What, exactly, do the iraq-war protestors hope to accomplish? Do they really want to bring every last troop home today, consequences be damned? I see articles all the time about war protests, and every single one of them seems to suggest this very thing. You see people running around chanting stuff about bringing home troops now, end the war today, blah blah blah...

So, are these people really that stupid? Are they so caught up in trying to be today's version of the vietnam protestors that they willfully ignore the consequences of leaving iraq and letting it implode?

3/20/2007 1:04:14 PM

Obviously so.

Some people simply do not have all the gears turning upstairs and can't reason that that country is not ready to be on it's own two feet. Yes, we do need to get out of there, yes the war needs to end, but at this point we would be doing more harm than good to let them go back to being on their own. What we need is an organized, planned exit strategy. Before we went in, there was order - there was a working system. Granted, it was a system of cruel dictatorship and a breeding ground for terrorists, but it was an ordered system.

We may have gone into a war under false pretenses, but we have gone into war nonetheless. They no longer have any organization or a government system worth speaking of. We have destroyed their system, and until we can effectively set up a new, self-supporting one, we have a duty to Iraq and the world to finish what we have begun.

3/20/2007 1:10:19 PM

what a great thread

3/20/2007 1:10:30 PM

I can understand walking in a protest in DC or something on par with that. A huge mass of people makes a powerful statement - it got Mussolini into office.

However, when I see 5 middle aged people holding signs on the sidewalk I pause. Actions like that do not hasten a US withdrawl, they don't ease the suffering of Iraqis, and they sure as hell don't ease the suffering of US troops. People do stuff like that so that they can climb into the beds at night and sleep well after telling themselves that they did something great.

3/20/2007 1:21:19 PM

At least they're doing something other than watching TV all day or posting on TWW.

3/20/2007 1:32:11 PM

Well yeah, but I get out there and burn crosses at night.

3/20/2007 1:33:10 PM

I think the idea is to keep attention on the issue and hopefully build momentum so that it snowballs into political pressure. Combined with outer things such as press coverage, political opposition, etc., it can move the powers that be. That being said, it is probably unrealistic to think that one could magically make all the troops disappear from Iraq just because they put some Democrats into power. As Congressman Obey pointed out, if you don't have the votes, you don't have the votes.

As for why they press so hard for an immediate withdrawal, the belief seems to fall into several camps. One is that Iraq is a lost cause and that nothing we do is going to stop the inevitable civil war, so we might as well let them duke it out. The other school of thought I've heard is that the Iraqi government is not serious about its attempts to stabilize the country while the US is there and that a US withdrawal is going to force them to really negotiate with insurgents and militias.

3/20/2007 2:24:01 PM

so. one motivator is "cut and run." The other is "baptismal by fire." i didn't think the libbies could successfully straddle both sides of the fence as far as political stereotypes. wow.

Quote :

"it is probably unrealistic to think that one could magically make all the troops disappear from Iraq"

So, they openly push for something that they, themselves, agree is impossible? sounds intelligent to me...

3/20/2007 2:35:06 PM

Have our troops succeeded in improving security? It certainly doesn't seem like it. If not, why keep them there?

3/20/2007 3:14:23 PM

cut and run. got it.

3/20/2007 3:16:39 PM

i can play that game too.

are you saying that you like our troops getting killed?

3/20/2007 3:18:51 PM

the only thing you do is play games

3/20/2007 3:19:47 PM

what game is this we are playing?

oh, and as for "do I like troops getting killed," I'd have to say no. BUT, I'm not so idiotic as to think that the number of troop deaths in Iraq is so god-awful that it necessitates an immediate withdrawal. In short, I can actually stomach a war. The death rate in iraq is, IIRC, less than the death rate for servicemembers stationed in other, non-war places. Seems to me that Iraq is a hellofa lot safer.

3/20/2007 3:24:20 PM

Quote :

"The death rate in iraq is, IIRC, less than the death rate for servicemembers stationed in other, non-war places. Seems to me that Iraq is a hellofa lot safer."

Really? The death rate is around 500-600 per 100,000. I don't see how it could be higher in peaceful areas.

3/20/2007 3:32:13 PM

that's less than 1%, man. it could easily be higher in other areas

3/20/2007 3:35:11 PM

For historical comparison, 13,000 Americans died in the Mexican-American war and 9 out of 10 Americans have probably never heard of the conflict.

3/20/2007 3:36:21 PM

I think the same thing about people who don't want to send more troops. Is there any other way to improve things in Iraq or is it just a lost cause?

3/20/2007 3:41:35 PM

^^battle tactics were a tad different back then.

dont ya think.

also whats the point of doing anything because nothing is going to be perfect and yield 100% results? What was the purpose of making this thread if it was just going to suck?

those are some good questions.

[Edited on March 20, 2007 at 3:42 PM. Reason : ^^]

3/20/2007 3:41:47 PM

Ya think ya have a point?

3/20/2007 3:42:57 PM

about as much a point as this thread.

3/20/2007 3:44:14 PM

point taken

3/20/2007 3:45:15 PM

Quote :

"that's less than 1%, man. it could easily be higher in other areas"

Peaceful areas? That'd be lot of accidents. In this country, the death rate for people 15-24 is about 90 per 100,000.

3/20/2007 4:07:25 PM

Quote :

"I can understand walking in a protest in DC or something on par with that. A huge mass of people makes a powerful statement - it got Mussolini into office. However, when I see 5 middle aged people holding signs on the sidewalk I pause. Actions like that do not hasten a US withdrawl, they don't ease the suffering of Iraqis, and they sure as hell don't ease the suffering of US troops. People do stuff like that so that they can climb into the beds at night and sleep well after telling themselves that they did something great."

it made you pause though didn't it?

[Edited on March 20, 2007 at 4:11 PM. Reason : /]

3/20/2007 4:11:00 PM

Quote :

". People do stuff like that so that they can climb into the beds at night and sleep well after telling themselves that they did something great."

You guys keep saying shit like this, and it's ridiculous. Maybe they're doing it cause they care and cause they can.

3/20/2007 4:12:48 PM

and because they think they're making a difference

3/20/2007 4:15:30 PM

Quote :

"The other school of thought I've heard is that the Iraqi government is not serious about its attempts to stabilize the country while the US is there and that a US withdrawal is going to force them to really negotiate with insurgents and militias."

I never got this argument. If your country is in dissaray, on the precipice of an all out civil war, you don't like the West, and are as proud as the Arabs are; then why the fuck are you stalling saying, "oh, the Americans will take care of it all" when clearly they aren't. Likewise when someone like Hannity says "its time they get their act straight or we'll leave" I think to myself, "hello, we invaded them, its incumbent upon us to get shit straight."

Meh, maybe its just me.

3/20/2007 4:33:21 PM

Quote :

"it made you pause though didn't it?"

Yes, pause and laugh.

3/20/2007 4:34:17 PM

They do it, because a moderate message would be discounted as half hearted and weak. To get what you want, you have to ask for all of it. If you ask for less than you want, you'll get even less than you could have.

[Edited on March 20, 2007 at 7:50 PM. Reason : .]

3/20/2007 7:49:18 PM

Quote :

"In this country, the death rate for people 15-24 is about 90 per 100,000."

remind me again, how many people are routinely working with explosives or are in close proximity to aircraft that are landing and taking off?

3/20/2007 9:20:56 PM

Quote :

"The death rate in iraq is, IIRC, less than the death rate for servicemembers stationed in other, non-war places. Seems to me that Iraq is a hellofa lot safer."

This was, I believe, true of the first Iraq war, but certainly not this one. There was at least a stretch during that conflict when you were more likely to die back home (from drunk driving, accidents, etc) than you were from any cause in the Gulf.

3/20/2007 9:28:34 PM

Question about war hawks?

What, exactly, do the war hawks hope to accomplish? Do they really want to stay the course Ad infinitum, consequences be damned? see articles all the time about war hawks, and every single one of them seems to suggest this very thing. You see people running around chanting stuff about support our troops, don't question authority, blah blah blah...

So, are these people really that stupid? Are they so caught up in trying to be today's version of the vietnam war hawks that they willfully ignore the consequences of staying in iraq and throwing more american lives at the never ending problem?

3/20/2007 9:30:36 PM

I saw somewhere (maybe on The Daily Show?) that 50% of the Iraq II war vets suffered some kind of mental trauma.

3/20/2007 9:31:30 PM

^^ eh, it's just so much more appropriate for the hippies, though

3/20/2007 9:33:05 PM

eh, its just so much more appropriate for the talking point sheep though

3/20/2007 9:39:09 PM

whose talking points am I copying? cause I sure as hell thought that up myself yesterday while reading about the bs protests...

3/20/2007 9:41:32 PM

how am i a hippie? cause im pretty sure that i took a shower today while getting ready this morning

3/20/2007 9:42:47 PM

never called you a hippie

3/20/2007 9:51:13 PM

never said you were copying talking points

3/20/2007 9:57:53 PM

fair nuff. btw, fdt

3/20/2007 10:16:52 PM

vietnam version 2.0

3/20/2007 11:19:02 PM

i 100% didn't agree with the war in iraq yet i think it would be irresponsible to completely withdrawal

3/20/2007 11:55:29 PM

Quote :

"Do they really want to bring every last troop home today, consequences be damned?"

Yup. I mean, when I was in San Francisco over the weekend there was a big rally. Most of the signs said "Out of Iraq NOW!" So I can only assume that's what they want.

So it is: the groups that march also tend to prattle on about diversity and equality. But here they are, preaching the word that American lives are inherently worth more than Iraqi lives.

What can ya do? There are a lot of crazies in the world. Being a fairly middle-of-the-road (but much more right than left) person, I'm not fond of either extreme. Call me crazy, but I believe that if all the nutso theocratic right-wingers from the sticks were somehow reborn in San Francisco in different bodies, they would grow up into rabid anti-war protesters and MoveOn activists. The mentality transcends politics.

[Edited on March 21, 2007 at 2:00 AM. Reason : foo]

3/21/2007 1:59:34 AM

what they should do is protest for the bush admin. head on a plate. it was wrong to go to war in the first place but now that the USA is neck deep its even more wrong to pull completely out without first fixing the mess.

3/21/2007 4:52:38 AM

I'm for immediate withdrawal of troops now.

All this talk about how terrible it would be if we left now is just bullshit to get us to stay there.

I mean, what do you think's gonna happen that us staying there for a few more years will somehow prevent?

3/21/2007 4:57:05 AM

it's politics, each party wants the other to look weak.

if we pull out and things improve the repubs will seize on every negative note and blame ANY bombings on the dems. dems will use progress to show that they're right.

if we pull out and things get worse, see #1 dems will blame repubs on starting the war and creating chaos in the first place.

if we stay in repubs will say the dems did nothing in congress to help the war. dems will show that they received no help and repubs are warmongers.

3/21/2007 7:34:10 AM

Quote :

"The death rate in iraq Afghanistan is, IIRC, less than the death rate for servicemembers stationed in other, non-war places. motorcycle accidents among non-deployed service members."

Although Iraq, not so much.

3/21/2007 10:46:59 AM

The only protests that make any kind of impact are the type where people get killed. I'm not advocating that, but peaceful protests, especially ones that take place in North Carolina or something, are of absolutely no consequence. It's just, people only *really* understand violence. A brigade of retards chanting things like "NO BLOOD FOR OIL" is simply worthless.

3/21/2007 11:01:01 AM

i agree

the only way anyone will pay attention to protest is for the streets to run red

but at this point, getting off the couch is the hardest thing for an american to do

3/21/2007 11:07:50 AM

so the only way to make a difference when protesting bloodshed in iraq, it to shed blood yourself

i think they may be viewed as hypocrites, i dunno

3/21/2007 11:11:17 AM

the less people on the planet, the better the chance of getting up-front parking

3/21/2007 11:22:36 AM