Apparently, they completely used up the entire quota for H1-B visas on the opening day for applications. While a case can be made that one needs to limit the number of tech workers coming in to raise wages and thus encourage Americans to go into engineering and science, this assumes that there'll still be a domestic tech economy left by the time those engineers and scientists come out of the system.

I think this is a real travesty though because if these smart, young, and ambitious scientists and engineers aren't working in the US, then they'll stay in their home countries and build up their domestic technology bases instead.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/04/america/NA-GEN-US-High-Tech-Visas.php

Quote :

"U.S. reaches cap for 2008 skilled-worker visa petitions in 1 day SEATTLE: To the dismay of technology companies that want to hire skilled foreign workers, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services said it reached its limit for 2008 H-1B visa petitions in a single day and will not accept any more. The agency began accepting petitions Monday for the fiscal year starting Oct. 1 and said it received about 150,000 applications by mid-afternoon. The temporary visas are for foreign workers with high-tech skills or in specialty occupations. The U.S. Congress has mandated that the immigration agency limit the visas granted to 65,000, although the cap does not apply to petitions made on behalf of current H-1B holders, and an additional 20,000 visas can be granted to applicants who hold advanced degrees from U.S. academic institutions. The agency said it will use computers to randomly pick visa recipients from the applications received Monday and Tuesday. It will reject the rest of the applications and return the filing fees. Employers seek H-1B visas on behalf of scientists, engineers, computer programmers and other workers with theoretical or technical expertise. In Microsoft Corp.'s case, about one-third of its 46,000 U.S.-based employees have work visas or are legal permanent residents with a green card, said Ginny Terzano, a spokeswoman for the company. "We are trying to work with Congress to get the cap increased," Terzano said. "Our real preference here is that there not be a cap at all." Compete America, a coalition that includes Microsoft, chip maker Intel Corp., business software company Oracle Corp. and others, expressed its opposition to the visa cap in a statement Tuesday. "Our broken visa policies for highly educated foreign professionals are not only counterproductive, they are anticompetitive and detrimental to America's long-term economic competitiveness," said Robert Hoffman, an Oracle vice president and co-chairman of Compete America. Opponents say increasing the visa limit will bring down wages and discourage American youth from pursuing tech careers."

4/5/2007 10:21:52 AM

BUT IF YOU ARE MEXICAN...

4/5/2007 10:24:37 AM

^ lawl'd

4/5/2007 10:29:45 AM

^^ It's rediculous. We make it nearly impossible for legal, skilled immigrants to come into this country, but when it comes to cheap and illegal Mexican laborers, we build shelters, community centers, and skills training programs for them instead.

[Edited on April 5, 2007 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

4/5/2007 10:50:12 AM

But if we allow foreigners to come in through H1-B visas then we don't need to encourage American's to get technical degrees: The jobs will be filled and Americans can go do whatever they want with their lives.

4/5/2007 11:36:49 AM

Quote :

"We make it nearly impossible for legal, skilled immigrants to come into this country"

So... they come over the border illegally?

4/5/2007 12:15:59 PM

Quote :

"So... they come over the border illegally?"

Do you realize just how hard it is to get an H1-B visa? The sheer number of bureaucratic hurdles and endless delays it takes?

Quote :

"But if we allow foreigners to come in through H1-B visas then we don't need to encourage American's to get technical degrees: The jobs will be filled and Americans can go do whatever they want with their lives."

I agree to an extent, but I wonder about this as well. Engineering salaries are already pretty high; is it possible that we may price ourselves out of the international market, pushing companies to go overseas? Also, given how high the salaries already are, it hasn't done anything to attract more Americans into the field. Even if we do find some magic bullet to change this situation, it would still take years to train up enough qualified engineers. Our companies can't wait. Already, several of America's top technology firms are setting up engineering shops overseas in part because they can't get the talent they need domestically. I know the Boeing Company for example has established large engineering centers in Moscow and India in large part because of a chronic shortage of aerospace, mechanical, electrical, and software engineers in the United States.

Wouldn't it simply be better to bring the foreigners here, where they'll establish roots and burn their money on domestic services?

4/5/2007 12:29:09 PM

Ah, the United States.

Such a paragon of free trade.

http://www.cepr.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=8

4/9/2007 5:35:41 PM

150k for that is laughable.

4/9/2007 6:06:20 PM

Quote :

"We make it nearly impossible for legal, skilled immigrants to come into this country, but when it comes to cheap and illegal Mexican laborers, we build shelters, community centers, and skills training programs for them instead. "

You're missing the point by such a wide berth I may cry.

We make it far more impossible for "cheap Mexicans" to cross the border than we do skilled immigrants, it's just that they're willing to cross at any cost. You could say that if the skilled laborers wanted it bad enough, it would be even easier for them to get in, as they can afford better transport and forgeries.

And we build shelters, etc. for poor people. They're not "for immigrants." That isn't a move to encourage or facilitate illegal immigration, it's a simple and reasonable response to a large population of unskilled and relatively impoverished people -- a population that is going to exist pretty much no matter what you do at this point.

The solution will come from relaxing all immigration requirements once and for all. There will be an adjustment period, but things will balance out and the issue will be resolved in a way that is not (as the current system is) offensive both to the economy and to the basic ideals of the nation.

4/9/2007 6:36:54 PM

people bitch about mexicans coming to our country and "taking our jobs", sorry but i do not plan to mow grass, do construction, or pick blueberries for the rest of my life.

I think the real problem is a lot of the foreign exchange asians/indians. They come over to our universities compete out a lot of American students in the class room. Then they pack their bags and head back to china/india/etc and use there American eduction to compete against us. Or they may just take the more direct route and steal all the high tech jobs over here.

In EE i think I have only had two TA's that were not foreign.

4/11/2007 12:55:42 AM

Quote :

"The solution will come from relaxing all immigration requirements once and for all."

I can see it now election 2050

Roberto Sanchez v. Carlos Mantoya in the presidential election after the hispanic population becomes the majority.

4/11/2007 12:58:24 AM

^Thats a problem because.....

4/11/2007 1:00:51 AM

i guess it really isn't i'm sure they would do a better job then the current administration

4/11/2007 1:05:46 AM

Quote :

"Or they may just take the more direct route and steal all the high tech jobs over here."

Steal? Why do you hate capitalism, son?

4/11/2007 2:43:16 AM

More accurately, why do you think our unskilled workforce should continue to suffer in poverty? Markets try their best to correct for economic imbalances, but the skill premium has already reached the point of demand destruction. The only hope is to increase the supply of skilled workers and fill the demand. Doing so will increase society-wide productivity and restore normalcy to the labor markets.

4/11/2007 2:34:51 PM

u lost me

4/11/2007 2:36:33 PM

It is really a chain of events, each leading to the next, very similar to a mathematical proof.

In a market economy, money chases scarcity. Skilled labor is scarce and thus employers bid wages ever higher until some marginal employers are driven out of the market, since they cannot avoid bankruptcy at the high wages. As most businesses employ both skilled and unskilled labor, this means that we have fewer unskilled jobs than we would otherwise have had. With fewer unskilled jobs, and an increasing number of unskilled workers we get unemployment which causes unskilled wages to stagnate or even fall.

So, the fact is America is suffering a severe skilled labor shortage, and that is driving down wages in our other labor markets to compensate.

OK, to prove it. Britain too has entered the 21st century, but thanks to British immigration rules, anyone possessing skills can get in. As such, their labor market is far less out of whack than ours. Yes, their skilled wages are lower than ours, but their unskilled wages are markedly higher than ours.

I realize this is a very complex concept to grasp, I usually find it much easier to explain it using made up examples, if you need it.

4/11/2007 4:43:31 PM

Quote :

"Britain too has entered the 21st century, but thanks to British immigration rules, anyone possessing skills can get in"

And Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

4/11/2007 6:00:15 PM

fucked the unskilled workers as my engineering company is stamping out my 60K starting salary checks

4/11/2007 6:42:08 PM

Quote :

"Canada, Australia, and New Zealand."

i thought it was tough as shit to get immigration approval to countries like austraila and NZ. You have to pretty much have a trade that is needed to benefit the economy

4/11/2007 6:43:03 PM

LoneSnark knows whats up.

the guys on tv are talking about "stagflation" a lot these days.

4/11/2007 8:25:06 PM

^^ canada, uk, aus, and nz all use a point system. but canada and uk i believe are easier to get in to for skilled workers.

sure, you need to be in a profession that the country needs, but that usually includes all the common professions: nurses, teachers, doctors, engineers, entrepreneurs, etc.

4/11/2007 8:30:36 PM

My prediction: instead of promoting more US citizen employment, companies will look to move offshore.
Artificial impediments like this always backfire.

4/12/2007 9:45:06 AM

Quote :

"The solution will come from relaxing all immigration requirements once and for all. There will be an adjustment period, but things will balance out and the issue will be resolved in a way that is not (as the current system is) offensive both to the economy and to the basic ideals of the nation."

I agree with you on this point and apologize for the remark on illegals, but its just really frustrating to me that while its incredibly difficult for skilled workers who want to come to the US to immigrate here, literally millions who dream of working in the United States, while you have millions of illegal literally walking across the border each day. I sympathise with the illegals and would love to bring them in legally through worker programs and whatnot, but I still have less sympathy for them going to illegal means and violating our laws than for the millions who actually go through the entire process of getting a US visa only to be rejected. Chalk it up to a personal issue.

Quote :

"people bitch about mexicans coming to our country and "taking our jobs", sorry but i do not plan to mow grass, do construction, or pick blueberries for the rest of my life."

Maybe you don't, but there are Americans here who depend on that type of work. When you flood the market with underpaid, cheap labor, then there's no way those Americans can compete.

Quote :

"I think the real problem is a lot of the foreign exchange asians/indians. They come over to our universities compete out a lot of American students in the class room. Then they pack their bags and head back to china/india/etc and use there American eduction to compete against us. Or they may just take the more direct route and steal all the high tech jobs over here."

The reason a lot of them go back is because they can't secure the visas needed to work in the United States. As for them stealing high tech jobs here, we have a serious engineering shortage in the this country, so I wouldn't really consider that stealing. When our companies can't get the talent they need here, they just pack up and go overseas.

4/12/2007 11:04:33 AM

Quote :

"Maybe you don't, but there are Americans here who depend on that type of work. When you flood the market with underpaid, cheap labor, then there's no way those Americans can compete."

Wages are set not by the workers willingness to accept but by what an alternative employer is willing to pay. If Mexicans are cheap labor that is solely because no employer is willing or able to pay more than "cheap" for their labor.

Now, flooding the market with unskilled immigrants is only a problem because a well served economy needs a mix of worker types to operate efficiently. Deprived of a reasonable mix of worker types then wages will adjust in an effort to obtain that mix, raising wages for skills that are scarce and lowering wages for skills that are in excess. So, if we flooded the economy with new labor that possessed the right skills then there is no reason why wages for any group would fall. As it is, we are being flooded with unskilled labor but are effectively preventing the immigration of skilled labor.

So, America's existing unskilled workforce can be helped two ways: keep out the unskilled immigrants, not plausible; or, we could let in skilled immigrants, quite easy to do, Congress could do it tomorrow. Either solution would fix the imbalance and restore normalcy to the nation's various labor markets.

[Edited on April 12, 2007 at 11:26 AM. Reason : .,.]

4/12/2007 11:22:30 AM

http://www.nber.org/papers/w11457

US engineer & science wages are high enough to attract foreign workers but not high enough to motivate domestic students to go into these disciplines. For all the lip service paid to needing more scientists in this country there exists little incentive to become one.

4/12/2007 2:34:32 PM

How much should we be paying our engineers and scientists? They already are some of the highest paid with just a BS.

I find that claim hard to believe given news like this:

Quote :

"The mean compensation for an engineer in the U.S. is $103,999, according to the annual salary survey published by EE Times. The figure includes bonuses and overtime. The mean for straight salary was $99,300, up $100 from the year before. Around 73 percent of U.S. engineers received a pay raise last year. The average pay raise was 4.6 percent, according to the survey. In Japan, mean compensation was $75,800 while it was $72,000 in Europe. "

http://news.com.com/2061-10788_3-6107399.html

Yes, I know compensation is different from salary, but that's still a lot more than what most Americans make. In 2005, the average starting salary for an engineer clocked in around $50,000.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/15/pf/college/starting_salaries/

Maybe they need more prestige or something, but I have no idea how you would promote that.

4/12/2007 2:56:11 PM

Quote :

"people bitch about mexicans coming to our country and "taking our jobs", sorry but i do not plan to mow grass, do construction, or pick blueberries for the rest of my life. "

as a person in this industry I'd hate to tell you they labor market is shifting. the "cheap mexicans" aren't cheap anymore and are mowing into more skilled areas, farmers are having a hard time getting fruit picker (though likely not a problem this year in NC) but my company alone has seen a massive drop in the number of applicants. they're moving into fields dominated by HS grads now like factories, mechanics, etc. and the kicker is their kids aren't interested in do the manual labor thing just like our generation so more competition for your siblings/kids which is fine by me. I think a large portion of people in our country need to get off their lazy butt and work, even if it doesn't pay as much as they like doing something is better then leaching and doing noting.

4/12/2007 5:58:35 PM

Quote :

"Yes, I know compensation is different from salary, but that's still a lot more than what most Americans make. In 2005, the average starting salary for an engineer clocked in around $50,000. "

you must have fell asleep during statistics class

4/12/2007 6:10:48 PM

^ How so?

4/12/2007 6:16:04 PM

i should have quoted

Quote :

"The mean compensation for an engineer in the U.S. is $103,999, according to the annual salary survey published by EE Times. The figure includes bonuses and overtime. The mean for straight salary was $99,300, up $100 from the year before."

but a few CEO's making 10 million a year kinda skews the mean. The median of the population would be more accurate

4/12/2007 6:46:25 PM

Quote :

"I think this is a real travesty though because if these smart, young, and ambitious scientists and engineers aren't working in the US, then they'll stay in their home countries and build up their domestic technology bases instead."

That's happening anyway.

Good article that's somewhat related to this discussion: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6542347/site/newsweek/

Quote :

"US engineer & science wages are high enough to attract foreign workers but not high enough to motivate domestic students to go into these disciplines. For all the lip service paid to needing more scientists in this country there exists little incentive to become one."

When I became an engineer I was happy with my salary.

For starters, we can get rid of do-nothing degrees that do not provide college graduates jobs, and then those people can go into degree programs like engineering or business or whatever that'll actually be related to their job. It's like the joke about the UNC grad.

Q: "How do you get a UNC grad off your front porch?" A: "Pay him for the pizza."

Not meaning to offend anyone, so if anyone knows I'm wrong and there's high placement, feel free to tell me, but how many people that graduate in Communications or Parks & Rec actually get jobs in communications or parks & rec?

[Edited on April 12, 2007 at 7:18 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2007 6:56:11 PM

True, but as the article pointed out, there's no reason to accelerate the process. Afterall, it would be better to bring them in, provide them with visas so they can work, and increase the odds that they will stay here rather than return to their homelands. Sure, a good number will go back, but a larger percentage will probably stay because of the high standard of living and the better environment for raising children. Many go back not because they want jobs back home but because they can't get through the red tape to stay here in the states.

Or, if you want to think of it another way, maybe importing skilled foreigners will help keep our base alive until a cultural shift will bring engineering back into vogue here in the US.

Quote :

"but a few CEO's making 10 million a year kinda skews the mean. The median of the population would be more accurate"

From reading the article, it looked like they interviewed engineers and not their bosses.

4/12/2007 7:14:42 PM

id just like to note that it is gay and my friend may not get his visa renewed cuz he didnt finish up his masters so he had to apply in the general pool.

4/12/2007 9:54:01 PM

Quote :

"In Microsoft Corp.'s case, about one-third of its 46,000 U.S.-based employees have work visas or are legal permanent residents with a green card, said Ginny Terzano, a spokeswoman for the company."

Just when I thought I couldn't hate them any more...

4/13/2007 2:13:58 AM

Quote :

"The solution will come from relaxing all immigration requirements once and for all. There will be an adjustment period, but things will balance out and the issue will be resolved in a way that is not (as the current system is) offensive both to the economy and to the basic ideals of the nation."

yup. anyone forget that every single person in this country is here because of an immigrant?

4/13/2007 9:54:29 AM

We should do an exchange program. They send us a tech worker. We send them a welfare non-worker.

4/13/2007 10:28:02 AM

Quote :

"We should do an exchange program. They send us a tech worker. We send them a welfare non-worker."

haha

4/13/2007 10:50:49 AM

As said earlier, engineer pay is fairly good--it's probably lack of prestige or some other sociological reason that keeps students from flocking to the field. In science adequete compensation is more of an issue. Ten years out of their BS a lot of scientists make no more than an elementary school teacher or a police officer. Academic salaries pretty much suck, especially for postdocs. In science, globalization of the labor pool happened a long time ago. On top of that industry has cut back their basic R&D over the last couple of decades so the number of pure research jobs outside of academia has declined.

4/13/2007 1:05:13 PM

^^ I bet after a year or two in India or China or Africa

they would beg to come back to the US and get a job

4/13/2007 4:54:13 PM

i thought most people who get jobs in science usually go back for masters or PHD

4/13/2007 5:18:26 PM

Quote :

"I think the real problem is a lot of the foreign exchange asians/indians. They come over to our universities compete out a lot of American students in the class room."

Sounds like the problem is that a lot of American students don't have the work ethic and/or intelligence to compete. These are people who came over the legal way worked hard, and achieved what they wanted to. That is not "the real problem", isn't that the American dream?

4/13/2007 5:35:10 PM

Well, I wasn't specific but my comments refer to those holding graduate degrees.

4/13/2007 6:26:50 PM