SUCK. Telling me, the learning co-op, to cease and desist because the work is repetitive and should be done by a worker who takes all day to do ANYTHING.

#$%^& I'm pissed off.

2/15/2007 10:02:08 AM

Quote :

"Oh, I always wanted to be a Teamster. So lazy and surly"

2/15/2007 10:03:23 AM

Any system that creates a disincentive for hard work is shit.

And while there was a need for unionization once upon a time, the current state of affairs is ridiculous.

People wonder why american automakers can't compete.... I don't.

2/15/2007 10:16:27 AM

So I've paged my area's union worker about 30 minutes ago and no response .

Yea, that big Union, American Steel Workers or w/e, whenever they set up shop in a factory I believe the factory has always shut down eventually because of their actions.

Is this supposed to be in soap box?

2/15/2007 10:26:07 AM

nah, if this was in TSB, you'd get a bunch of myopic anti-corporation comments that defend the honor and dignity of unions. They've got such a distorted view of reality that it's almost funny.

2/15/2007 10:32:30 AM

The union's interests and the companies interests are pretty much at complete odds. If you had one without the other it would be disastrous. I don't mean to say that every company needs a union, I'm saying the threat of it is important. It works nicely in NC where we don't really have unions, but we enjoy the benefits.

But to say that unions are bad across the board is to ignore history.

2/15/2007 11:12:21 AM

Quote :

"But to say that unions typewriters are bad across the board is to ignore history."

Of course the threat of the power that unions hold was at one time necessary. Now, however, it's a corrupt waste of resources that rewards inefficiency and punishes innovation. I am working with a guy right now who is about 60 and a CPA, but because of the union regulations he's now a file clerk. Tell me how that's good for anyone.

2/15/2007 11:28:41 AM

There is certainly greed and corruption on both sides of the house, union and corporate management. Why is it that unions aren't necessary now? What changed?

2/15/2007 11:45:18 AM

^Look at the auto industry around the Great Lakes vs. that in the Southeast. The bloated union shops in Detroit are shutting down and moving overseas while new non-union factories keep popping up in SC, Alabama, etc. I think its funny that the workers in Detroit have the same fatheaded mentality as the obese corporate dinosaurs they criticize. But if they want to commit career suicide I guess its their perogative.

2/15/2007 11:57:45 AM

Government regulation, shifting popular ethics, and that the market is now to some extent (more than any time in our history as a nation, at least) driven by percieved corporate responsibility.

The workplace is different. Very few industries are still as dangerous as they used to be. Industry itself is much different than it was fifty years ago, as we move towards a service-heavy economy and away from production. There are a number of reasons.

2/15/2007 12:06:47 PM

An update to my union story:

The worker called me back about 11:34 (do the math on call back time) and I met with him about 12. We were about to start working when he said he had a meeting at 1pm. This project is very tedious with lots of data points so there was no way we were gonna get done. That and I haven't eaten anything all day, so I suggested we start after his meeting, which turned into 8 am tomorrow morning.

I think this was supposed to be done like Tuesday or yesterday, but it certainly doesn't help I couldn't come into work Monday due to sickness. This is making me look really good to my co-op manager. Its not the worker's fault he's pretty cool, just the system.

2/15/2007 12:10:51 PM

Quote :

"Look at the auto industry around the Great Lakes vs. that in the Southeast. The bloated union shops in Detroit are shutting down and moving overseas while new non-union factories keep popping up in SC, Alabama, etc. I think its funny that the workers in Detroit have the same fatheaded mentality as the obese corporate dinosaurs they criticize. But if they want to commit career suicide I guess its their perogative."

I don't deny that the union is making life difficult for US auto dinosaurs. However, blaming the union misses the point. The union doesn't have anything that management didn't give them. I blame management for getting them in this hole, and I blame the union for keeping them in it.

There are plenty of companies the US that have managed to keep things in balance with their unions. There is also plenty of country for the US automakers to build non-union plants in. I know Bridgestone has gone from being almost all union in the US to almost no union.

2/15/2007 12:14:30 PM

Quote :

"Government regulation, shifting popular ethics, and that the market is now to some extent (more than any time in our history as a nation, at least) driven by percieved corporate responsibility."

Do what??? I think the increasing margin between executive and worker pay shows a different trend.

Quote :

"The workplace is different. Very few industries are still as dangerous as they used to be. Industry itself is much different than it was fifty years ago, as we move towards a service-heavy economy and away from production. There are a number of reasons."

I'm don't think unions have much place in skilled jobs. However, in traditional unionized jobs (ie labor and manufacturing), I don't see how they are any less relevant.

Anyway, sounds like you have a crappy union (or maybe it's just this guy). What company is this and where?

[Edited on February 15, 2007 at 12:21 PM. Reason : ?]

2/15/2007 12:18:45 PM

Quote :

"Telling me, the learning co-op, to cease and desist because the work is repetitive and should be done by a worker who takes all day to do ANYTHING."

I think the idea is that the company can't save money by taking work away from one employee and give it to another who makes less per hour or use managers to share the work-load instead of hiring more workers

2/15/2007 12:31:01 PM

Distant Relatives of mine with NO college education, NO high school diploma were making $55,000 each working on the lines for GM. They recently lost their jobs and are shocked at how hard it is to find such a great paying job.

The simple fact is Unions are going far past reason with automakers. 20-30 years ago hell yeah I could see their need but it's the same as the NAACP. Their motives are lets see how far we can push it before it fails.

Just stupid IMHO

2/15/2007 12:43:37 PM

I believe that the increasing margin between a CEO's and clerk's salary only really serves to illustrate incresed reliance on decision making and responsibility at the top. I haven't seen any research confirming that this idea of an increasing margin is a trend, but I agree that it does appear to be. I'm not sure that this is an argument pro-unionization, though, because cutting a CEO's salary does not affect pressure up or down on worker's salaries, which is why the union is in place to begin with (salary floor).

And I can't believe that anyone thinks that workers are in a worse or even similar working environment as the century following the industrial revolution.

I'm in NYC. Our entire floor of clerks (central business office for a large Manhattan hospital) is unionized with 1199 Service Employees International Union. The bureaucracy is mind numbing. Fortunatly management is not allowed to join (keep in mind, however, that clerks are required to join to get a job).

2/15/2007 12:46:04 PM

Quote :

"There is certainly greed and corruption on both sides of the house, union and corporate management. Why is it that unions aren't necessary now? What changed?"

the dramatic increase in federal labor laws in the past 50 or so years has slowly taken the place of many of the functions that unions once served. Unions aren't totally useless, but organizing/operating as they used to (almost a watchdog role), are just not really necessary now.

2/15/2007 1:04:50 PM

Quote :

"The simple fact is Unions are going far past reason with automakers. "

The unions are looking out for the unions; they're going to try to get everything management is willing to give. They don't want to negotiate a contract and leave money on the table--how can you blame them? Instead of The unions are getting paid what?! I see it as Management agreed to pay them what?!

2/15/2007 1:04:57 PM

when the unions threaten strike, the management is left with little choice.

2/15/2007 1:11:13 PM

Quote :

"Management agreed to pay them what?!"

what's worse to the management, paying employees higher salary, or loss of business while the union workers are walking around outside on strike? I think it's ridiculous for blue collar workers to get paid white collar salaries.

2/15/2007 1:17:26 PM

Quote :

"Oh, I always wanted to be a Teamster. So lazy and surly"

ahahahaha

2/15/2007 1:18:00 PM

^^^Why? Union workers have bills to pay too; how long can the average person afford to go without a paycheck? If I owned a unionized company and had to choose between a strike or an unreasonable contract...let the bastards strike.

[Edited on February 15, 2007 at 1:21 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2007 1:21:14 PM

Management often can't realistically meet demands by striking unions as often pertaining to pay, since most reputable companies already pay their workers a decent amount and any increase messes with their budget schemes, not to mention lost productivity time from strikes.

2/15/2007 1:21:15 PM

^^ the individual workers do not have any choice here. If the union decides to strike, all union workers must comply whether they have bills to pay or not.

Obviously, their existence is reality, and it is what it is.

But I have nothing but contempt for Unions and union labor.

2/15/2007 1:25:42 PM

why exactly are you required to join a union to get a job?

2/15/2007 1:26:17 PM

closed shop, which is usually legal up north, not legal in many states, including nc.

2/15/2007 1:27:49 PM

forced unionization laws

2/15/2007 1:28:37 PM

that's bullshit.

2/15/2007 1:30:10 PM

agreed.

2/15/2007 1:31:50 PM

there are

closed shops: you have to join the union to get the job

union shops: you dont' have to be a member to get the job, but you have to join in a certain time frame.

Agency shops: you don't have to join to work, but regardless you have to pay union dues

open shop: don't have to be affiliated with a union to work there.

2/15/2007 1:31:54 PM

Quote :

"closed shops: you have to join the union to get the job"

In the defense of some states' laws, though, I feel like I heard that a worker can choose to have his pre-tax union dues payments sent to certain charities, instead of into the pockets of the gangsters running the union, which is better than nothing. Can anyone confirm?

(well, maybe... http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=3181)

[Edited on February 15, 2007 at 1:39 PM. Reason : Too lazy to go diving through legalese...]

2/15/2007 1:36:17 PM

There huge move to non-unionized work in the US has many unions running scared. They corner the market on the auto industry except with Toyota. That's why Toyota is so powerful and so strong. Unions have companies paying for insane... and I mean INSANE medical, retirement, and overall pay. I'm not saying the work isn't difficult or labor intensive. I'm not discredited how hard you may work... I'm just saying you are getting the equivalent to $75000 a year for doing a job a fucking 12 year old could.

The only reason that joe blow makes that much is the strong arm tactics that unions are using. The same goes for the NAACP. Toyota pays it's line an average of $35-$40k (I can't remember the specifics from the article from CNN). GM on average pays it's line worksrs 45-50k. If you're there for 10 years +... you can make upwards of $70k... for line work. LINE WORK!

Now the auto makers are failing and are forcing closings and unions are starting to feel the pressure from it's members. Many members want the unions to stfu. GM and Ford are both trying to open non unionized factories with all newer model factories. I wonder what will happen

To me it seems similar to how an ecomony works. It looks to be a depression for unions coming up. The US just has such a strong and money happy economy I'm scared to death what's going to happen when we hit our peak. We SHOULD have gone into a recession a few years ago but now I can see something really nasty hitting us soon.

2/15/2007 1:37:57 PM

^^could be true, states are commissioned with enforcing their own laws regarding shop status. If i'm not mistaken, NC is the only state in the union where it must be an open shop.

[Edited on February 15, 2007 at 1:41 PM. Reason : ^^]

2/15/2007 1:41:18 PM

Quote :

"GM and Ford are both trying to open non unionized factories with all newer model factories. I wonder what will happen "

they can't just say "we don't want a union anymore"....the decertification process is similar to the initial union certification process, which is long and drawn out.

2/15/2007 1:44:02 PM

Quote :

"The union's interests and the companies interests are pretty much at complete odds."

I'm not trying to be flippant here, but I seriously curious as to what exactly are a Union's interests? I'm not talking the workers, but the management. Growing up in the South I haven't had much interaction with them, so I'd be interested in knowing how Union bosses make their money and how they stand to gain by the tactics / demands they employ.

And BobbyDigital is right, this tread is (so far) much better than anything that would have come out of TSB.

2/15/2007 1:54:15 PM

Traditionally, union leaders were notorious for being involved with the mob. Currently, I'm pretty sure that union dues are the main form of income for unions. Keep in mind that many unions are connected with each other. Take the AFL/CIO, which represents people in many different jobs under the same umbrella. Back in the day, the AFL and CIO were very, very powerful.

2/15/2007 2:01:11 PM

It seems like a racket to me. I'm not saying I deny the usefulness at one point of unions, or the possibility of usefulness in the future, but it looks to me like people get paid for organizing workers who (in many states where they still retain power) are forced to join the organization whether it represents their will or not.

2/15/2007 2:09:13 PM

When unions were in their infancy they bordered on organized crime. to the point that the feds made laws specific as to what unions couldn't do (up until then, all the laws were for protecting unions from the companies). the tug of war continued until there was an equilibrium, that actually worked pretty well in the mid 20th century. Today's marketplace just isn't in need of unions like it was, and their numbers are way, way down from their hayday.

[Edited on February 15, 2007 at 2:18 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2007 2:18:17 PM

Quote :

"what's worse to the management, paying employees higher salary, or loss of business while the union workers are walking around outside on strike?"

Short terms costs vs. long term costs. Union contracts are agreed to by both sides. Don't try to pretend like the unions pulled a fast one on management. The difference between companies like GM that are getting killed by the union and companies like Bridgestone that only have a fraction of the number of unionized employees they used to is purely attributable to management.

I fully support workers rights to organize. I do not support closed shops, however I think there is some room for reform on laws against certain anti-union practices, such as firing workers for joining or entertaining unionizing.

2/15/2007 2:25:03 PM

I support the right to unionize, and believe that workers should have that option.

However, I still feel that most labor unions do more harm than good and create a disincentive to work hard. An employee's empowerment to get a job done should not be limited by union rules. A union should be there to protect laborers from management abuse, rather than protect laborers from work.

Also, employees should have the choice not to join a union --- in other words, closed shops are always a bad thing.

2/15/2007 2:43:23 PM

My pops used to work in a cotton mill and told me once during his career the union folks striked over some pretty weak wage increases. He said after it was all settled, the people that stayed out of work were going to have to work 13 years or something absurd like that to make up for the money they lost even with the benefit increase they were striking for.

2/15/2007 2:53:22 PM

Economic explanation:

Deadweight loss to consumer, producer, employee


Unions do mathematically suck

2/15/2007 3:05:00 PM

^^That, in my opinion is one big downfall with unions. Sure, your getting strength in numbers, but you're pretty much a pawn to the union once in.

To be fair though, usually during strikes, there is usually a fund for the occasion that supplements them while on strike, as long as there is money in the fund of course. If you really look into it, there are far more ways that unions manipulate people other than just striking, they try to avoid strikes too.

[Edited on February 15, 2007 at 3:09 PM. Reason : ^]

2/15/2007 3:08:18 PM

bttt

5/9/2009 12:01:06 PM

One of the places I work is trying to unionize. It's government funded. There would be no benefit to doing this. How do I organize against it?

They had a secret info session and sent an email friday saying that there would be a vote (location and time secret of course, unless you had signed up earlier).

What to do?

5/9/2009 2:04:36 PM

why organize against it?

5/9/2009 2:24:35 PM

whoa, blast from the past

-ThePeter

5/9/2009 3:21:26 PM

Quote :

"why organize against it?"

whynot?

I don't know what I have to do to vote against having a union where I work. It's a government facility, so I don't know if the rules are different there.

I'm not going to pay dues to anyone just to work. No one will look after my interests other than me.

5/10/2009 1:25:54 AM

in nc, you don't have to pay dues or be a member and the union still covers your ass--what's not to love?

5/10/2009 1:39:04 AM

see: detroit

5/10/2009 1:40:04 AM