There's a false dichotomy in America's view of the Middle East that's worth addressing. Why is it that one can only care about Palestinian or Israeli civilian deaths? Why is it that, because of the actions of the IDF or Hamas, that I should justify the death of the innocents on either side of the border?

Many times when I speak up for innocent Palestinian civilians, I'm immediately labeled as anti-Israel; soon after, I'm bombarded with a laundry list of what Hamas does that's equally reprehensible. I don't see how it's relevant. If people think that Israeli civilians should not die because of the actions of the IDF, how are these people justified in thinking that Palestinian civilian deaths are justified by the atrocities of Hamas?

This is an important question to me. It seems that many people justify the deaths of Palestinian civilians simply because Hamas uses them as shields. In essence, it's "Hamas' fault." This is the justification Israel uses when it takes the easy way out -- by bulldozing the homes of families, by indiscriminately shooting into civilian areas, and by launching full mechanized assaults into Palestinian neighborhoods (any implication that these are "surgical" in any way is not supported through evidence, but rhetoric).

I clearly reject this dichotomy. In fact, I go further, because does it really matter that Hamas targets civilians, and that the IDF cares not if it affects civilians? Both show a gross, horrific lack of respect for human life. I'm inclined to say that the civilians on both sides are quite similar, as are the militants on both sides. To me it's sad that more people cannot recognize this, and have gone so far as to condone the slaughter of innocents.

The life of a Hamas leader is not worth the life of ten Palestinian civilians, or even one. It would certainly be worth the lives of Israeli soldiers. That's what militants do: they slug it out. Soldiers fight. If there is fighting to be done, soldiers should fight. If there is dying to be done as a result of that fighting, soldiers should die. Civilians should never be the recipient of military violence, and just because the violence involves millions of American dollars and a traditional standing army doesn't suggest or entail that it's not terrorism -- terrorism as black and ugly as anything Hamas has ever perpetuated against Israel.

10/6/2006 4:00:15 PM

I think there's a significant number of people on this board that hate both sides.

<------ for one.

10/6/2006 4:05:40 PM

I guess my attempted point here is that there aren't just two sides -- there's a third side that doesn't take part in the fighting, that takes the majority of the damage. Showing sympathy for members of this third side on either side of the border suddenly drops you into "Team A" or "Team B" for most people.

10/6/2006 4:07:49 PM

I wouldn't call Israeli civilians unwilling participants.

They're there by choice.

So sure, there's a Team C, but I'd say it's filled almost exclusively by Palistinian civililians and very few Israelis

[Edited on October 6, 2006 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2006 4:09:26 PM

Oh if it were only so cut and dried as don't kill the innocents this would be an easy thread.

10/6/2006 4:09:31 PM

israel never called for the destruction of any other group of people

israel doesnt sponsor summer camps where children learn to be terrorists

Israel will always be much more civilized than the PLO or Hamas terrorists

10/6/2006 4:10:59 PM

Yet they as a country achieve the exact same ends as the Palistinians.

10/6/2006 4:11:50 PM

^^^^ That might be true, but Israel's an established state by now. Unless we move every last one of them to New Jersey, do you honestly condone the death of babies in suicide bombings? They should have picked another vagina to slide out of!! One in New Jersey.

^^^ Innocents are going to die, but Israel goes overboard and obviously doesn't give a shit. They already reason that all civilian deaths in Gaza are the fault of Hamas, so they aren't being as careful as they should with OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.

[Edited on October 6, 2006 at 4:12 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2006 4:11:53 PM

Quote :

"israel never called for the destruction of any other group of people israel doesnt sponsor summer camps where children learn to be terrorists Israel will always be much more civilized than the PLO or Hamas terrorists"

How does this address the topic?

10/6/2006 4:12:37 PM

Quote :

"This is the justification Israel uses when it takes the easy way out -- by bulldozing the homes of families, by indiscriminately shooting into civilian areas, and by launching full mechanized assaults into Palestinian neighborhoods"

I totally see what you're saying about how people tend to take one side or the other. I would like to say though, that statements like the above surely don't indicate that you are able to rise above the temptation to make one side the bad guys.

I will admit that I have a pro-Israel bias in my thinking and that because of that, I find news stories that reinforce that to be especially memorable. That's human nature. I do acknowledge that, and have recently come around to trying to be more even keeled on the situation.

10/6/2006 4:13:48 PM

^^Well you said "Israel" and "Palistine" in the same sentence, so obviously it was a call to spout stupid crap onto the internet.

[Edited on October 6, 2006 at 4:14 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2006 4:14:21 PM

So Israel doesn't do those things? I'm just curious.

Because I have no problem admitting Hamas fires rockets with the intention of hitting Israeli civilians. Why should I be bothered admitting that? It's barbarous, just like the IDF. However, the problem in America isn't awareness of Israeli deaths, but awareness of Palestinian deaths.

[Edited on October 6, 2006 at 4:18 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2006 4:15:06 PM

^ Wow, this coming from you... I am shocked.

Bravo, though, for seeing the light.

One fucking Ukranian settler--whose family, might I add, has never set foot in the land for 2,000 years--dies of a Palestinian or Hezbollah rocket, and you will have his very personalized life story, along with the names and ages and hobbies of his children, and even his dogs, on US media outlets, along with the typical and dehumanizing "he leaves behind X very beautiful children". As if it is a greater loss because his children are beautiful. What if they are ugly? Then it is OK?

On the flip side, the Zionists fire a rocket from an F-16 or an Apache into an apartment building in a densely populated area just to kill one militant leader, and you WILL NOT find a mention of any details of the dozen civilians vaporized along with the militant, who, might I add, have been living in the area for 1,500 years.

And that's why Americans will keep on supporting Israel until the common people see the destruction it causes. When American mothers see it en masse someday in the future, then the American gov will have their population to reckon with.

[Edited on October 6, 2006 at 5:52 PM. Reason : ]

10/6/2006 5:50:20 PM

I dont think either side should get US support until they can stop attacks on civilians. I dont see either side stopping any time soon. If the Palestinian people continue to support Hamas, Hamas will continue to kill Israeli civilians. And the Israeli population will continue to support the killing of Palestinian civilians if it kills Hamas militants. This then pushes Palestinian civilians further torwards Hamas.

One side has to stop and show a commitment to the peace before we should support either of them.

10/6/2006 6:35:33 PM

Quote :

"^ Wow, this coming from you... I am shocked. Bravo, though, for seeing the light."

Eh I used to buy into the rhetoric, but, I began to put a human face on the problem and thus started to view it differently. I'm not really big into politics/world-affairs, so I got the condensed version of what was going on over there. Plus, you have to understand that unless you get interested and dig on your own in this country, you end up massively misinformed. Our major media outlets don't do a good job.

Quote :

"One fucking Ukranian settler--whose family, might I add, has never set foot in the land for 2,000 years--dies of a Palestinian or Hezbollah rocket, and you will have his very personalized life story, along with the names and ages and hobbies of his children, and even his dogs, on US media outlets, along with the typical and dehumanizing "he leaves behind X very beautiful children". As if it is a greater loss because his children are beautiful. What if they are ugly? Then it is OK?"

Did this actually happen? The thing that's funny about this sort of thing though is that Israel has killed a number of foreign nationals as well. All they have to do is lie or claim it was "unintentional" and they get a bye. I don't know of any other country that can take such a blatant dump on the United States and get away with it.

Quote :

"And that's why Americans will keep on supporting Israel until the common people see the destruction it causes. When American mothers see it en masse someday in the future, then the American gov will have their population to reckon with."

It's a combination of misinformation and really bad reasoning. You have to understand that a lot of people think that supporting Israel is an unmovable peg in this problem. They think that no matter what, they must, because of their religion. Therefore they have to come up with ways to rationalize it. It sucks, I agree.

10/6/2006 6:35:42 PM

^ also I have heard a number of ministers say that those who go against the Jews are doomed to fail.

10/6/2006 6:51:56 PM

Israel has a right to defend itself, and to attack those who attack them. Ultimately, they have the higher moral ground because they do not attack unless provoked. That doesn't give them free reign to kill as many innocent Palestinians as they want to, but it's naive to be to be so shocked and appalled at civilian casualties in a warzone.

Quote :

"Civilians should never be the recipient of military violence, and just because the violence involves millions of American dollars and a traditional standing army doesn't suggest or entail that it's not terrorism -- terrorism as black and ugly as anything Hamas has ever perpetuated against Israel."

The Israelis are not terrorists, they are heavy-handed in their defense tactics. If you cannot see discern difference between a country defending itself and terrorist organizations committed to the destruction of a sovereign state, then there is no point in arguing with you because you have already forfeited any hint of rationality on this subject.

[Edited on October 6, 2006 at 7:09 PM. Reason : 2]

10/6/2006 7:08:16 PM

Quote :

"Israel has a right to defend itself, and to attack those who attack them."

This does not address the issue.

Quote :

"Ultimately, they have the higher moral ground because they do not attack unless provoked."

It's over, Hamas! I have the high ground!

Quote :

"That doesn't give them free reign to kill as many innocent Palestinians as they want to, but it's naive to be to be so shocked and appalled at civilian casualties in a warzone."

Again, this does not address the issue.

Quote :

"The Israelis are not terrorists, they are heavy-handed in their defense tactics. If you cannot see discern difference between a country defending itself and terrorist organizations committed to the destruction of a sovereign state, then there is no point in arguing with you because you have already forfeited any hint of rationality on this subject."

Oh really? So because I view the consequences of both sides, rather than the "motives", I suddenly lose all rationality?

Being heavy handed versus those who actually attacked you is one thing. Being "heavy handed" and using that as an excuse to needlessly cause civilian deaths, on the other hand, is terrorism-with-tanks. Just because they roll in announced doesn't mean they're any more well-justified when civilians needlessly die. Just because they respond in self-defense or pre-emptive self-defense, it doesn't mean they're well-justified when civilians needlessly.

You should sit back, regroup, and try again -- this time, try and read the actual argument being presented. When you put the typical leftist argument into my mouth, you have already missed the point.

10/6/2006 7:20:55 PM

bump

10/9/2006 5:58:36 PM

We need to realize that Israel is going to get us deeper into to shit. This wont happen tho.

just thought i would add to your thread

10/9/2006 6:21:42 PM

Quote :

"I think there's a significant number of people on this board that hate both sides. <------ for one"

I can't wait til we cut every tie we have to the region and let the people over there sort it out

10/9/2006 7:22:14 PM

agreed. i wish i could build a glass wall like when i was a kid

10/9/2006 8:12:54 PM