First off, i mean no disrespect. this isnt a "why christianity is wrong question" this is me being curious and rather than google id rather read responses from real people and their thoughts. i have never heard a good explanation of this so i will try again. basically as i read the bible in my quest for spiritual enlightenment i keep running into the age old paradox.

How is Jesus the son of God and God at the same time? Jesus in the bible is referred to as the son of god, as well as god sacraficing his only son....but christians also proclaim he is lord. and i understand the God in man form thing but if that were the case than why did he cry out on the cross "god has forsaken me", why wouldnt he have known what god knew?

this is only directed at christians with real answers, not to the "bible is made up" crowd.

3/27/2007 9:44:28 PM

::hiss::

3/27/2007 9:46:20 PM

I'm pretty much an agnostic by practice/belief though I did go to church/sunday school a dozen or so times when spending the weekend with my grandparents as a kid

However my main point is that in general, ie Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc....no religious text is correct word for word

3/27/2007 9:49:51 PM

obviously, so much has been lost in the countless translations.....but i do think this is a basic point of the religion aside from translation

im knda agnostic too, raised jewish but not jewish now. im just trying to expand my quest for spiritual knowledge

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 9:52 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 9:51:59 PM

The holy trinity is there so that Christianity is not a polytheistic pagan religion.

3/27/2007 9:53:17 PM

yeah i have heard that one before too

3/27/2007 9:54:03 PM

Jesus is the human, incarnation of God. He is "fully God and fully man." When he was on the cross, he became the embodiment of sin. That is, he took into himself the sin of all men. By doing so, God "turned away" or "forsook" Christ in that instant because of his hatred for sin. Shortly after having been forsaken, Christ proclaimed "It is accomplished" and then he died.

There are a lot of things God hasn't revealed to us, and a lot of things we can't seem to understand. Our minds, our created beings exist in three dimensions (four if you include time). I can grasp things that exist beyond those dimensions.

That's my take, and I hope it helps.

3/27/2007 10:07:45 PM

thanks, i appreciate the human approach instea of random goole.wikipedia stuff

3/27/2007 10:15:34 PM

My Irish priest used to relate it to a clover; three petals, one stem.

For whatever that's worth

3/27/2007 11:00:20 PM

the trinity is encapsulated in the verse Matthew the thirteenth chapter English Standard Version (ESV)

Quote :

" 13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" 15 Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." "

So if you accept the Bible as true you can see all three parts of the Trinity here in this single passage, Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father.

Other scripture that is helpful to understand the trinity, John 1:1-5

Quote :

" 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. "

A few verses later we learn, John 1:14

Quote :

" 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. "

In other words the "Word" is Jesus. In the original text "Word" is "logos" which is roughly the same idea as many have now who believe in the existence of a truth that pervades the cosmos. Well what these verses are saying is that Jesus is that truth that everyone intuitively knows is out there.

More to the point of your question these verses reveal that Jesus is God, but during his time on Earth something changed, Jesus "became flesh" he was separated from the usual communion he had with God the Father. Not always, he did afterall pray during his time on Earth. However, when he died on the cross he took on the sins of the whole human race. Then he died and during this process was punished for our sins, the worst aspect of this punishment was Jesus' separation from God the Father. This was a unique event in the history of the world as we know it, during any other period of time Jesus and God the Father communicate freely. For example we know that at the present time Jesus intercedes on behalf of the believer covering our sins with His sacrificial love. Also the Holy Spirit is involved in this continual process.

I can elaborate more if this is unclear, we can find the scripture to back it up.

wow, an actual question in TSB, I must be dreaming.

3/27/2007 11:26:26 PM

It's a throwback from the polytheistic pagan beliefs that Christianity is partially based on.

It's like how in Hinduism all the gods they have are really just one god.


^ That seems to be like in Deep Space 9 with Odo, and the Great Link is god, but Odo is part of the great link, even when he is out of it, yet he is also his own self.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 11:30 PM. Reason : ]

3/27/2007 11:27:44 PM

because jesus is magic

don't you have cable?

3/27/2007 11:29:18 PM

you arent going to find "trinity" in the bible. the idea of the holy trinity comes from an interpretation of the new testament. im not saying that its an incorrect interpretation, only that no verse explicitly spells it out. in the new testament paul uses christ, god, and the holy spirit interchangeably. many verses (like those mentioned above) are used to further develop this idea of god in three persons. the verse i used to remember the trinity as a kid was "May the grace of the Lord Jesus, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (although ive forgotten where its from, paul wrote it somewhere).

im not really sure what you are asking, are you asking how physically this can exist?

on a side note, lots of people have the same problem you do and thats why we have people like jehova's witnesses who have a much different view of the trinity and christadelphians who dont believe the trinity at all

3/27/2007 11:45:56 PM

The answer lies in the Godhead.

[No Christian]

3/28/2007 12:58:53 AM

Part of being omnipotent is being able to defy human logic

3/28/2007 2:22:29 AM

mathman basically answered the question the way I would have. Did his response answer your question?

Quote :

"mathman All American 666 Posts"

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 8:00 AM. Reason : -]

3/28/2007 7:59:36 AM

I didn't read some of the other responses, but I wanted to add this in case no one else hasn't.

At the time of Jesus, it was customary for many Jews to recite passages from Psalms in their daily lives. Be it a psalm of sorrow or one of worship. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me" actually appears directly in Psalms. It could have been just a reciting of a sorrowful Psalm.

I don't think Christ was actually wondering why his father had abandoned him. But, when woeful times came over the people of the time, they would recite poems, often to themselves.

Quote :

" PSALMS 22 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Mt. 27.46 · Mk. 15.34 Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. 3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. 4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. 5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded. 6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, Mt. 27.39 · Mk. 15.29 · Lk. 23.35 saying, 8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. Mt. 27.43 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. 11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. 12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. Mt. 27.35 · Mk. 15.24 · Lk. 23.34 · Joh. 19.24 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. 22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. Heb. 2.12 23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. 24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. 25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. 26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. 27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations. 29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. 30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. 31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."

---

I did just read the first real response about God "hating" the sin that was Jesus. That is completely incorrect and could not be more wrong. Although Christ bore the punishment for the sin of mankind, he did not become the sin of mankind.

Thus, the sacrifice of the perfect one holds weight. He who was not guilty was killed for the guilt of everyone else.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 8:24 AM. Reason : .]

3/28/2007 8:11:40 AM

going out on a limb here, I'd say that in a work of fiction, anything is possible.

3/28/2007 8:31:34 AM

OH MAN YOU ARE SO CLEVER

3/28/2007 8:33:06 AM

Have you ever analyzed a work of fiction for an English class? Even if you believe the Bible to be incorrect and fiction, can you still not analyze it? Why do you have to be such a mindless idiot?

OK GUYS, QUIT READING DON QUIXOTE AND MOBY DICK! DIRTYGREEK IS RITE!

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 8:34 AM. Reason : .]

3/28/2007 8:34:03 AM

ask God

3/28/2007 8:35:27 AM

Quote :

"I did just read the first real response about God "hating" the sin that was Jesus. That is completely incorrect and could not be more wrong. Although Christ bore the punishment for the sin of mankind, he did not become the sin of mankind."

Then I am to assume you interpret 2 Corinthians 5:21 (He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.) to mean that God used Christ as a sin offering and not imputed Christ as sin, correct? What about Galatians 3:13 (Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--)?

3/28/2007 11:55:47 AM

i dont really see how either of those verses are in conflict with what he said. could you extend your explanation a little?

3/28/2007 11:59:19 AM

Those two verses don't apply (this is off topic from the original question, which I answered)


I don't buy that God "hated" the sin that was Jesus at the moment he uttered "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

The act of the crucifixion was a sacrifice of LOVE not HATE. He was killed so that the sin of mankind can be forgiven over the blood spilled by the one who is sinless.

3/28/2007 12:07:44 PM

I think Abbott's Flatland: A romance of many dimensions does an interesting job of showing how one entity can exist as three distinct beings to a lesser realm. Basically, a 3d person is talking to a being in a 2d universe (Flatland). He pokes his finger into the plan and miraculously appears before the Flatlander as a circle. He then pokes two other fingers into the plan, showing up as 3 different circles in Flatland yet he is one entity in his own dimension. A Flatlander is unable to understand height or what it means to look up because of the limits to his existence in the second dimension.

3/28/2007 12:18:46 PM

I think the water analogy is much easier

ICE
WATER
STEAM

All are H20, yet all are different and display different characteristics.

3/28/2007 12:20:28 PM

^or any other molecule as well, although the overall temp range required to sublimate a solid would be greater!

3/28/2007 12:28:32 PM

The water analogy accounts for different states but does nothing for explaining existence of three different entities that are in fact one entity... An iceberg and a glass of water are different states but not the same H20.

3/28/2007 1:02:33 PM

I didn't say it was perfect. If it were, it would no longer be an analogy and would thus exist as the Holy Trinity itself.

3/28/2007 1:21:58 PM

Flatland though leaves nothing special about the number 3, you could just as easily stick 4 or 5 fingers in. And I know omnipotent beings by definition can do anything, but it seems like the 3 in the trinity should be more fundamental than a whim about how many fingers you want to stick in.

Atleast the water example maintains 3 as a fundamental element, so they both have good aspects, but neither is sufficient to explain it.

3/28/2007 6:13:21 PM

I guess I can finally speak the truth on the matter.

Look, we're not the same person. We're two people. I do have Jesus's password though so I can log onto his username and post under him when I want. He has my password too, so sometimes he posts under my username. Got it?

3/28/2007 6:26:40 PM

[/thread]

3/28/2007 6:27:31 PM

bring back the arian heresy.

3/28/2007 6:29:54 PM

Quote :

"The water analogy accounts for different states but does nothing for explaining existence of three different entities that are in fact one entity... An iceberg and a glass of water are different states but not the same H20."

Put a cup of water in the freezer for a while and take it out. It will be partly frozen, and some part of it will evaporate. It's all one and the same cup of water.

Sure, it's different actual particles, but if my arm fell off you would not say it was a separate person.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 8:59 PM. Reason : ]

3/28/2007 8:56:21 PM

Water is not a being though... kind of an important aspect. Hell, we shed countless skin cells, hair, nail clippings, etc. but that doesn't mean they represent a separate but equal existence as a being.

3/28/2007 11:18:45 PM

did we ever say they did?

3/29/2007 7:28:54 AM

Dude

again

it's an analogy.

Clearly it falls short of being exactly like the thing we are comparing it to.

3/29/2007 8:30:24 AM

Its a mystery.

How can God exist outside of time? How can he have created the universe... what was there before there was anything?

3/29/2007 8:54:17 AM

Or herself?

3/29/2007 10:39:21 AM

3/29/2007 10:57:00 AM

^^^
1. I would instead ask how can you limit God to the human concept of "time" ?
2. (Implicitly) Why do you assume that the universe is all that there is ?
3. God was there before there was "anything"

For the purposes of this comment lets interpret "anything" to mean matter/energy etc.. bound by the laws of physics as we know them or could extend them given more data.

3/31/2007 3:49:24 PM

Quote :

"Jesus is the human, incarnation of God. He is "fully God and fully man." When he was on the cross, he became the embodiment of sin. That is, he took into himself the sin of all men. By doing so, God "turned away" or "forsook" Christ in that instant because of his hatred for sin. Shortly after having been forsaken, Christ proclaimed "It is accomplished" and then he died."

lmfao

sorry, i'm trolling, but lmfao

amazing that people buy into that shit

3/31/2007 4:41:46 PM

^seriously, gtfo.

4/2/2007 10:12:24 AM