haha, hilarious

http://www.maltastar.com/pages/msFullArt.asp?an=9340

1/22/2007 7:10:59 PM

whatever happened to the good old days when we could just send a few helicopters of covert ops with a few suitcases of cash... and then bam! pesky pinko populist heads on a stick.

sigh

1/22/2007 8:11:49 PM

sigh, the good old days

1/22/2007 9:05:57 PM

Don't worry. Carl Weathers and Jesse Ventura will take care of him.

1/22/2007 9:09:34 PM

Democracy is such a bitch. I mean it's just bullshit that we can't pick their leaders for them.

1/22/2007 9:15:48 PM

i think we did try. the resulting government lasted, what, a few hours?

1/22/2007 9:34:25 PM

Our man clearly wasn't brutal enough. We can still take another shot at it.

1/22/2007 9:37:51 PM

Quote :

"whatever happened to the good old days when we could just send a few helicopters of covert ops with a few suitcases of cash... and then bam! pesky pinko populist heads on a stick. sigh "

yeah, i think we need some more US trained rapists and murderers

1/22/2007 10:05:08 PM

Quote :

"yeah, i think we need some more US trained rapists and murderers"

monroe doctrine, baby.

can i get a "woop woop"

1/22/2007 11:05:32 PM

wow, this turned into a liberal circle jerk real quick

1/22/2007 11:16:39 PM

I'd think that more than just liberals support democracy.

You realize that chavez was democratically elected, right? Like it or not, he's their president, and we shouldn't just assinate him because we don't like him.

1/22/2007 11:27:35 PM

why not?

it's how we do.



[Edited on January 22, 2007 at 11:34 PM. Reason : ]

1/22/2007 11:34:14 PM

^^ Right, and if the Majority voted to jump off a cliff, would you support that too?

It's more than just libertarians that condemn Democracy. Just look how well Democracy worked out for the Athenians.

[Edited on January 22, 2007 at 11:35 PM. Reason : ^]

1/22/2007 11:34:59 PM

Who said anything about assassinating him?

I just think its funny how every time a topic on South America comes up, every liberal on this forum who has even a cursory knowledge of our checkered foreign policy wants to chime in about the School of the Americas or Agusto Pinochet or some other way that we've fucked up in trying to spread capitalism to the region.

1/22/2007 11:36:07 PM

damn, Kris. he stuffed you.

the dreaded "what if everyone jumped off a cliff" argument.

i dont know how you can recover that.





[Edited on January 22, 2007 at 11:39 PM. Reason : ]

1/22/2007 11:37:29 PM

Quote :

"Who said anything about assassinating him? "

i did.

I think we learned our lessons from Iraq. we need to get back pre-dawn Delta Force raids. what we payin them guys for anyhow?

1/22/2007 11:39:39 PM

^^ yawn.
how about we try real democracy, instead of one that limits it to a tiny percentage of the population. and it would have worked out a lot better if people didnt keep trying to overthrow it (hello alcibades). ps- sparta didnt have a democracy, and they arent even really a city anymore.

^didnt pat robertson call for his assination? also, the evidence is pretty clear that the bush administration tried to overthrow him.

1/22/2007 11:40:34 PM

how dare you yawn at my sarcasm.

1/22/2007 11:43:53 PM

Quote :

"Right, and if the Majority voted to jump off a cliff, would you support that too?"

If some other group of people decide upon a system in which they vote to determine whether or not to jump off a cliff, I don't think it's any of my business what they decide upon.

Quote :

"It's more than just libertarians that condemn Democracy."

Sure, it's idiots too. (or are they one in the same?)

Quote :

"Just look how well Democracy worked out for the Athenians."

Early democracy failed, so what, you'd think it would take a while to get it right. Early flight experiements failed too, does that mean that all of our planes crash to the ground.

Your arguement is incredibly weak.

Quote :

"Who said anything about assassinating him?"

See second post in this thread.

[Edited on January 22, 2007 at 11:50 PM. Reason : ]

1/22/2007 11:50:10 PM

Quote :

"If some other group of people decide upon a system in which they vote to determine whether or not to jump off a cliff, I don't think it's any of my business what they decide upon."

Really? So, you cannot offer an opinion on what anyone else does as long as they did it in accordance with the system of voting they chose?

Nope, sorry, if a group of people decide to exterminate the Jews, for example, I don't care how they came to the decision: legislature, popular vote, monarch, dictator, Ouija board, whatever; it would be a bad decision and worthy of my public condemnation.

1/23/2007 12:28:34 AM

socialism = genocide?

1/23/2007 12:43:01 AM

meh.




[Edited on January 23, 2007 at 12:47 AM. Reason : ]

1/23/2007 12:46:30 AM

Quote :

"Really? So, you cannot offer an opinion on what anyone else does as long as they did it in accordance with the system of voting they chose?"

It has nothing to do with my opinion, we're talking about taking out a democratically elected leader who poses no threat to us, regardless of what I thought of him, I don't think we have any business imposing a leader we want upon them.

Quote :

"Nope, sorry, if a group of people decide to exterminate the Jews, for example, I don't care how they came to the decision: legislature, popular vote, monarch, dictator, Ouija board, whatever; it would be a bad decision and worthy of my public condemnation."

Now you're going to play the hitler card? These people have a constitution, and they have checks and balances.

1/23/2007 12:51:09 AM

and im also pretty sure they dont want to kill jews

1/23/2007 12:51:37 AM

No, I'm overstating Kris' position. He said we should not assasinate him because he was democratically elected. Personally, I think "he was elected" is an idiotic reason not to kill him. We should not kill him because it is not the place of our government to kill people without a trial, much less people outside our jurisdiction, democracy has nothing to do with it.

My genocide comment was in response to "If some other group of people decide upon a system in which they vote to determine whether or not to jump off a cliff, I don't think it's any of my business what they decide upon" which completely ignores what they decided and why they think they could decide that. So, holding to his template, it would be none of his business whatever I put in there as the decision: genocide, socialism, mass suicide, war.

Quote :

"Now you're going to play the hitler card? These people have a constitution, and they have checks and balances."

Again, so what? I don't care how the decisions were or were not made, just what was decided. And Chavez is making quite a few bad decisions nowadays. And, now that the legislature is anointing him dictator for 1.5 years he can make bad decisions with much greater frequency.

[Edited on January 23, 2007 at 12:55 AM. Reason : .,.]

1/23/2007 12:52:21 AM

Last I checked, democratic leaders didn't silence the opposing media and suspend the paliament in order to enact autocratic change.

Chavez should not be protected by any of my fellow true liberals or democrats (that's not the party, mind you) at this point.

[Edited on January 23, 2007 at 12:53 AM. Reason : .]

1/23/2007 12:53:01 AM

i dont really care what happens to him, i just dont want SOA fugitives everywhere

1/23/2007 1:00:07 AM

Same here.

My hope is that he will just bring it down on himself, and have the fortitude to step down as President, but I doubt that. Sigh.

1/23/2007 1:01:21 AM

Quote :

"We should not kill him because it is not the place of our government to kill people without a trial, much less people outside our jurisdiction, democracy has nothing to do with it. "

oh thats rich.

where have you been?

Quote :

"And Chavez is making quite a few bad decisions nowadays. "

bad for who?

bad how?

Quote :

"And, now that the legislature is anointing him dictator for 1.5 years he can make bad decisions with much greater frequency. "

hes gonna have to get in line behind Iran and N.Korea. or is it so bad, he gets to cut in front of them?



[Edited on January 23, 2007 at 1:09 AM. Reason : ]

1/23/2007 1:05:11 AM

Quote :

"My genocide comment was in response to "If some other group of people decide upon a system in which they vote to determine whether or not to jump off a cliff, I don't think it's any of my business what they decide upon" which completely ignores what they decided and why they think they could decide that. So, holding to his template, it would be none of his business whatever I put in there as the decision: genocide, socialism, mass suicide, war. "

logical fallacy

1/23/2007 1:08:59 AM

Quote :

"bad for who? bad how?"

1. The Venezuelan people, who we assume enjoy democracy and probably appreciate free speech, too.
2.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6277379.stm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6215815.stm

Please people, don't stick up for this fool just b/c he dislikes Bush and the FTAA.

[Edited on January 23, 2007 at 1:13 AM. Reason : .]

1/23/2007 1:12:57 AM

i hate commies and fascists equally

1/23/2007 1:19:20 AM

im not a big chavez fan. i think he's a loudmouth, and his potshots at bush are kind of weak.

but the bush administration is trying its damndest to control the spin about him so that it's all negative

which i suspect has everything to do with the threat he poses to nationalizing the nation's oil industry.

1/23/2007 1:27:45 AM

Quote :

"oh thats rich. where have you been?"

Don't worry, I'm a recent convert. From my various readings I have become convinced that you either let people fail and hope they learned their lesson or you interfere and they blame you for their failure and then proceed to make the same mistake again just out of spite.

So, if we killed Chavez we might save Venezuela for a few years but the next time elections are held the people would elect Chavez's brother. The fact is, Venezuela has been an above average run South American country for so long the people have forgotten why. So, if they refuse to remember history then they are doomed to repeat it, all we can hope to do is wisper "I told you so" after the shit hits the fan in the usual way: a bankrupt national government, a worthless currency, a backward economy, and huge foreign debts.

Hell, it's lesson time all around again: foreign banks should know better than to loan money to people such as Chavez. Let us just hope Hillary doesn't bail out whatever hedge fund loaned him the cash.

1/23/2007 1:27:52 AM

one thing you can say about Chavez, at least he puts his proposal to "rule by decree" through the legislature.

unlike Bush, who rules by decree via backdoor Executive Signing Statements

1/23/2007 1:31:56 AM

Quote :

"but the bush administration is trying its damndest to control the spin about him so that it's all negative"

Does Bush control Amnesty International now?

Quote :

"Covering events from January - December 2004 Political polarization continued to destabilize Venezuela. There were violent confrontations between supporters of the opposition and the security forces throughout the country. Scores of people were killed and injured. Hundreds more were detained amid allegations of excessive use of force and torture and ill-treatment. There were reports of unlawful killings of criminal suspects. Relatives and those who witnessed abuses were threatened and intimidated. The lack of independence of the judiciary remained a concern. Attempts were made to undermine the legitimacy of the work of human rights defenders."

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ven-summary-eng

1/23/2007 1:37:07 AM

Quote :

"You realize that chavez was democratically elected, right? Like it or not, he's their president, and we shouldn't just assinate him because we don't like him."

You sure he was "elected"??? Its debatable how honest the last two elections were.

Quote :

"Please people, don't stick up for this fool just b/c he dislikes Bush and the FTAA."

1/23/2007 2:33:49 AM

Quote :

"You realize that chavez was democratically elected, right?"

I actually know a few Venezuelans and their opinion is that most of the votes come from some degree of coercion. ie. You will lose your job if you don't vote for him.

1/23/2007 10:07:24 AM

Quote :

" You sure he was "elected"??? Its debatable how honest the last two elections were. "

florida recount

1/23/2007 12:40:50 PM

Quote :

"My genocide comment was in response to "If some other group of people decide upon a system in which they vote to determine whether or not to jump off a cliff, I don't think it's any of my business what they decide upon" which completely ignores what they decided and why they think they could decide that. So, holding to his template, it would be none of his business whatever I put in there as the decision: genocide, socialism, mass suicide, war."

You're substituting two very different things.

Quote :

"Last I checked, democratic leaders didn't silence the opposing media"

I think they have every right to do whatever the hell they want to people who commit treason. If I was leader, and they captured me, took over my government, and would have had me killed, I would have done much worse to them than he has.

Quote :

"http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6277379.stm"

He did this exact same thing in 2001. It's only for certain things, and it can be stopped by congress at any time.

Quote :

"You sure he was "elected"??? Its debatable how honest the last two elections were."

He has won pretty much every election by a landslide. He is very popular over there. These were honest elections, and people weren't coerced, you guys have no reason to think that except for someone's 'dave, juliet and the twins'-like source in venezuela.

1/23/2007 1:43:03 PM

So, Kris, what you meant to say was: "If some other group of people decide upon a system in which they vote to determine whether or not to jump off a cliff, I don't think it's any of my business what they decide upon, as long as they stick to jumping off a cliff, anything more severe such as genocide and I'll join LoneSnark in condemnation of their determination"

Quote :

"I think they have every right to do whatever the hell they want to people who commit treason. If I was leader, and they captured me, took over my government, and would have had me killed, I would have done much worse to them than he has."

Odd, so the people who run the TV-Station were the ones that revolted? Odd, I thought it was the people with guns that performed the coup, not some unarmed executives that never left their offices.

Quote :

"He did this exact same thing in 2001. It's only for certain things, and it can be stopped by congress at any time."

Which, of course, makes everything all right. Whatever congress wants is just because democracy is the only ideal. Civil Rights, Civil Society, all are irrelevant in the face of majority opinion.

1/23/2007 2:02:23 PM

Quote :

"So, Kris, what you meant to say was: "If some other group of people decide upon a system in which they vote to determine whether or not to jump off a cliff, I don't think it's any of my business what they decide upon, as long as they stick to jumping off a cliff, anything more severe such as genocide and I'll join LoneSnark in condemnation of their determination""

No, I was pointing out the fallacy in you assuming these two very different things are interchangable. It's like trying to swap killing in self defense and murder.

Quote :

"Odd, so the people who run the TV-Station were the ones that revolted? Odd, I thought it was the people with guns that performed the coup, not some unarmed executives that never left their offices."

Would you say bush is responsible for the iraq war? I mean he doesn't have a gun, and he doesn't leave his office unless it's to go to the texas ranch. Does this mean he is uninvolved?

Quote :

"Which, of course, makes everything all right. Whatever congress wants is just because democracy is the only ideal. Civil Rights, Civil Society, all are irrelevant in the face of majority opinion."

They are coupled with a constitution, to place some of the most basic constraints, which you like to keep exaggerating, but for most things, a complex form of democracy works best.
I'm sure you have some other idea which is far more hillarious, anarchy.

1/23/2007 4:24:58 PM

I don't even know what their constitution guarantees, so I really can't say. Typically, a constitution is granted by elected reps to the people, and then subject to amending with regards to democratic, parliamentary procedures agreed on by a multiparty parliament, something Venezuela hasnt had since the opposition party has been abstaining, which I really don't understand.

Idealy, rule lies with a constitution which guarantees civil rights. Say we had a referendum on Bush's Executive powers following 9/11, and a majority voted to give him the ability to move without the check of the legislature to fight terrorism. Would this be right, seeing as how it was enacted by a democratic majority?

Care to address the accusations by Amnesty of violent suppression of unrest in 2004?

[Edited on January 23, 2007 at 4:45 PM. Reason : .]

1/23/2007 4:42:14 PM

Quote :

"Say we had a referendum on Bush's Executive powers following 9/11, and a majority voted to give him the ability to move without the check of the legislature to fight terrorism. Would this be right, seeing as how it was enacted by a democratic majority?"

It would be ruled as unconstitutional by the supreme court. Didn't you guys learn checks and balances in middle school?

Quote :

"Care to address the accusations by Amnesty of violent suppression of unrest in 2004?"

They were completely wrong. It has since been proven that chavez had nothing to do with those snipers. And not only was the situation caused and exhaserbated by the private media companies, but it is very possible that the snipers worked for them as well.

I kind of thought if you were going to condemn him, you'd at least keep up with what's been going on there.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

It takes a while to load, but it should help explain things.

1/23/2007 5:10:52 PM

^seen it. what i'm talking about happened after 2002. i trust the RTE footage (hell, RTE is fairly conservative by European standards), but since the coup, he's been denying many rights to the citizens who oppose him in the name of preventing another coup. is that civil and democratic?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr530052004

There's quite a laundry list against him. Better get to work finding reasons why he did this that are within commonly accepted international statements on human rights.

There's quite a bit behind that other link I posted that you should probably get to work on, as well. Simply saying that these people weren't with the gov. and were sponsored by corporations will not cut it, unless you provide proof.

[Edited on January 23, 2007 at 5:26 PM. Reason : /]

1/23/2007 5:21:27 PM

Quote :

"No, I was pointing out the fallacy in you assuming these two very different things are interchangable. It's like trying to swap killing in self defense and murder."

Kris, stop dancing. All I wanted to hear you say was "Sorry, a Democracy can be just as easily criticized as any other form of government. My statement was merely directed at those hypocrites who worship at the altar of Democracy and then complain then they lose the election."

Quote :

"I'm sure you have some other idea which is far more hillarious, anarchy."

Anarchy is not my idea, but thanks for playing. My idea would be to have a government with conflicting zones of control and thus have ambition check ambition. You know, like we used to have in America before 1913.

[Edited on January 23, 2007 at 5:32 PM. Reason : .,.]

1/23/2007 5:28:26 PM

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005494

Quote :

"In the early hours of Monday, the Electoral Council's president (who had imposed a gag order on all exit polls until a full audit of the vote had been completed) issued a statement declaring that the computer votes had been tallied and that the government had won the referendum with 58% of the vote. The announcement came in a vacuum, without an audit, with no verification whatsoever from the international observers, and over the indignant protest of two of the five council members, who publicly questioned the result's transparency."

1/23/2007 5:39:08 PM

Quote :

"since the coup, he's been denying many rights to the citizens who oppose him in the name of preventing another coup. is that civil and democratic?"

Do you have evidence for that claim?

Quote :

"There's quite a laundry list against him. Better get to work finding reasons why he did this that are within commonly accepted international statements on human rights."

I read it and didn't really see anything that incriminating agianst him. I don't doubt that police may have used excessive force, but it would seem difficult to investigate in the midst of all the violence. Even when they are investigated amnesty seems to automatically assume it is false because the venezualean government was in charge of the investigation (who else would have investigated), furthermore much of the violence listed in that page are not even that of chavez's administration. Chavez's government certainly hasn't taken a policy of violence or opposition, which I believe is the issue.

Quote :

"Simply saying that these people weren't with the gov. and were sponsored by corporations will not cut it, unless you provide proof."

Why should I have to? AI didn't provide any proof other than referencing the Carter Center, which it seemed to think was a sham anyways.

Quote :

"Kris, stop dancing. All I wanted to hear you say was "Sorry, a Democracy can be just as easily criticized as any other form of government. My statement was merely directed at those hypocrites who worship at the altar of Democracy and then complain then they lose the election.""

You'd need to use a better arguement then. I think democracy is the best form of government we have right now, and I fully support it.

Quote :

"My idea would be to have a government with conflicting zones of control and thus have ambition check ambition. You know, like we used to have in America before 1913."

Almost as idealistic as anarchy, so I was close.

Quote :

"http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005494"

A political editorial in wall street journal, not the most reputable source.

1/23/2007 6:46:11 PM

Quote :

"Do you have evidence for that claim?"

I'd say shutting down the opposition media is a good place to start.

1/24/2007 12:38:08 AM

Didn't you know. Kris is Venezuelan and he knows all the ins and outs of what is going on down there.

1/24/2007 7:41:48 AM