Quote :

"Two local state representatives want to repeal a law that gives students at [NCSSM] free tuition at the University of North Carolina. The two sponsors of the bill simply say it's not fair to only give the high school students at the select science and math school a break on their college tuition. But others say it’s an incentive that keeps the state's best and brightest at state colleges. Chris Qin was one of a select few chosen to attend the school. While he said that he loves the competitive learning environment there, he said the free UNC tuition is attractive to him and his fellow students. "A lot of the people at the school choose that as their reason for coming to the school,” Qin said. A reported 82 percent of graduates attend a UNC system school, up from 55 percent before the law took affect. Out of 300 seniors this year, all but six applied to schools within the UNC system. However, Rep. Paul Stam, R-Wake, said it's not fair to other top students in the state. "I can't think of the reasons why you would just pick out one the hundreds of high schools for this,” Stam said. Students [...] already get a high school education valued at up to $25,000 a year at taxpayers’ expense. It's estimated that the program costs the state $2 million a year."

i don't really care per se--it never benefitted me anyway--but I'm curious to see why people think it is or isn't a good idea. discuss...

4/3/2007 4:25:14 AM

Quote :

"it’s an incentive that keeps the state's best and brightest at state colleges"

If they're really the "best and brightest," why can't they earn merit scholarships at those colleges?

4/3/2007 5:01:00 AM

^they can, but they can also earn merit scholarships at out-of-state schools as well...

4/3/2007 5:04:29 AM

actually, i didn't get any merit-based aid at state, but va tech gave me a scholarship. i didn't find it compelling enough to go, but if ga tech had given me the same offer, i would be in atlanta right now

4/3/2007 8:43:20 AM

The idea is to keep them in NC. It's too early to tell about after college, but:

Quote :

"A reported 82 percent of graduates attend a UNC system school, up from 55 percent before the law took affect."

It seems to have pretty well plugged the brain drain.

4/3/2007 8:45:04 AM

Quote :

"S&Mers might lose their tuition break "

when i saw that, i was like... do those who engage in S&M get a tuition break?

4/3/2007 8:47:31 AM

^only if you do it with paul cousins

4/3/2007 8:49:11 AM

Quote :

"when i saw that, i was like... do those who engage in S&M get a tuition break? "

4/3/2007 8:50:47 AM

Quote :

"when i saw that, i was like... do those who engage in S&M get a tuition break?"

4/3/2007 8:53:33 AM

Quote :

"If they're really the "best and brightest," why can't they earn merit scholarships at those colleges?"

Hey, blow me. Going there isn't always enough to pay for all your school. Yeah, a got a couple minor scholarships to some of the places I applied, but nothing near a full ride. Actually, the out-of-state schools were a lot more generous with their scholarships. In any case, it was still too much money. Because really, what's $11,000 when it costs $40,000 to go there?

They instituted this the year after I graduated, so it doesn't matter much to me, personally. My sister gets free tuition at UNC and loves it, though.

4/3/2007 8:57:19 AM

I think it's favoritism.

4/3/2007 8:58:56 AM

it is JUST free tuition, not fees, room and board or any of that
this year it is:

$1765.00

a semester

it really isnt that big of a deal

4/3/2007 9:02:20 AM

ok, then can I have $3500 a year?



[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 9:14 AM. Reason : it's not a big deal right]

4/3/2007 9:13:58 AM

Quote :

"it's not fair to other top students in the state"

ding ding

Quote :

"$1765.00 a semester it really isnt that big of a deal"

Well I no longer think SSM has exclusively smart people attending.

[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 9:26 AM. Reason : k]

4/3/2007 9:15:09 AM

4/3/2007 9:24:51 AM

my main schtick is this:

it seems like someone on the board of governors said to themselves, "we're having trouble attracting top students b/c of competition from other universities. we could work on improving the quality of the schools, but it'd be a lot easier to just make them cheaper--let's do that." it seems cheap to me (in the pejorative sense)

but, maybe i'm reading too much into it

4/3/2007 9:32:35 AM

Quote :

"my main schtick is this: "

you're not too bright, are you?

4/3/2007 10:06:44 AM

Quote :

"Hey, blow me"

4/3/2007 10:20:20 AM

being from out of state i never knew that they got a tuition break - i support them getting it though

4/3/2007 10:50:28 AM

Quote :

"it's not fair to other top students in the state"

Well if they're so smart, why can't they get merit money on their own anyway? It shouldn't be a problem, right?

There's not enough money to go around to pay for every bright kid's college education, tuition break or not.

4/3/2007 10:59:04 AM

Quote :

"being from out of state i never knew that they got a tuition break - i support them getting it though"

Why? How does it make sense that a small group of students who excelled in middle school or whatever and decide to go to S&M get automatic tuition waivers while other students in the state who went to traditional schools and excelled in high school don't get access to these? Why would it be bad to open these scholarships up to all NC students and give them out based on merit?

They say the reason is to keep top students from going to out of state schools. If that is really the reason than there is no reason not to distribute these around to all schools based on grades/activities etc. Going to SSM doesn't mean you are more important or smarter than other top students.

4/3/2007 10:59:56 AM

i met a lot of stupid kids at ncsu - any way to easily recruit more intelligent ones that are likely to leave for better schools is a good thing

4/3/2007 11:04:02 AM

^ did you even read what I said?

I'm not against giving out tuition wavers to smart students from NC. I met tons of stupid people while I was at State also. I'm just saying a just passing student at SSM should not automatically get his tuition waved while a 5209232.2094 GPA student at another NC highschool has to get funding through other sources and might go out of state. It should be based on performance of the student not on what school you happened to go to.

4/3/2007 11:08:19 AM

Quote :

"Why? How does it make sense that a small group of students who excelled in middle school or whatever and decide to go to S&M get automatic tuition waivers while other students in the state who went to traditional schools and excelled in high school don't get access to these? Why would it be bad to open these scholarships up to all NC students and give them out based on merit? "

First off, NCSSM is the last two years of high school, not all four. It's not usually based on middle school- it's based on your SAT score (yes, they make you take the SAT), other testing (they have their own math, writing tests), application and high school achievements thus far.

Secondly, the selection process is rigorous. I don't think there's any high school in the state that has such a selective process. The people at NCSSM are really smart, if not smarter than some other kids in the state- they were chosen that way.

Also, excelling by comparison may not really be excelling at all. If you're #1 in your class at a subpar school, does it even matter? The obvious solution to your bitching is to keep the tuition break and let kids apply to NCSSM if they think they really need that $3000 per year. Do I think it's fair? No. And it shouldn't be if they want to keep smart kids here.

[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 11:09 AM. Reason : .]

4/3/2007 11:08:48 AM

Quote :

"If they're really the "best and brightest," why can't they earn merit scholarships at those colleges?"

maybe they're not the best nor the brightest

4/3/2007 11:20:18 AM

The whole idea is that it is a MERIT SCHOLARSHIP.

The kids earned it. Let them have it.

Personally, I think that it is a good thing. Over time there has been an increase in merit scholarships and a decrease in scholarships aimed at diversity.

Basically, you are spending the resources on the best and the brightest.

It makes sense.

4/3/2007 11:26:35 AM

Quote :

"The obvious solution to your bitching is to keep the tuition break and let kids apply to NCSSM if they think they really need that $3000 per year."

If you think that is the obvious solution than I'd definately never hire you for any sort of problem solving / engineering tasks. Also this is nothing about who needs the $3000. It's a recruitment waiver/scholarship not a need based one.

Quote :

"Also, excelling by comparison may not really be excelling at all. If you're #1 in your class at a subpar school, does it even matter"

First of all there are stanardized tests for a reason. SAT scores, AP scores, statewide tests. Completely ignoring this fact though I admit that SSM has some of the smarter students in the state. However I also guarantee you that there are people smarter and more talented than most SSM students who chose not to attend SSM. If the goal is to keep smart NC students at NC schools, how does it make sense to give these tuition wavers to less gifted students at SSM than the smarter students who decided not to attend?

The only arguments for this system I could see would be to 1) Attract the top students to the SSM. Students may be more likely to come if they know they'll have free tuition in state. The article said this WASN'T the purpose though. 2) It's a simple system to give out tuition wavers to the smarter students in the state without having to worry about spending resources on a selection committee etc. 3) SSM students don't have traditional scoring and grading and it might pose some problems for getting outside funding.

You weren't arguing for anything of that sort... and actually I have no idea what you were arguing for other than to keep some elitist stigma around your beloved SSM.

4/3/2007 11:28:30 AM

i think the charitable way to look at it is as a reward, for "accepting the greater challenge," so to speak. sure, there are equally competent students at high schools throughout the state, but these students went above and beyond and they deserve something for it. i don't think anyone is saying that it would be bad to expand merit-based aid. hell, i'd like to do away with in-state tuition altogether ("as free as practicable," right?), but that's not gonna happen any time soon.

[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 11:35 AM. Reason : ^nobody is going to s&m just to save 3000 a yr on tuition]

4/3/2007 11:33:32 AM

Quote :

" First of all there are stanardized tests for a reason. SAT scores, AP scores, statewide tests. Completely ignoring this fact though I admit that SSM has some of the smarter students in the state. However I also guarantee you that there are people smarter and more talented than most SSM students who chose not to attend SSM. If the goal is to keep smart NC students at NC schools, how does it make sense to give these tuition wavers to less gifted students at SSM than the smarter students who decided not to attend?"

First, you know as well as I do that those tests alone do not determine a person's intelligence.

I think it's partially about keeping kids who will likely excel at science and math in the state, not necessarily only keeping all the good kids around. I never said there weren't other smart kids in the state who aren't at NCSSM- I just don't think this tuition break harms them, since they wouldn't get funding from the state to go to college anyway (excepting need-based stuff).

Quote :

"You weren't arguing for anything of that sort... and actually I have no idea what you were arguing for other than to keep some elitist stigma around your beloved SSM."

I wasn't arguing for the sole ownership of these breaks to only be at NCSSM. I'm just saying that there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving them to students who were picked from the smartest kids in the state TO BEGIN WITH! I don't know what kind of selection committee you'd have divvying up these scholarships, but I can bet that they wouldn't be unbiased, either.

And stop calling it SSM- It's NCSSM.

4/3/2007 11:37:09 AM

Quote :

"you know as well as I do that those tests alone do not determine a person's intelligence."

Neither does the admittance to the NCSSM.

Quote :

"I wasn't arguing for the sole ownership of these breaks to only be at NCSSM"

Then we are arguing over nothing as that is my only objection.

NCSSM/SSM... in a thread about the North Carolina School of Science and Math I don't think there will be any confusion about me calling it the SSM.

4/3/2007 11:44:10 AM

Quote :

"Then we are arguing over nothing as that is my only objection."

You seem to want to take scholarships away from the kids at NCSSM and put them elsewhere- I think that's stupid. If you want more scholarships, pressure the state into expanding the program so it's available to other kids.

Quote :

"Neither does the admittance to the NCSSM."

No, but I seriously don't think you're going to find a higher concentration of smart kids at any other high school in the state.

Quote :

"If you think that is the obvious solution than I'd definately never hire you for any sort of problem solving / engineering tasks."

Just like I'll never hire you for your spelling skills. This debate has nothing to do with my engineering skills.

Seriously, why are you so derogatory towards someone who went there? Are you bitter that you didn't get in? Nobody is arguing for the supremacy of NCSSM kids above all other kids- but why take away their tuition breaks when they're obviously helping them stay in-state?

I'd also really love to know where all these dissenters were when they passed this in the state congress years ago, if they're so bitter about it now.

[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 12:18 PM. Reason : .]

4/3/2007 11:59:28 AM

keeping smart kids in the triangle is a good thing

4/3/2007 12:10:37 PM

out of curiosity, anybody know what happens to the money for tuition if someone from s&m wins something like a park scholarship? i would assume it gets rolled back into the scholarship fund...

4/3/2007 12:19:18 PM

Any scholarship money you earn displaces your tuition waiver. So people with other scholarships don't get this scholarship.

4/3/2007 12:23:47 PM

so, where does the money go? back to the state?

4/3/2007 12:30:25 PM

Yes it is NCSSM, and if your going to abbreviate it at least say Science & Math because thats what we call it. I went to NCSSM and was the first year to receive the tuition scholarship. The reason I went to NCSSM was because I came from a very low income family and knew I could never pay for college, even if I got scholarships. But from the beginning I understood that going to Science and Math increased my chance of getting better scholarships, and more of them. However when I found out we were getting the tuition waiver it really did lift a huge burden off my shoulders.

We were accepted to NCSSM for a reason, and just because other brighter students in NC didn't go doesn't make us any less qualified for the tuition waiver. Everyone can complain that it is an unfair advantage to other bright students in the state, but they had just as much opportunity to go to NCSSM as I did. And if they are really that bright then maybe they should have accepted them instead of me.

The fact that an overwhelming portion of S&Mers used to not go to state supported schools and now do shows that one of the main goals of the legislation works. Also since the legislation has been enacted they have seen a remarkable increase in applications. Hopefully because of this they are able to select a more diverse and smarter student body.

The problem that most people have when they find out that I get free tuition to State is that they didn't get free tuition. The problem is not that we are giving money to the wrong people, it is just that everyone is not getting it.

But Science and Math is a life changing experience and I believe everyone should go whether or not there is a tuition waiver. I don't believe I will ever experience learning again like I did at Science and Math, which I am grateful for even if they had not given me money for tuition. Go UNIS! haha.

4/3/2007 12:31:12 PM

Quote :

"Just like I'll never hire you for your spelling skills."

Spellcheck fixes mine. I don't see a logic check in word. Guess you're SOL.

Quote :

"No, but I seriously don't think you're going to find a higher concentration of smart kids at any other high school in the state."

I agree. That's why I said one of the reasons I can see for using this system is just a simple way to give the tuition waver to smart students.

Quote :

"You seem to want to take scholarships away from the kids at NCSSM and put them elsewhere"

I guess in the end this would happend to some of the scholarships. If the state only has money for 200 tuition wavers a year (or however many NCSSM students there are in a class) open these up to all students. If NCSSM students get 100/200 of these and 100 go to MORE QUALIFIED students in the state who choose to stay in the state for college because of these waivers I don't see how this is a bad thing. Well except for the students at NCSSM who didn't get it I guess but NC gets the better end of the deal by having better students stay in state.

Quote :

"Seriously, why are you so derogatory towards someone who went there? Are you bitter that you didn't get in? Nobody is arguing for the supremacy of NCSSM kids above all other kids"

Most NCSSM students I've met have been arrogant and snobby as if their going to nice highschool means something now after they've graduated. They dwell on their past accomplishments instead of what they are doing now and can do in the future. I guess I could of just seen a few bad apples. And no, I never applied to NCSSM although I'd argue I could of gotten in if I had thought it would of fit me.



Anyway this isn't soapbox or something... and I'm not trying to be an ass or anything so I'll let it rest. I just think the waiver shouldn't be open to only students who decided to attend NCSSM when there are plenty or smarter more qualified students that deserve the same opportunity.

4/3/2007 12:35:24 PM

Quote :

"so, where does the money go? back to the state?"

My understanding is that the state isn't actually paying anybody's tution, they are waiving it. If you get scholarships, then you pay whatever you got and any remaining tuition is waived. They are not paying or waiving room and board or books, just tuition. The cost of the program is the cost to the Universities of having additional heads without addition tuition.

4/3/2007 12:37:01 PM

i don't know how many people graduate each year from science and math, but i can't imagine it's enough of the "best and brightest" to make any sort of difference.

4/3/2007 12:44:27 PM

Quote :

"Spellcheck fixes mine. I don't see a logic check in word. Guess you're SOL."

My logic on this matter is absolutely fine. Besides, that spell check doesn't fix your bad grammar:

Quote :

"would of fit me"

Quote :

"Most NCSSM students I've met have been arrogant and snobby as if their going to nice highschool means something now after they've graduated."

So you're prejudiced on this issue. Well that clears it right up. We're not all that guy. It's entirely possible that you're just insecure about it- if you're convinced you're so much smarter than everyone else, it shouldn't matter where somebody said they went to high school.

In one sentence, all I wanted to say was:

Quote :

"We were accepted to NCSSM for a reason, and just because other brighter students in NC didn't go doesn't make us any less qualified for the tuition waiver."

Quote :

"i don't know how many people graduate each year from science and math"

About 250.

[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 12:50 PM. Reason : .]

4/3/2007 12:44:41 PM

so if i don't get a scholarship, the university just absorbs the cost of my tuition. but if i do, the university pays itself back from the scholarship fund...so the cost is waived to the student only. that's kinda fucked up

4/3/2007 12:58:04 PM

Quote :

"My understanding is that the state isn't actually paying anybody's tution, they are waiving it."

opportunity cost

4/3/2007 1:05:01 PM

let's give everyone who made it into governor's school a scholarship and everyone who made it into the school of the arts and everyone who does well on the high school mathematics exams.

i think the answer here is some combination of methods. but i think a blanket scholarship for every graduate of ncssm is the wrong answer. i think maybe a set number of scholarships would be reasonable (say 100 or 200 out of 250) because there are certainly some students at ncssm who are not nearly as deserving as other students.

and to contend that one's performance up through tenth grade is the same as one's perfromance through 12th is silly.

my main point is: they should keep these scholaships' for ncssm (maybe reduce the number a little bit) and increase the number of merit based scholarships statewide. it makes no sense that only a VERY small handful of our brightest kids get any sort of scholarships to unc-system schools.

4/3/2007 1:22:57 PM

time for the state to start tapping into that lottery money for something worthwhile.

4/3/2007 1:34:04 PM

Most screw-ups at S&M get kicked out. The incoming junior class has somewhere around 300, if not a little more, and then we end with 250. About half of those people just couldn't handle it and the other half got kicked out. They do their very best job at weeding out the bad apples making the student body the best it can be. And until you go to Science and Math, stop ranting because I am sure if you went to Science and Math you would want the tuition waiver as well.

And the fact is that everyone does have the same advantage as everyone else in the state to receive this waiver because everyone has the chance to apply. The only requirements are that you take the SAT, write a personal statement, and send in an application with your transcript. So therefore if someone who thinks that they are bright enough to get a tuition waiver wants it, they have every opportunity to apply.

4/3/2007 5:37:01 PM

Quote :

"And if they are really that bright then maybe they should have accepted them instead of me."

So...if the school screws up and denies admission to the actual "best and brightest," they should be further punished by not letting them have these scholarships either.

I'm all in favor of scholarships for the state's best students; it's good for the universities here, and in turn (hopefully) good for the state. I just don't see any reason why these have to be limited to NCSSM instead of open to all high school students.

4/3/2007 6:16:23 PM

Paul Stam is a complete douche that no one likes.

4/3/2007 6:19:20 PM

Here's the thing you guys seem to be missing.


In 10th grade the best and the brightest students are identified in NC and then we pay out the ass to school them for 2 years of high school.

It's embarrassing and a waste of resources if these kids immediately jump ship and go to school out of state.

This waiver helps keep the kids in state.

That's the entire reason behind it, period.



Now if you want to run a cost/benefit analysis on whether or not it is WORTH it for us to pay the 2 year HS upgrade and the 4 year undergrad tuition then be my guest. Make sure you really dig deep to find the data, run the regressions, analyze, and make inference.

4/3/2007 6:41:30 PM

Make them apply for it just like everyone else. Anything else is just asking for favors.

[Edited on April 3, 2007 at 7:22 PM. Reason : sdf]

4/3/2007 7:21:31 PM

Quote :

" Here's the thing you guys seem to be missing. In 10th grade the best and the brightest students are identified in NC and then we pay out the ass to school them for 2 years of high school. It's embarrassing and a waste of resources if these kids immediately jump ship and go to school out of state. This waiver helps keep the kids in state. That's the entire reason behind it, period."

Well put. I think it should stay. Did I go to NCSSM? No. I actually didn't apply. I'm fully confident that I could have gotten in, but I chose not to. I went to what is probably a pretty average high school, in a pretty average city (Greensboro) with a small graduating class (174 people). I wasn't even valedictorian. And I came to NCSU on a full scholarship. Now, obviously, there are some people who might be more deserving than an NCSSM student for a scholarship, and even a few of those might have applied, been denied, and then really excelled in their last two years of HS as opposed to an NCSSM student who (comparatively at least) loafed. But I think ending this program would be a bad thing because it's making a real difference in keeping talented students in the state of NC for college, with a negligible cost to the state. I think expanding other merit scholarships would be wonderful. I'd love to see a program like Georgia's HOPE program here in NC. But hurting a large group of bright students like NCSSM grads is counterproductive at best.

4/3/2007 9:11:47 PM