatsoever.

4/26/2006 8:17:40 AM