YOU GOT TO READ THIS, IT SAYS IT ALL. If you don't read the letter at least go down to the bottom of the page and read the petition.



Subject: David J. Stoddard, U.S.Border Patrol RET. (This letter was sent to Senator Frist from a retired border patrol agent)

http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=34286




Now I ask you to consider this petition to Congress,



A friend made a petition to Congress against illegal aliens. I ask that you please view it and if you agree with it please sign it and pass it on. If you don't agree with it please don't sign it and still pass it on. Petitions don't sign themselves; it requires active participation by you passing it on. Please also contact your Congressman and inform them of the petition and your feelings about illegal aliens.



~Americans First, Case Against Illegal Aliens

http://www.petitiononline.com/AF001/petition.html



Thank you for your support and participation,

5/16/2006 10:48:23 PM

I can't think of a single instance in the history of the Internet when an online petition has failed.

5/16/2006 10:51:59 PM

This actually pleases me immensely.

The fact that you're down to using an internet petition is an excellent sign that your defeat is imminent.

5/16/2006 10:55:03 PM

thanks for the support

5/16/2006 10:55:08 PM

Where the fuck are the real aliens? When the martians come, I expect a hardcore identity crisis among the greater latino population

5/16/2006 11:03:05 PM

Let's just address this wanker's points, one at a time, shall we?

1) Almost none of this point matters at all, until you get to the part out them not paying for their benefits. You might try to remember that the reason they don't pay is that doing so would get them identified and kicked out of the country. You have effectively made it illegal for aliens to pay taxes.

2) True, at the right price Americans are willing to do any job. For all your concern about the economy, I wonder if you'd given any thought to what would happen if most of the low-end jobs in America suddenly jumped in price by 50%. My guess is that fewer people would get hired, period.

3) You mention the 20 billion flowing out of the country to Mexico, but conveniently forget the some 50 billion that some studies estimate to be the contribution of illegal aliens to the native economy. And the fact that they took risks to get here doesn't do a lot to help your side, far as I can see -- a person who's willing to endanger himself and his family to such an extent isn't reckless, they're desperate for a better life.

4) Almost entirely irrelevant.

5) The nation was founded by legal immigrants? Wow. I bet the Indians would be surprised to hear that.

6) We do accept a lot of immigrants, because we can safely do so. We can safely admit more. And tell me, how easy -- how possible -- is it for the average Hispanic to get in here legally?

7) I'm not sure how this matters. Nobody anywhere is saying, "Let them in so they can vote with us!"

8) You mention WWI -- when Mexico was invited to join an alliance with Germany with an attractive offer, and decline. You mention WWII -- when Mexico was an American ally. You mention their slight Soviet leaning in the Cold War. India was the same way. Why no petition to stop being buddies with India? And we did steal California, Texas, etc. from Mexico, by any possible definition of the word "steal."

9) Here we go again with, "Letting in poor people will make America poor." You'll remember how New York's economy collapsed with the Irish and the Italians.

10) There isn't a labor shortage in the sense that there are unfilled jobs, but there is a labor shortage in the sense that, for its geographical size and economic power, America has a lot fewer people to take jobs than it could comfortably accomodate.

11) It's racist because you only seem to bitch about Mexico. When someone mentions thoroughly caucasian Canada's border, you say, "Well, it's not really a big deal." It's because you don't talk about poor white people ruining the economy. It's because you fabricate all your lies, or readily cling to someone else's lies, because you're so damn desperate to keep the brown people out. It's because you act like learning Spanish is so far beneath you as to be laughable.

Yes, there will be a reckoning, at which you will be swept into the dust bin of history and lovers of freedom will triumph yet again.

5/16/2006 11:17:31 PM

Quote :

"Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship"

Wrong

Quote :

"There are no jobs that Americans won't do."

Stupendously wrong

Quote :

"Every person who illegally entered this nation left a home."

Every person who illegally legally entered this nation left a home.

Quote :

"Illegal aliens are NOT critical to the economy."

Dumbass

Quote :

"This is NOT an immigrant nation."

Dumbass

Quote :

"The United States is welcoming to legal immigrants. Illegal aliens are not immigrants by definition. The U.S. accepts more lawful immigrants every year than the rest of the world combined."

1) ?
2) http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=immigrant
3) moot point

Quote :

"There is no such thing as the "Hispanic vote"."

Yeah, just like there's no such thing as a xenophobic dumbass vote.

Quote :

"Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I Mexico allowed German Spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the U.S. During World War II Mexico allowed the Axis powers to spy on the U.S. from Mexico. During the Cold War Mexico allowed spies hostile to the U.S. to operate freely. The attack on the Twin Towers in 2001 was cheered and applauded all across Mexico. Today Mexican school children are taught that the U.S. stole California, Arizona, new Mexico and Texas. If you don't believe it, check out some Mexican textbooks written for their schoolchildren."

1) I honestly don't know much about the spies issue. I do know they cooperated with the U.S. in both wars. Given this dude's assertions so far, I'll assume these accusations to be inflated or completely false.
2) Cheers accross Mexico?! wtf dude?
3) We pretty much did steal it from them. Unless of course purposefully starting a war with the intent of taking their land, then doing so doesn't constitute theft.

Quote :

"then let's allow those one billion to come to America and we'll turn the USA into a Third World nation overnight."

slippery slope

Quote :

"There is a labor shortage in this country. This is a lie."

See #2

Quote :

"What is racist about wanting secure borders and a secure America? What is racist about not wanting people to sneak into America and steal benefits we have set aside for legal aliens, senior citizens, children and other legal residents? What is it about race that entitles people to violate our laws, steal identities, and take the American Dream without paying the price?"

5/16/2006 11:23:08 PM

^^ Instead of wasting your energy pointing out what you perceive to be flaws in this petition, why don't you go make a difference? people have already said this petition will fail- i'd like to know how your "bitching" (as you so eloquently put another groups statements of beliefs) is going to make any difference on this forum. go make your own petition stating whatever you believe, but dont bash other people who take the high road to make changes in this country legally (which is more than can be said for illegal immigrants), ok? I do believe, Mr Lover of Freedom, that it is my right to say what I believe, and it is Everybody's right to make a petition if they choose to. And yes you have the right to "bitch" if you want, but try to be productive about it.

^ if you have some valid points you'd like to discuss, feel free. dont sit on your ass and call others dumbasses.




i am sooo glad that people seeking a higher education are able to discuss a serious subject and their views as adults, without resorting to petty name calling and illogical disputes.

[Edited on May 16, 2006 at 11:36 PM. Reason : .]

5/16/2006 11:30:32 PM

Quote :

"aea: ^ if you have some valid points you'd like to discuss, feel free."

Actually, guys, don't waste your time. If you bring up "valid points", apparently this is the response you'll get:

Quote :

"aea: go make your own petition stating whatever you believe, but dont bash another group of people's opinions, ok?"

^Hey, dude, why don't you send me drafts of your posts for editing before you post them? You know, that way we could skip the step where you have to go back and edit your messages to delete shit I just quoted you on.

[Edited on May 16, 2006 at 11:40 PM. Reason : sss]

5/16/2006 11:34:39 PM

Quote :

"boonedocks: Wrong "

why?

Quote :

"boonedocks: Stupendously wrong "

why?

Quote :

"boonedocks: Dumbass "

great way to present a valid point

Quote :

"boonedocks: Dumbass "

again, great way to present a valid point

must i continue?

5/16/2006 11:40:09 PM

None of your/the petition's points were valid. They've been proven retarded time and again and deserve nothing more elaborate than "dumbass."

Dumbass.

5/16/2006 11:41:02 PM

again, great response. you have yet to give any proof of what you are saying. and this petition was composed and signed originally by men and women in our armed services, so i'd appreciate less of the "dumbass" remarks, and more discussion on ideas. again, so glad to see you all can handle yourselfs as adults when it comes to serious issues in our country.


\/ again with the great responses. you are an amazing patriot, you know that?

[Edited on May 16, 2006 at 11:47 PM. Reason : some fool]

5/16/2006 11:43:12 PM

well if soldiers signed it...

5/16/2006 11:44:38 PM

We are not a nation of immigrants, after all only 99% of our population descends from people who immigrated here in the last three or four centuries.

5/16/2006 11:46:41 PM

I'm going to actually respond to this crap in a few minutes, then.

But seriously,



is all that's needed.

5/16/2006 11:48:43 PM

I just looked at the profile. She's a girl, so it's not like she knows anything about anything, anyway.

5/16/2006 11:53:12 PM

HEY GUYS, I SUPPORT HIGHER PRICES FOR LOWER PRODUCTIVITY. THAT WILL DO WONDERS FOR THE COUNTRY!

5/16/2006 11:57:19 PM

^^Hey now, the ladies can learn too.

Or they can just be so touchy and obnoxious that nobody cares to flame them anymore.



[Edited on May 16, 2006 at 11:57 PM. Reason : sss]

5/16/2006 11:57:19 PM

Does anyone actually have any sympathy for the rednecks and the poor blacks who are complaining about this shit? I sure as hell don't.

If you can't compete with a mexican who has no connections in america, no wealth, no resources, and a marginal mastery of english, you deserve everything that's coming to you. You don't actually deserve to be a citizen. I would rather trade a mexican for the whiners who won't compete.


Oh yeah, let's not forget all the racists who just hate seeing more and more mexicans in their communities.

[Edited on May 17, 2006 at 12:02 AM. Reason : sdfsdf]

5/17/2006 12:01:08 AM

DEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
TUKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
UR
JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBSSSSSSSS

5/17/2006 12:14:36 AM

Quote :

"Instead of wasting your energy pointing out what you perceive to be flaws in this petition, why don't you go make a difference?"

I am, in the capacity that I can do so at midnight on a Tuesday. I am attempting to draw you into a discussion with the hope of changing your position, but so far I'm having no luck because you didn't respond to any of the reasoned and serious comments I made. You chose instead to see the word "bitch" and then use it repeatedly. Good job.

I find it incredibly ironic that the person who is defending an online petition is telling someone else that they're "wasting their energy."

Quote :

"I do believe, Mr Lover of Freedom, that it is my right to say what I believe, and it is Everybody's right to make a petition if they choose to."

I don't recall in any way preventing you from making a position or saying what you believe. I never said that you couldn't shouldn't put out this petition because it was wrong or illegal to do so. I said you shouldn't put it out because it is inane and will serve only to get you and your cause mocked and derided.

Quote :

"resorting to petty name calling and illogical disputes."

Nobody's put out any "illogical disputes." They've occasionally oversimplified or glossed over logical ones.

And until someone is using name-calling as their sole response, getting mad about it is pointless. If I make an argument that makes sense and I decide to throw in a "son of a bitch" here or there, it doesn't hurt my argument.

5/17/2006 12:15:28 AM

1) He qualifies his statement with "generally," yet goes on to paint all illegal immigrants with a very broad and very cynical brush.

All the voices I've heard from the Histpanic community have been advocating paths to citizenship. A popular placard in the nation-wide protest marches was "I want to pay taxes." There's no evidence to the contrary-- except this guy's rather disgusting cynicism.

2) There really are jobs that we won't do. Processing cow manure for $16/hr + benefits isn't a job, it's make-believe. Processing the shit for $8/hr w/o benefits is a job that actually exists in reality. This is a job that immigrants will take because it will improve their family's well-being. Anti-immigrant domestic economic policy is just as misguided as protectionst foreign economic policy.

3) Again, this is the author being disgustingly cynical towards a group of people simply trying to improve their family's well-being.

This is where the racism really seeps through. I'm sure this author doesn't think this way about the waves of Eastern European immigrants pouring into our country. They're honest folk, afterall. But these Mex-e-cans-- they're just sapping us for all our worth.

4) This is laughable. See #2

5) We're a nation defined by immigrants, moreso than any other country in the world. If a nation of immigrants exists in the world, we're it.

6) http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=immigrant

7) It's really a moot point when discussing the policy and morality behind immigration, but for reals-- the Republicans just lost the one minority they had a chance with.

8)

Quote :

"1) I honestly don't know much about the spies issue. I do know they cooperated with the U.S. in both wars. Given this dude's assertions so far, I'll assume these accusations to be inflated or completely false. 2) Cheers accross Mexico?! wtf dude? 3) We pretty much did steal it from them. Unless of course purposefully starting a war with the intent of taking their land, then doing so doesn't constitute theft."

9) This is seriously a slippery slope argument, and a very childish one at that. Am I supposed to argue against it?

10) Like Grumpy said, we have a very, very strong demand for immigrant labor in the U.S. to fill certain jobs that Americans won't take. We do have a shortage in this area.

11) The whole thing reeks of it. This man makes totally baseless assumptions about people who have so far been ideal immigrants, save for the fact that xenophobic/protectionist/racist people like him won't let them immigrate legally.

He calls hard-working, moral, family-centered people "third world agitators and thieves" for no reason that wouldn't apply to the tens of thousands of other ethnic groups that illegally immigrate to the U.S., and frankly, he and others like him shame me as an American.

5/17/2006 12:33:03 AM

Quote :

" Americans First, Case against Illegal Aliens Petition 138 Total Signatures "

LOL LOL LOL LOL

5/17/2006 1:18:20 AM

Quote :

"2) True, at the right price Americans are willing to do any job. For all your concern about the economy, I wonder if you'd given any thought to what would happen if most of the low-end jobs in America suddenly jumped in price by 50%. My guess is that fewer people would get hired, period."

and yet you don't think that'd be a problem when we grant blanket amnesty to these 14 million people

Quote :

"It's because you don't talk about poor white people ruining the economy."

actually it's because there aren't millions of people flooding across the Canadian border. squeaky wheel, man... that and canada actually governs itself well, so it wouldn't be a horrible thing if Canadians came over here and gave us some of their values...

5/17/2006 1:37:08 AM

Quote :

"this petition was composed and signed originally by men and women in our armed services"

i find that hard to believe.

see, for one thing, to be in the US Armed Services requires a High School Diploma. Whoever wrote that obviously did not have a high school education.

for another thing, if people in the armed services wrote that, they would just through the fraternal channels be able to get at least 20,000 or so "signatures". Not the pitiful 138 that it has only received in a week.

finally, the first signer is "Vanessa Osborne" who is a well known Edomite, but has managed to infiltrate the Christian Identity Movement's Aryan Nations inner circle, due largely to her skill at giving blowjobs after removing her dentures.

5/17/2006 1:37:29 AM

Quote :

"and yet you don't think that'd be a problem when we grant blanket amnesty to these 14 million people"

It probably would be a problem, but it would be much less of one than the proposed alternative. Jumping from less-than-minimum-wage to the minimum wage proscribed by law is a smaller jump than the one between whatever illegals are getting and what "reguluhr amurrricuhns" would accept.

Quote :

"actually it's because there aren't millions of people flooding across the Canadian border."

I was not, with that particular quote, referring to Canada, I was referring to America's indigenous poor population, which I don't see any of you people trying to expel.

I mean, so many of the arguments you guys use to oppose illegals boil down to facts and figures, so it must not be about flighty ideas like rights. You want a strong economy without the problems of poverty. So why not expel all the poor? Oh, that's right, theys wuz born here like good God-fearin' white folk.

5/17/2006 1:56:29 AM

because the poor in amurca actually understand and respect the amurcan system, Grumpy. There's a reason Mexico is a shitter: its people are used to a corrupt and useless government. bring millions of them into the US, and they'll expect the same thing.

I don't mind millions of them coming in if they at least learn about our country and our government and shit. you know, the same thing the immigrants 20-30-90 years ago did to become citizens.

but they don't. they just walk across the border, thinking they are entitled to something and with no regard for our laws. forgive me, Grumpy, but somehow I think that might be why Mexico is the shitter it is...

AND, i have a huge problem with a country making its economic policy to be breaking the laws of other nations, instead of fixing its own fucking mess

5/17/2006 2:03:03 AM

You people really, truly do believe that Mexicans are somehow different from the rest of humanity.

You don't think the government down there is trying to put things together? You think that the President and the Congress and everything on down to the mayor of Baroyeca just wants to line their own pockets? Do you think that the American government was always above and beyond corruption? Do you think it is now?

You act like taking a country from poverty to prosperity is something that can be done overnight. And if you don't think that, you apparently think it's OK to tell the little guys, "Tough luck" in the interim.

What makes you think that illegals violate our immigration laws just because they're used to breaking laws, and not because they're just that desperate? You think that we're so much more honorable that if things ever got really bad for us, we wouldn't do the same? I'll take a bunch of people who display their outrage by swimming across a river and working hard over those who do it by picking up guns any day of the week.

You say illegals "expect the same thing" from the US government. If they did, why would they come here? You think they can't see a system that works and a system that doesn't work, compare the two, and figure out which one is preferable? Where are these Mexicans trying to bribe cops left and right?

Where's the evidence that they don't try to learn about the country? And where have I said that they shouldn't be subjected to the same citizenship tests as any other immigrant?

And don't try to just say "entitlement" like it's a worse word than "fuck." People -- all people -- are entitled to some things, not least being the right to live in a free and secure nation.

5/17/2006 3:19:48 AM

Quote :

"8. Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I Mexico allowed German Spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the U.S."

Is this man seriously using the ZIMMERMAN TELEGRAPH as a reason why we should treat Mexico as an ENEMY?

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
AHOHOHOHOHOHOHJOHHOOHOHOHOHOAHAHAHAHHA

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HHOOOOOOOOOOOAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

I didnt know people still believed that hoax! Then again, some people still believe in the protocols of zion too...

So tell me, 18 year-old female from Charlotte who hates hispanics: why do you want these things to occur? the logical answer is to have immigrants pay taxes for the services they use, and leave it at that. they have a right to work, they have a right to live here, they have a right to organize for better conditions, and they have a right to be free, based on general universal ideas of freedom and human rights. Why do you want them gone or arrested? What have they done to you that cannot be corrected by having them pay for the services they use?

NOTHING!

5/17/2006 2:23:47 PM

this petition is about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. not mexicans, not canadians, not europeans, not asians, and for the love of God not about legal immigrants. Plain and simple, they are here ILLEGALLY.

And thank all of you who have resorted to calling me a racist, insulting the servicemen and women of this great country, insulting my sister!!, and totally missing the whole point of this thread. again, NONE of this is racially based, and id appreciate it if yall could stop calling me a racist over this.

Immigration reform is a hot topic in politics right, and my attempt to have a civil discussion about it has clearly failed. You have all proven yourself so utterly incapable of a conversation without name-calling and emotional biases, that i regret even trying to begin with.


and thanks to arronburro- i think you are the only person who posted something on here that wasnt a personal attack

5/18/2006 10:46:51 AM

You're right, the petition isn't necessarily racist. It's just xenophobic.

The article, on the other hand, aside from being moronic--which, I suppose, the petition is, as well--is, if not racist, at least filled with hatred and disdain, along with factual errors.

[Edited on May 18, 2006 at 10:57 AM. Reason : \]

5/18/2006 10:54:22 AM

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS.

5/18/2006 1:16:56 PM

Im suprised that many places in supposedly liberal Europe are having a strong anti immigrant backlash

5/18/2006 1:19:32 PM

aea, I haven't called you a racist. I've tried to discuss, but you have yet to respond to a single point I've made.

Quote :

"this petition is about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. not mexicans"

Really? Because the word "Mexicans" appears twelve times in that little letter the guy wrote. In the introduction, he explicitly says he is talking about "particularly illegal Mexican, Salvadorian, Guatemalan and Honduran aliens." One of his 11 points is exclusively about how Mexico is not our friend. You sure it's not about Mexicans?

Quote :

" And thank all of you who have resorted to calling me a racist, insulting the servicemen and women of this great country, insulting my sister!!"

I'm confused about how calling you and a handful of alleged servicemen is tantamount to insulting the entire US military. You are aware that someone in the service is just as likely to be a total bastard as a civilian, right?

5/18/2006 1:20:55 PM

Newsflash: Not everybody agrees w/ kicking out the illegals, forcing people to speak English, rewarding those who catch illegals, etc. They may agree with reforming the current system, but more than likely they don't agree with you. It's not suprising that the one person you complement is the one person that agrees with you. You might think that there's this massive "silent majority" who is with you on this issue, and as long as you avoid hippies and communists you will find allies. Guess what? You are wrong.

Also: take a US history class. The letter you posted contains a grievous error in historical analysis. The Mexico-Germany relation was a rumor during war and was never proven.

I'm suprised he doesnt use Pancho Villa as a reason to get rid of illegals. Oh, and if its not a Mexico issue, why does he even bring up those Mexico-Germany rumors? It's obviously aimed at creating animosity at Mexico.

Basically, what youre saying is you wan't "discussion", but when someone point out an objection, flaw, or (heaven forbid!) calls you a name, you retaliate with the same attack, acting like youre the only one that has it together here. you have a lot to learn about forum discussions.

And your petition is whack, and that is my opinion. I guess my using that word makes me a dumbass now....a dumbass who'll probably get his PhD in the coming few years...

5/18/2006 5:14:12 PM

aea, are you still here?

haven't you got the hint yet?

okay, ill spell it out for you:

take your lunatic petition back to your Aryan Nation / Christian Identity Movement support group where you and the rest of your backwoods, bornagain, biblethumping, racist retards can circle jerk each other about how "we all hate servicemen."

FYI I'm ex-military (Gulf I), my brother is ex-82nd Airborne, my father is a Vietnam-era vet, my grandfather is WWII vet, and I can show direct family line of soldiers in every war all the way back to the American Revolution.

So, on behalf of all of them, as well as the tens of thousands of other patriotic vets, let me extend to you a hearty and wholesome "fuck off, you racist bitch"

5/18/2006 5:35:36 PM

Quote :

"You don't think the government down there is trying to put things together?"

no, I don't. they are just telling people to break our laws and that will fix everything.

Quote :

"You act like taking a country from poverty to prosperity is something that can be done overnight."

Mexico has been a shitter for a hell of a lot longer than one fucking night.

Quote :

"What makes you think that illegals violate our immigration laws just because they're used to breaking laws, and not because they're just that desperate?"

strawman.

Quote :

"You say illegals "expect the same thing" from the US government."

strawman.

Quote :

"Where's the evidence that they don't try to learn about the country?"

where's the evidence that they DO? Were there italian services offered by the US government 100 years ago? Were there russian services offered by the US government 100 years ago? These people don't even try to learn our fucking LANGUAGE. How the fuck can you say they are trying to learn about our fucking COUNTRY?

Quote :

"People -- all people -- are entitled to some things, not least being the right to live in a free and secure nation."

That's great. Try knocking on the god damned door before you come in, though.

Quote :

"they have a right to live here"

no they don't, and that's the WHOLE FUCKING POINT. The US FUCKING GOVERNMENT determines who has the right to be here via it's own fucking laws, dipshit.

[Edited on May 18, 2006 at 9:47 PM. Reason : ]

5/18/2006 9:46:38 PM

GrumpyGOP's debate skills become more impressive with each passing day, especially when exercised against such a weak and simple-minded opponent.

5/18/2006 10:11:56 PM

Quote :

"they are just telling people to break our laws and that will fix everything."

Is that all they're doing?

Quote :

"Mexico has been a shitter for a hell of a lot longer than one fucking night."

This statement has the distinction of being true and pointless. Even if all Mexico's government is and has always been and always will be corrupt, that would be no reason to keep out immigrants. Since Mexico's problems are -- and I know this is hard for you to understand -- probably derived from a lot more factors than corruption, it's even less meaningful.

Quote :

"strawman"

Both times you say this, you are (pardon the pun) grasping for straws. And failing. Miserably.

In the second isntance, I was directly quoting you. You straight up do say that Mexican immigrants "expect the same thing" they got in Mexico in the US. How is that possibly strawmanning you?

In the first instance, I summed up your argument as being that illegals break the law to get in because they are accustomed to breaking laws with relative impunity anyway. I base this on the entirity of the first and third paragraphs of your firstp ost. Explain to me how I misinterpreted them, but do so without claiming that you were arguing something different and more sensible than what you were obviously, manifestly arguing at the time.

Quote :

"Were there italian services offered by the US government 100 years ago?"

How does this matter? We're trying to handle this wave of immigrants more efficiently than we did the last. What's your point?

Quote :

"These people don't even try to learn our fucking LANGUAGE."

Prove it.

How long does a person have to be in the country before they damn well better know English, incidently? How fluent do they have to be? Even if every immigrant in the country was functionally able to speak English, it would still be best to have certain important services provided in native languages, just to avoid confusion. I speak Spanish well enough that I could have this conversation with you in that language, but if I was ever signing a bank loan in Mexico, I'd kind of like to see it in English first. Or do they have to be so g-ddamn fluent that they could understand English perfectly as well as Spanish?

And, since we want everyone to understand English so fucking badly, why don't I see you in an uproar about the huge number of native people in this country who can't understand it well enough to comprehend a simple contract?

Quote :

"Try knocking on the god damned door before you come in, though."

I've never said they shouldn't knock. They should definitely have to go through a check and be recorded as entering the country. No, they should knock, but we shouldn't refuse to open.

Quote :

"The US FUCKING GOVERNMENT determines who has the right to be here via it's own fucking laws, dipshit. "

THE US FUCKING GOVERNMENT DOES NOT INVENT RIGHTS. IT IS NOT THE SOURCE FROM WHICH ALL RIGHTS FLOW. It might protect rights that it recognizes, but it does not create them. Or would you say that nobody before the founding of the Republic should have been able to speak freely?

5/18/2006 10:50:52 PM

touchy, touchy.

why the big fuss about illegal immigrants
why is there a different standard for the USA regarding illegal immigrants

im sure in other countries you have to be LEGAL to live there, so why the double standard?
Illegal aliens are exactly that. Illegal.

I sure as hell don't know the difficulties in securing a visa or green card, but....

there must be other ways to solve this issue

5/19/2006 12:21:27 AM

Quote :

"I sure as hell don't know the difficulties in securing a visa or green card, but...."

There's a fucking shocker.

It would have been essentially impossible for illegals to enter the country legally.

Quote :

"why is there a different standard for the USA regarding illegal immigrants"

There isn't. No country should restrict movement of the population to any extent greater than keeping out people who are demonstrable threats (terrorists, criminals, etc). As it happens, I have no particular reason to care about what a pack of racist xenophobes that the Dutch are, not when I live in a country that is just as bad.

5/19/2006 12:43:15 AM

I diddnt read this whole thread bc the majority of it is senseless goat shit and opinionated arguing. But diddnt Mexico say that they would "SUE" the U.S if any illegals were arrested, as a result from the recent guard action?

5/19/2006 1:50:52 AM

^Sue for what? I'd like to see that article to learn more about it. Right now it sounds like they are trying to sue the USA for enforcing it's own laws.

5/19/2006 8:22:16 AM

Quote :

"What is racist about wanting secure borders and a secure America? What is racist about not wanting people to sneak into America and steal benefits we have set aside for legal aliens, senior citizens, children and other legal residents? What is it about race that entitles people to violate our laws, steal identities, and take the American Dream without paying the price?"

I think pretty much everyone agrees that we need more secure borders. that really isn't the point of contention. Nobody wants to keep pouring money and benefits to illegal aliens, either. That's the whole point...people like me want to make it easier for people to immigrate legally so that they aren't doing it illegally and causing problems. The illegals who are already here...well, what do you want to do? Even if it was a good idea, you can't round them up. Good luck hitting them with a huge fine for be eligable for citizenship, too. Just cut your losses and offer them at least temporary legal resident status, with a path for citizenship.

Quote :

" go make your own petition stating whatever you believe, but dont bash another group of people's opinions, ok?""

There's nothing wrong with bashing someone else's opinion, particularly if it's wrong. It's kind of a necessary thing, actually.

Quote :

" and this petition was composed and signed originally by men and women in our armed services"

1. How does military service make you more qualified to speak on immigration issues? Military service is a good thing, and can sometimes give you insight into certain things, but it doesn't make you a policy expert on every issue.

and I'm in the Marines, for what it's worth.




otherwise, GrumpyGOP pretty much hit everything i wanted to respond to, except that I think that the Mexican government IS pretty worthy of blame...but I don't hold that against people who will make great Americans if we give them the opportunity.

5/19/2006 12:39:38 PM

wanting to stop the illegal immigration problem doesn't make someone racist. Fucking idiots.

5/19/2006 1:31:21 PM

No, it's pretty clear how racist it is for some.

Like this thread, for example.

5/19/2006 1:32:38 PM

its like saying once we eliminate the ability to come inthe ability to rape then maybe we'll be able to take care of illegal immigrantsrapists

it must suck to be a border patrol member

knowing that your job is basically worthless

5/19/2006 1:34:53 PM

^^well sure you can be for racism and kicking out the illegals. Or you can be NOT for racism and kicking out the illegals.

Your statement was pretty much stating the obvious man

5/19/2006 1:49:54 PM

or you could recognize that trying to kick out illegals is an exercise in futility

5/19/2006 1:56:06 PM

i agree it is...for all of them at least.

5/19/2006 1:59:16 PM