Outsourcing our health care to third world countries?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061102/ap_on_he_me/outsourcing_health

11/2/2006 12:02:48 PM

This is fantastic news. The price of healthcare here will have to decrease now that it has some degree of substitutability.

Hooray!

11/2/2006 12:07:30 PM

I forgot to look at that from that respect, but I don't think that it will be enough of a factor to bring any meaning full reform to our health care system. I know if I needed heart surgery, I'm not going to some third world country to get it. The only real reason to go to a third world country is to get some sort of procedure that is considered illegal here in the states.

11/2/2006 12:55:22 PM

^ which is a good reason.

So, how is cheaper health-care going to bring about our demise? Last I checked, falling health-care costs would save us all a lot of $$$

11/2/2006 1:02:01 PM

a guy was on npr talking about a surgery that he received in india (a very expensive and important surgery). and not only was the cost on the order of a tenth of its price in the states, he said that it was by far the best service he has ever received at a hospital.

one big disadvantage to this sort of setup is that you can't get followups by the same doctors who did the surgery after you've left the country (at least not in person).

11/2/2006 1:03:24 PM

Why not? If you save 90% on a surgery that runs 100K, you can afford to fly back for followups.

11/2/2006 1:05:16 PM

i'm just saying, if there are complications a month down the road, it might not be feasible to take a 18 hr flight

11/2/2006 1:05:56 PM

I read about that about 6 months ago. The thing is, like 40% of US doctors went to med school outside the US.

11/2/2006 1:09:39 PM

Thats a good point, but there is a point where we have to reform our own system to sustainability. Whats next, we outsource our education systems and local government officials? We outsource our military defense? Is there going to be a point where we simply outsource all our basic functions because we are unwilling to get ourselves back under control? We have already lost a great deal of our manufacturing infrastructure, are we becoming a nation that does nothing but consume without producing anything?

11/2/2006 1:11:50 PM

Quote :

"simply outsource all our basic functions because we are unwilling to get ourselves back under control?"

We outsource because we don't have a competitive advantage at it, not because we are out of control.

And we're moving towards a service economy. We aren't outsourcing our education system, other countries are outsourcing it to us. Its one of our chief exports. Financial services is another area in which we have a competitive advantage.

Also, you wondering if we're going to move into an all-consumption, no-production is funny. a) it can't happen, obiously and b) if it could, it would be Utopia. That's the ideal of human existence.

11/2/2006 1:34:57 PM

While we spend more on health insurance than any other country (public and private combines), our health/mortality statistics are actually behind some third world countries.

11/2/2006 1:54:00 PM

^Not too many 3rd world countries, in reality.

But even still, a lot of that is because we are lazy, overfed bastards.

But we like it that way. If people enjoy their 70 years mightily, what's the big deal if they don't get 80 years?

11/2/2006 1:59:26 PM

^ here here.

11/2/2006 2:03:14 PM

if you've got $, you will receive unbelievably high quality healthcare in India

11/2/2006 2:11:44 PM

^^ hear, hear

11/2/2006 2:30:00 PM

I think it works because of the lack of accountability. If one of these overseas hospitals botches a procedure, then they don't have nearly the same level of legal recourse that they do here in the United States.

Of course, one could argue that it's this very elaborate legal recourse that makes practicing medicine in the United States so expensive to begin with... That, and the paperwork that handles medical payments (ie. the entire insurance machinery).

11/2/2006 3:27:14 PM

Quote :

"If one of these overseas hospitals botches a procedure, then they don't have nearly the same level of legal recourse that they do here in the United States."

RedGuard you are entirely correct. Our litigiousness is one of our biggest problems in America. It chokes the medical system, causes it to be EXTREMELY expensive, and makes being a Dr. less attractive.

Thank you John Edwards!

11/2/2006 4:35:27 PM

^find some stats on that and i'll believe it.

i've heard that claimed, but i've also heard that litigation costs pale in comparison to the differences in medication costs and and labor costs in america.

11/2/2006 4:42:32 PM

Hey, the US ARMY has been doing this for YEARS. My initial medical physicals were all done by Indian/Arab/Asian doctors... (that was 6 years ago)

Lucky for me, no probing from the Indian doctor. He was like "Okay, bend over and spred your cheeks,nevermind okay, you are good to go soldier" lol

[Edited on November 2, 2006 at 5:01 PM. Reason : .]

11/2/2006 4:58:20 PM

It still bothers me that so many of our jobs have no real substance now due to outsourcing. Instead of producing things the world needs, we're cleaning toilets and dealing with assholish customers in the service industry. It's more my own personal issue, not some broad problem among the populace, i suppose. "Made in the USA" still has a certain pride attached to it.

[Edited on November 2, 2006 at 5:48 PM. Reason : .]

11/2/2006 5:46:32 PM

Quote :

"Instead of producing things the world needs, we're cleaning toilets and dealing with assholish customers in the service industry."

Are you serious? You must be joking, you are attending a University yet have no idea what you are going to do when you graduate? Something tells me it will not be cleaning toilets and dealing with assholish customers (assholish bosses are a given in any field).

That said, the United States produces about twice as much industrial output today as it did in 1990, here is a graph to demonstrate just how wrong you are:

11/2/2006 6:38:10 PM

Quote :

"Are you serious? You must be joking, you are attending a University yet have no idea what you are going to do when you graduate? Something tells me it will not be cleaning toilets and dealing with assholish customers (assholish bosses are a given in any field)."

I dont have charts on file like you do. thanks for the typical condescending "if you studied this all like i do, youd know" post. i know we've lost a lot of our manufacturing jobs, and frankly that graph is a suprise to me. i mean, as far as manufacturing labor goes, you'd think we had much fewer manufacting jobs these days, but I guess I think of manufacturing more as actually making products for sale domestically and internationally (auto industry, steel, textiles, etc.).

I personally will be developing information, not solid products, which I guess counts as a product, but you can't exactly make it in a factory, give others jobs to make it, and place a "Made in the USA" label on it.

Whatever, I know I'm wrong and I wasn't trying to make any claims based on substatial fact, so youre wasting your time trying to prove me wrong on anything. Truth be told, you see "Made in the USA" a lot less these days.

If you're looking for an economic argument, know that everything I've learned about econ. so far has been learned from news articles and television (and this board), so you're barking up the wrong tree (ok, I am signed up to finally take EC 205 next semester). I'm content with letting the experts handle it. As long as my investments come out right and I can give a good amount of my money away to charity and retire to Monaco by 55, its all cool

[Edited on November 2, 2006 at 7:14 PM. Reason : .]

11/2/2006 7:09:09 PM

Why are we losing jobs?

-unions
-personal injury lawyers
-illegal immigrants

Which side of the political spectrum supports and nurtures all three?

11/2/2006 7:20:41 PM

^ ha

white people are loosing strawberry picking jobs like CRAZY!

[Edited on November 2, 2006 at 7:23 PM. Reason : !!!!!!!!!!!]

11/2/2006 7:22:29 PM

^^that personal injury lawyer TOOK MAH JARB!!!

11/2/2006 7:25:41 PM

unions have killed off manufacturing jobs LIKE CRAZY!!!

11/2/2006 7:47:28 PM

as you can see no one attacked your statement about Unions because the other two were beyond retarded.

11/2/2006 7:49:16 PM

fuck you unions for wanting a safe work environment.

11/2/2006 7:54:19 PM

No, fuck the unions for making America globally uncompetitive in most manufacturing industries.

See: The Auto Industry


Great job UAW, you guys make 80K with huge pensions, and it's almost impossible to get fired. Now good luck getting that same job for your kid with Ford and GM filing for bankruptcy in the next few years.

11/2/2006 8:41:05 PM

the unions didn't adjust for competition, unfortunately. they serve a good purpose (procuring health care and safe conditions), but they live in a selfish little vaccum when it comes to wages and pensions. there's no way we can compete with superior products at a lower price paying better wages to workers than i make w/ a BA.

with that said, part of the blame falls with management as well. the big 3 havent paid attention to the world market and are paying for it now. japan makes superior cars that people want to buy worldwide. we make cars geared toward joe bob jakes and leroy jackson in kentucky who buy cars for looks, not functionality like most consumers do.

Toyota puts out the Yaris, we put out the fucking PT Cruiser.

I personally have no sympathy for US auto makers in general. They shot themselves in the foot with shitty products and now they're paying for it on the world market.

[Edited on November 2, 2006 at 9:10 PM. Reason : .]

11/2/2006 9:07:11 PM

Quote :

"thanks for the typical condescending "if you studied this all like i do, youd know" post"

Sorry, I'm angry at Kris and took it out on you. My humblest apologies.

Quote :

"i know we've lost a lot of our manufacturing jobs, and frankly that graph is a suprise to me"

It is to most people, that's why I soo enjoy oportunities to bring it out. It turns out American manufacturing jobs are a victim of their own success. You see, as the graph demonstrates the United States is producing about twice as much industrial stuff as we did in 1990 (this only includes physical items such as "auto industry, steel, textiles, etc." and completely excludes developing information, such as your future job). However, you are correct that we have lost a LOT of our manufacturing jobs, a whole heaping shit-load of them. This may sound contradictory but it is not: it is just that American firms are now producing twice as much "stuff" with even fewer workers.

Also, I fixed your statement:
"japan makes superior cars [in Kentucky] that people want to buy worldwide."
Check it:
"Valenciennes was the first Toyota plant outside Japan to receive what the company calls its Global Body Line: a configuration of robots that can be programmed to build a number of different styles of vehicles without having to modify the entire factory. Today, that same body line is in Toyota's plants in Kentucky and Indiana, and has been installed in the pickup factory that Toyota will open next month in San Antonio."

Quote :

"Truth be told, you see "Made in the USA" a lot less these days"

This, too, is not entirely accurate. America has been open to foreign imports for decades, it was just more subdued. Today everything says "Made in China." When you were younger everything said "Made in Taiwan" (or Japan, or South Korea, etc). It is human nature to fall for the "Back in my day" philosophy, as so many have. America never made as much stuff as you believe it did (we stopped making Televisions decades ago). It is just that a really long time ago nothing came with a "Made in" tag. The heirlooms from your parents might have been made in Germany or even a Japanese sweatshop (a sight that hasn't existed in 40 years) and you'd never know. We are the first generation to inherit stuff with a darn tag on it. My father gave me his slide-rule from college and it was apparently manufactured in a South Vietnamese sweatshop.

11/2/2006 10:27:32 PM

true enough. i think a lot of the problem is the attention the media gives to the big 3, which makes it seem car manufacturing here in the states is on the downswing (car DESIGN in the states, however, is god-awful). i read an article about a mercedes factory in alabama recently that offered near-union wages w/o the union. it's just popped up in the past 10 years and is doing quite well.

[Edited on November 2, 2006 at 10:31 PM. Reason : .]

11/2/2006 10:31:07 PM

bottomline = This will not be our (U.S.) century....

11/2/2006 11:59:18 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

11/3/2006 12:24:49 AM

Things look pretty good in those charts, under Clinton. Why don't we just reinstitute his policies?

11/3/2006 12:51:43 AM

Because the surging tech sector had a lot more to do with our late '90's economic boom than anything Clinton did?

11/3/2006 1:12:57 AM

So how significant are things like unions, lawyers, and immigrants then?

11/3/2006 1:18:32 AM

very significant. all three are in the corner of the far left.

11/3/2006 1:22:55 AM

Kinda makes a single-payer system look kinda nice doesn't it.

11/3/2006 3:34:47 AM

Quote :

"the unions didn't adjust for competition, unfortunately. they serve a good purpose (procuring health care and safe conditions), but they live in a selfish little vaccum when it comes to wages and pensions. there's no way we can compete with superior products at a lower price paying better wages to workers than i make w/ a BA. "

This is an extremely accurate representation of what is wrong with Unions. Whereas most people deal with lower wages/benefits during tough times, the union is still bitching for more.

Also, I know this doesn't give any numbers and it is really an opinion piece more than anything, but I found this article on healthcare costs:
http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/economist/2760

Its actually a pretty damn good argument, and he puts litigation on the list as a contributing factor, but not as the main one. I remember seeing some of these before (especially the "nobody shops for value") but I am really impressed with 'Baumol's Disease.' I'll be picking up some of Baumol's work.

11/3/2006 7:48:06 AM

Quote :

"No, fuck the unions for making America globally uncompetitive in most manufacturing industries. See: The Auto Industry"

yes..... the auto industry in Germany is dying right now because of all their unions, right?

11/3/2006 7:58:05 AM

Quote :

"No, fuck the unions for making America globally uncompetitive in most manufacturing industries. See: The Auto Industry Great job UAW, you guys make 80K with huge pensions, and it's almost impossible to get fired. Now good luck getting that same job for your kid with Ford and GM filing for bankruptcy in the next few years."

And as add-on to point to the above post, notice this. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. are all opening new factories to build cars in the USA. Honda is opening a new plant in Southern Indiana I know of. Toyota has opened a new plant west of Indianapolis. My company (Cummins Diesel) is opening a new engine plant specifically for a new engine for one of the Big Three. These Japanese car manufacturers have to deal with the same issues that Ford and GM do, and they're making money. I have cousins that work for the Toyota plant west of Indianapolis, and they are definitely union, but they say that they enjoy it cause Toyota takes care of them, and Toyota still makes money.

So, why is it the Japanese take all these poisonous things and still make money on a manufacturing plant in the United States while Ford and GM can't? Could it be because Ford and GM were run into the ground by their executives, and the pensions and unions are just a popular excuse?

Unions have their problems, obviously. But to say they're 100% of the blame is pure bulls***.

[Edited on November 3, 2006 at 8:38 AM. Reason : /]

11/3/2006 8:35:48 AM

^^ Yes it is. Auto plants are already moving in droves out of Western Europe for cheap and controllable labor in Eastern Europe. With obvious exceptions, a few German Car Makers are legally prevented from supplying domestic sales via foreign production.

Flyin Ryan I'm affraid not. Look where the Japanese are locating their factories, Right to Work States. Of course, they may have unions but they were posibly set up by the company and sometimes include managers in the Union leadership. This is not a bad thing, better communication between the company and its work force is good and can make everyones life easier. Also, being in a Right to Work State engenders a better work ethic and calmer demeaner when it comes to negotiations.

Meanwhile, most North Eastern Unions are configured in an adversarial system, often with non-worker leadership and tend to lack transparency, which leads to corruption and makes it hard for the company to negotiate.

As such, I'm pretty sure GM is paying its union workers a bit more than Toyota is, especially when you point out the lower cost of living in the south. But this is not a problem, it is unreasonable for Automotive Workers to expect a salary far in excess of similarly skilled workers elsewhere in the same city.

[Edited on November 3, 2006 at 8:48 AM. Reason : .,.]

11/3/2006 8:37:06 AM

I love graphs so much! Here are some more for those among us interested to analyze!

Look at the bottom left. Today, in 2006, we are producing almost three times as much semiconductors as we did in 2002! In the Industrial Materials graph you can see Huricaine Katrina take a whack out of our energy production! In the non-Industrial Materials graph you can see the housing boom shoot up the supply of construction materials, only to level off, presumably waiting for Other Business production to catch up and more correctly justify the over investment.

[Edited on November 3, 2006 at 8:56 AM. Reason : .,.]

11/3/2006 8:50:32 AM

^ Indiana is not a right-to-work state and all three plants I detailed were in Indiana.

Companies are moving non-union labor overseas as well. My company prefers having any high-level engineering work given to an Indian joint venture engineering firm instead of developing engineering resources here in such work, and we are required to give them so many hours of work per year. Our engineers are not unionized. There are other companies doing the same thing as well with non-unionized labor, IT companies for example.

Also, our economy is on the cusp of a recession most likely starting in Q2 2007 according to some economists. The reason is that our economy has become dependent on credit and consumption instead of production.

Since you like charts so much, here you go:

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/bronson/2006/1019.html

11/3/2006 9:02:40 AM

The majority of foreign automaker plants in the US are not union. And none of those unions come close to having the kind of clout that UAW has.

Ford and GM are struggling mightily under the enormous health care and pension costs of an old, fat workforce.

11/3/2006 10:20:07 AM

The plants in Indiana are all UAW. Except for Auburn Gear, UAW has that state on lockdown.

11/3/2006 10:40:36 AM

Flying Ryan is making a convincing argument that the unions are not the problem.

Experimentally, the plants he mentions are like the control group, and the failing plants are like the experimental. If they both have unions, and one is succeeding and one is failing, then unions can't be the cause.

11/3/2006 11:52:18 AM

Like I said the unions are organized differently and with different objectives.

Being "Union" does not automatically make you uncompetitive. Just as companies are managed differently, so are unions. As a company's management can kill it, so can the management of a union.

Quote :

"Also, our economy is on the cusp of a recession most likely starting in Q2 2007 according to some economists. The reason is that our economy has become dependent on credit and consumption instead of production."

A recession may be coming, but it will not be because "our economy has become dependent on credit and consumption" which sounds a lot like drivel. If a recession comes it will be because of a poping housing bubble and resultant loss of consumer and investor confidence. If you feel you are overly dependent on credit then stop using your credit card, but at last measurement by the Federal Reserve household debt/asset ratios are close to their historical averages, so your neighbors are doing fine.

11/3/2006 1:21:57 PM

Quote :

"pensions and unions are just a popular excuse? Unions have their problems, obviously. But to say they're 100% of the blame is pure bulls***. "

I absolutely agree that the union isn't 100% of the problem, but if you look at their union-related costs, such as pension and in particular, healthcare for retired employees, you'll see that the majority of the bleeding comes from those wounds.

Honda, Toyota, etc. have much less cost associated with their unions precisely because they don't have a HUGE number of retired workers whom they promised to take care of. If they make the same promises that Ford and GM made, they will be feeling the exact same pinch, they'll just be waiting for it because they haven't retired that many workers in the US.

You guys have to look at where the losses are coming from, because it isn't current employees, it is retired ones. A fate similar to some other big disaster...Social Security anyone?

Quote :

"If they both have unions, and one is succeeding and one is failing, then unions can't be the cause. "

Your "experiment" doesn't take into account time. For instance, if I have been smoking for 1 year and my aunt with lung cancer smokes 55 years, can I assume that it wasn't the cigarettes, since I don't have cancer?
See my explanation above for why time makes 99.9% of the difference here.

[Edited on November 3, 2006 at 2:07 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2006 2:05:59 PM