http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/27/nyc.shooting.ap/index.html

Of course al sharpton had to step in, which almost discredits the case of those shot. But, nevertheless...

11/27/2006 9:34:54 AM

I'm really confused over this one.

I mean, if the official story

Quote :

"Kelly has said that police shot at the car after it drove forward and struck an undercover officer and an unmarked police minivan."

is correct, then I can see them thinking it was self defense.

But the stripper's story,

Quote :

""The minivan came around the corner and smashed into their car. And they (the police) jumped out shooting," Wright, 28, told the newspaper for Monday editions. "No 'stop.' No 'freeze.' No nothing.""

is correct, then they certainly are liable for these deaths. Problem is: that story is fucking retarded. Why would they do that?

And this:

Quote :

"According to Kelly, the groom was involved in a verbal dispute outside the club, and one of his friends referred to a gun. An undercover officer walked closely behind Bell and his friends as they headed for their car. As he walked toward the front of the vehicle, the car drove forward, striking the officer and minivan, Kelly said. The officer was apparently the first to open fire, Kelly said. He had served on the force for five years. One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines, Kelly said. "

certainly 31 bullets from one officer might constitute excessive use of force.

11/27/2006 9:46:46 AM

ITS BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK
AMIRITE

11/27/2006 10:04:12 AM

I wouldn't trust the stripper's statement.

But, what the police did was clearly technically wrong (I can't imagine why they would have to fire that many times on 3 people who had no gun), but whether or not they were out to just shoot some black people, or thought they were really defending the public is still in question, I think.

11/27/2006 11:46:51 AM

Oh, and in case it matters (which is shouldn't, but it does)

2 black officers, 1 hispanic, and 2 white officers (according to FoxNews + my memory from this morning, so only partially reliable)

11/27/2006 11:59:48 AM

alot of details in the case in this article

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,232079,00.html

looks like people were trying to get prostitutes and had mentioned guns to an undercover cop

if its true, especially trying to run down police officers, they had every right

Im tired of all these assinine leaders thinking that people can do no wrong

[Edited on November 27, 2006 at 1:51 PM. Reason : .]

11/27/2006 1:51:27 PM

Well, I'd certainly like to hear more about this case too. Are any other networks covering it or are they waiting until after people lose interest to mention that these guys were all felons too.

11/27/2006 2:04:39 PM

If the incident happend as police described it then the only problem is that they violated departmental policy by firing into a vehicle. Assuming their deadly force laws are similar to NC in that you can shoot to stop an imminent threat of death or serious injury, this was clearly justified. The officer was stuck by a car, and it was moving towards him again. I would call this an imminent threat. The number of shots fired is not important. Deadly force is deadly force, once it is authorized it's out as long as the threat exists. You can't over kill, or under kill someone. Deadly force is deadly force...

11/27/2006 11:22:06 PM

these dumb activists always mention the number of rounds fired as evidence for brutality, when in actuality it is 99.9% of the time totally meaningless. in a fire fight or life or death situation, its really fucking hard to tell if you are actually hitting anything or one in a fire fight. when your adrenaline is pumping and your fighting for your life, its hard to tell when your rounds are on target or effective. so, therefore, police are taught and trained to shoot until the threat stops. if that takes 50 rounds then it takes 50 rounds. plus, 5 officers shooting.....the rounds can add up quick.

also, please note i am not saying they should or should not have fired. i wasnt there, and i cant make that judgement....but they should get the benefit of the doubt. all i am saying is that the number of rounds fired doesnt mean jack shit, but i garuntee you a ton of morons are going to say it does.

[Edited on November 28, 2006 at 12:58 AM. Reason : .]

11/28/2006 12:54:31 AM

I do not see why the plain clothed officers in the unmarked vechicles could not have called in uniformed officers to intercept the suspects. That simple step could have saved lives.

I don't know how they expect people in public to know they are LEO's when they are not in uniform and are driving a mini van. The civilians may have thought the van that ran up on them out of no where was about to rob them or some shit.

These fucks were not conducting an investigation in to terrorism, they were trying to shut down a strip club, the stakes here did not justify taking actions that created that type of confusion.

11/28/2006 2:03:12 AM

WASTED BridgetSPK:

Quote :

"New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Monday that officers appeared to use excessive force when they fired 50 shots at an unarmed man just hours before his wedding."

[Edited on November 28, 2006 at 3:17 AM. Reason : need more articles n shit]

11/28/2006 3:16:36 AM

Quote :

"i garuntee you a ton of morons"

Quote :

"i garuntee you a ton of morons"

Quote :

"i garuntee you a ton of morons"

11/28/2006 3:30:44 AM

Quote :

"its hard to tell when your rounds are on target or effective."

I'm sure the yelling, grabbing of the body and falling to the ground makes it really hard to tell Also if you're paying that little attention to where your bullets are going in that crowded of an area, you definitely don't need to be shooting at all.

Also one officer fired 31 shots, and one VICTIM shot 11 times. I'm sure it easy to tell he'd been hit after lets say 5 or so. Also, while I can assume, are you a bigot? Thats a serious question, and I'd really like an answer. And in the event that you say no, would you be okay if your daughter grew up to marry a black man one day? Once again, serious question and I'd like to know the answer.

11/28/2006 9:10:45 AM

Quote :

"I'm sure the yelling, grabbing of the body and falling to the ground makes it really hard to tell Also if you're paying that little attention to where your bullets are going in that crowded of an area, you definitely don't need to be shooting at all. "

Most people I've talked to and seen interviewed that have been in a fire fight have said they usualy don't remember the first few rounds they fired, and some don't remember how many they used at all. When your brain goes into fight or flight mode it tends to stop worrying about things like counting the bullets or paying close attention to what your target is doing other than has it stopped moving. That's why when you're trained to fire a gun in combat, all the functions like reloading and clearing a jam are drilled to become instinctual.

Quote :

"Also one officer fired 31 shots, and one VICTIM shot 11 times. I'm sure it easy to tell he'd been hit after lets say 5 or so."

As was said, once deadly force was authorized, the number of rounds used is irellevant, deadly force has been authorized. It's one thing if they were standing over a dead body and mutilating it, but no accounts suggest that was the case.

Quote :

"I do not see why the plain clothed officers in the unmarked vechicles could not have called in uniformed officers to intercept the suspects. That simple step could have saved lives. "

It appears they thought these guys might have or might be getting a gun to bring back to the club. While I'm sure they did call for some uniformed cops I wouldn't wait around either.

11/28/2006 10:53:52 AM

^fire fight? To my knowledge no gun was ever in any of the suspects hands. So if that is the case its not as if they had bullets going past their heads, ducking for cover, and firing when the time was right. I could be wrong, and if it is proven that they did have a gun and fired back, please let me know and link me to it. Otherwise, it wasn't a fire fight, it was a massacre and the police in fact had plenty of time to think, and react accordingly.

11/28/2006 11:37:29 AM

It may not have been a firefight but a motor vehicle is certainly a deadly weapon...

11/28/2006 12:57:35 PM

shoot the tires

movie cops must be way smarter than real ones

11/28/2006 12:59:12 PM

Shooting out the tires won't do much good when a car is ramming you

11/28/2006 2:49:58 PM

he was Miami Coach Frank Haith's nephew

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2678515

11/28/2006 3:22:12 PM

Quote :

"^fire fight? To my knowledge no gun was ever in any of the suspects hands. So if that is the case its not as if they had bullets going past their heads, ducking for cover, and firing when the time was right. I could be wrong, and if it is proven that they did have a gun and fired back, please let me know and link me to it. Otherwise, it wasn't a fire fight, it was a massacre and the police in fact had plenty of time to think, and react accordingly."

As of yet, no, no gun was found, however, a few officers did think they were comming under fire, but that had to do with the confusion of the situation. More detail:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,232079,00.html

Quote :

" The New York Post reported new details of the events, including how the undercover cop at one point climbing onto the hood of Bell's car — his gun drawn and his police shield around his neck — screaming, "Police! Turn off your car! Let me see your hands!" according to sources who talked to some of the cops involved in the shooting. When Bell then tried to run down the plainclothes officer — twice — the cop began shooting, with some of his 11 bullets piercing the rear window of the man's Nissan Altima, the sources said. This left the cop's backup unit — which was just arriving on the scene amid shattering glass and the undercover's shouts of "He's got a gun!" — thinking they were being fired upon from inside the vehicle. That's when they returned fire with another 39 bullets. One 12-year veteran, a narcotics detective, pumped 31 bullets, authorities said. ... The sources recounted step-by-step how quickly things spiraled out of control after a dispute inside the club involving one of Bell's associates. According to the sources, two undercovers were at the strip joint as part of the NYPD's new Club Enforcement Initiative. The program was started after the July slaying of 18-year-old Jennifer Moore of New Jersey, who partied at a New York club before being abducted, raped and killed in a Weehawken, N.J., hotel. The undercovers, who usually worked in Manhattan, were on the last night of their two-month Queens detail to try to nail the Kalua and other clubs on such violations as drugs and underage prostitution. Both officers were unarmed inside the club and one officer had two drinks, Kelly said. "The officers were not given Breathalyzer tests," Kelly said. Department policy authorizes undercover officers to have two drinks, Kelly said. Inside the club, one of the plainclothes cops sat next to a woman he thought was a hooker and might proposition him, the sources told the Post. Suddenly, a burly man approached them and told the woman that he had heard she had gotten into a fight with a group of guys earlier in the club. It was unclear what it was over. The man said, "'Don't worry, baby, I got you covered,' and he takes her hand, and he rubs it across [the gun in] his waistband," a source said. "Then he tells her, 'That's what I'm here for.'" It's unclear how the man smuggled his weapon past the metal detector outside the club. He likely was a regular who knew the bouncer at the door and may have worked there part time, helping with security, the sources said. The undercover then went outside the club and radioed his backup to tell them there was a man inside with a gun. It was around 3:30 a.m. While the undercover was outside, the suspect came out along with the girl and others, since it was around closing time. The undercover watched as an argument erupted between Bell's group, which included three male friends and the large man with the gun, and four other men — with the woman in the middle of them, the sources said. The woman was overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's pals, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all," according to the sources. Around the same time, the undercover said he heard Bell's friend Joseph Guzman tell his buddies, "Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!" the sources said. The undercover, thinking there was about to be a drive-by shooting in front of the club involving Bell's group, followed Guzman, Bell and two others to their car. "It's getting hot! Something's going to happen! Something's going down!" the undercover radioed to his backup. He hurried to the front of Bell's Altima, which was parked on the side of a nearby street, and jumped in front of it. That's when the undercover put his right leg up on the hood of the Altima and began screaming that he was a cop, the sources said. The cop was leaning over the hood of the car to try to see the hands of the people inside and make sure they didn't have any guns, they said. But Bell floored the gas pedal and headed for the cop, the sources said, striking him and badly cutting his knee. One of the Altima's passengers — who possibly had a gun — jumped out of the back of the car, the sources said. Around the same time, an unmarked Toyota Camry driven by a plainclothes police lieutenant and another cop behind him pulled up, but overshot Bell's car. A police van with an officer and the narcotics detective then managed to block Bell's car in. Bell's Altima first struck the police van in the driver's desperate bid to escape, then backed up and struck the roll-down metal doors of a commercial building behind him. He then revved his car again toward the undercover — which prompted the cop to scream, "He's got a gun!" and start firing, according to the sources, with the bullets passing through Bell's car. "The undercover thought they had more than one gun. He thought they would do anything to get away. He was yelling, 'Let me see your hands!'" one source said. The other cops, thinking they were under attack, started firing at the car, too. "It is not the policy of the police department where a police officer can shoot at a car when the car is being used as a weapon, so at least in that case, it would appear that the policies of police department were broken, but we don't even know that because there were allegations of a gun," Bloomberg said. "We did not recover a weapon and we have been unable to so far to find people that were in the club where the two unarmed undercover officers were working." At one point, the detective thought his gun had jammed and so reloaded his magazine and emptied the clip again at the car, firing 31 bullets. Bell was killed, Guzman critically injured, and a third friend, Trent Benefield, was shot. They are expected to live. Benefield later told a friend from his hospital bed that he and his buddies didn't know the undercovers were cops. ... Some marijuana was later found near the Altima, and investigators believe that it may have been tossed out by the group before the gunfire. Two bullet casings also were recovered from the Altima, although cops said they do not believe they were from a police gun. "

Of course, that's all from an unidentified source so take that as you will.

Interactive timeline:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/27/nyregion/20061129_SHOOTING_GRAPHIC.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


That said, reading it over a bit, while I think the shooting by the UC and the number of rounds fired was justified, as it stands I also can see where Bell would have done what he did and I think the whole situation could have been handled much better. The most disturbing thing about all of this to me is not the number of rounds fired, but the number that missed. These guys I think could definately use more range time if the numbers in the nytimes article are correct. Fine muscle control may not be there during fight or flight, but over half your shots missing a car from close range is a bit more than just adrenaline fucking with your system.

11/28/2006 7:31:42 PM

I heard dude was a drug dealer in a rival part of town

1/30/2007 11:09:31 PM

Quote :

"Police are now conceding that Singletary was completely innocent. The Jacksonville sheriff describes him in this article as an "honest citizen trying to do good." Which means that two undercover officers trespassed onto Singletary's property. They then invited criminals onto his property to engage in criminal activity with them. Mr. Singletary, recognizing the trespassers as drug dealers, then properly demanded they leave. He brought a gun along to defend himself, not an unreasonable action, given the circumstances. For this, he was shot to death. Florida Governor Charlie Crist visited Jacksonville yesterday , and when asked about Singletary's death, referred to the "challenges" of keeping a community safe."

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=74693

1/31/2007 8:48:21 AM

^i was talking about the thing in new york from a couple months ago

1/31/2007 11:00:28 AM

??

1/31/2007 11:27:25 AM

the story that the original post in this thread was about (Even though the link is now dead)...the dude Sean Bell who was shot by police the day before his wedding or whenever up in New York?

1/31/2007 11:46:04 AM

who is LoneSnark talking about ? I'm confused

V k .

[Edited on January 31, 2007 at 11:57 AM. Reason : silly names]

1/31/2007 11:49:40 AM

I'm not sure

1/31/2007 11:54:58 AM

Hmm, follow the link. It's not that hard.

A guy in florida was shot by police while he was trying to keep drug dealers off his property. It is another example of possible police brutality and I didn't feel like starting yet another thread, so I mentioned it here.

[Edited on January 31, 2007 at 12:46 PM. Reason : .,.]

1/31/2007 12:45:30 PM

I think its insanity to ask the Police Commissioner to step down b/c of this. What a load of shit

1/31/2007 1:50:03 PM

Quote :

"That said, reading it over a bit, while I think the shooting by the UC and the number of rounds fired was justified, as it stands I also can see where Bell would have done what he did and I think the whole situation could have been handled much better."

Bullshit. How are we supposed to believe any of the UC's story when the facts don't line up with it.

They said they saw one man in the club with a gun and another man outside the club talking about getting his gun. But there were no guns found.

If this actually happened:

Quote :

"The man said, "'Don't worry, baby, I got you covered,' and he takes her hand, and he rubs it across [the gun in] his waistband," a source said. "Then he tells her, 'That's what I'm here for.'""

The dude was probably talking about his penis.

This detail is also interesting:

Quote :

"The woman was overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's pals, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all," according to the sources."

According to this source, they were able to glean that she was talking to all the men except for Bell. They're willing to talk shit (and possibly make lies up) about the men they tried to kill, but they have to respect the dead, the one they actually did kill.

Quote :

"Around the same time, the undercover said he heard Bell's friend Joseph Guzman tell his buddies, "Yo, get my gun! Get my gun! Let's get my gun from the car! Yeah, we're gonna f- - - him up!" the sources said."

He may have said he was gonna get his gun. But I doubt he said "from the car." Again, I think they're lying about that detail. And it's a crucial detail.

1/31/2007 2:07:24 PM

Quote :

"Bullshit. How are we supposed to believe any of the UC's story when the facts don't line up with it. They said they saw one man in the club with a gun and another man outside the club talking about getting his gun. But there were no guns found. "

it's obviously just a big government conspiracy ....


and they make it blatantly clear that bell is not the fat man with the gun. in the confusion the guy could have stashed it in a bush. thrown it on the roof. left etc. nothing further is mentioned about the big guy.

Quote :

"The woman was overheard saying to the men arguing with Bell's pals, "I'm not doing you all. I'll do one or two, but not all," according to the sources"

um ... all that shows is that she was arguing with a group of guys about not wanting to fuck all of them. they were probably being surly and disrespectful thus why bell (BELL WAS WITH HER) and the big guy were "protecting " her

this isn't a complicated situation ...

[Edited on January 31, 2007 at 2:54 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2007 2:51:32 PM

Quote :

"He may have said he was gonna get his gun. But I doubt he said "from the car." Again, I think they're lying about that detail. And it's a crucial detail."

It isn't that crucial of a detail. It isn't like he possibly mean "from the gun safe at my apartment, miles from here where it would make any difference at all"

1/31/2007 2:56:07 PM

why wouldnt he say get my gun out of my car ?


are you doubting the vernacular ?


get my gun out of the shubbery sounds like a much less likely senario

1/31/2007 3:00:16 PM

the police are now claiming there was a fourth mystery individual there, but have yet to locate him.

1/31/2007 3:03:14 PM

Sean Bell is from Rockaway Queens and was selling coke in Jamaica Queens and got hit

What the fuck kind of innocent man rolls 20 deep to a strip club dressed all fly? Dudes in the game

How they hell did he afford his wedding and all his fly gear if he was a fucking milk salesman?

granted all what i'm saying is hearsay but its hearsay from my boy from Queens who certainly has some questionable acquaintances

[Edited on January 31, 2007 at 3:21 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2007 3:17:45 PM

"questionable"

1/31/2007 4:11:41 PM

Quote :

"ssclark: it's obviously just a big government conspiracy .... "

Did I say that? No, I did not.

I think something went wrong, and now the police involved are making up details and adding little things to make themselves look better.

Quote :

"ssclark: and they make it blatantly clear that bell is not the fat man with the gun. in the confusion the guy could have stashed it in a bush. thrown it on the roof. left etc. nothing further is mentioned about the big guy."

No shit Bell and the big guy are two different people--I read the article, too. There was another man that the police claimed was talking about his gun. So that's at least 2 guns we're looking for here, but for some reason they're not to be found. As far as stashing it or getting rid of it, you best believe the police check on that kinda thing. If there were weapons there, they want to find them--cause then they're heros and not lame cops.

Quote :

"ssclark: um ... all that shows is that she was arguing with a group of guys about not wanting to fuck all of them. they were probably being surly and disrespectful thus why bell (BELL WAS WITH HER) and the big guy were "protecting " her this isn't a complicated situation ..."

I reread that part and understand now that she was arguing with the other men, not Bell and his friends, according to the sources.

Quote :

"bgmims: It isn't that crucial of a detail. It isn't like he possibly mean "from the gun safe at my apartment, miles from here where it would make any difference at all""

If they'd found a gun in any of the cars, it would make sense. Since they didn't, I believe that if he did say anything about a gun, he wasn't talking about a gun in the car and he didn't say "from the car." Unless he was just faking that he had a weapon in the car, which would be really, really silly and very hard for me to believe.

Quote :

"nutsmackr: the police are now claiming there was a fourth mystery individual there, but have yet to locate him."

There has to be. What TreeTwista is relaying to us makes sense, but where are the firearms? Is this guy so big that someone came in and got all the weapons after the fact to make him look wildly innocent?

^The more I hear about how guilty he is, the more I think the cops straight killed him.

[Edited on January 31, 2007 at 4:35 PM. Reason : sss]

1/31/2007 4:34:33 PM

also Bell apparently had some prior drug convictions...supposedly in his mugshots from those arrests he is wearing a bunch of nice clothes and jewelery...implying he was selling the drugs, not using them...again i have no written sources of any of this, but according to my boy if the cops didnt get him some stickup crews would...and apparently he had only been engaged to his fiance for like 2 weeks before the wedding day...supposedly he knew he had some enemies and wanted to snatch up his girl and get the hell outta dodge

[Edited on January 31, 2007 at 5:09 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2007 4:56:54 PM

why does it always have to involve a stripper

2/2/2007 1:06:35 AM