What do you have against the fair tax initiative? (http://www.fairtax.org)

They tout it as a non-partisan initiative but it's mostly Republicans who've signed. Can someone explain why democrats would be against this plan?

4/13/2007 2:09:47 AM

I'm a Republican-Reptile, and I am 100% against the fair tax initiative.

4/13/2007 2:27:36 AM

what is a republican-reptile?

I see the reptile part...

4/13/2007 2:33:03 AM

sales tax is regressive. even if you call it a "progressive sales tax"

Quote :

" person A: check it out. we abolish all corporate taxes and have the majority of the tax burden shifted to the citizens. we'll call it Fairtax. get it? "fair" tax. haha. person B: lol. good one. hey, you know, that might just work. "

4/13/2007 2:36:02 AM

When I look at there site and I ask myself:

Prebates?
It "Reimburses the tax on purchases of basic necessities" without an IRS? How do you plan on processing reimbursement without an IRS? Will there be monkeys?
Their graph that shows the largest PERCENTAGE reduction in effective tax rate for the wealthiest but you're not supposed to focus on that because they're still being taxed MORE than poor people so it's ok?
Their plan represents a very large overall reduction in effective taxation as a percent of income while it somehow protects social security, medicare, and balancing the budget?

I have to be a little skeptical.

4/13/2007 2:44:28 AM

^ That is a non-problem. There will be something like an IRS, but it's sole job will be done for it by the SS administration (making sure SS numbers are valid). Beyond that, mass printing government checks.

Also, it is not a large percentage reduction in effective tax rates. Today, many rich get away paying around 10% of their income in taxes. Many other rich get away paying none at all, since they are retired and living off inheritance, etc. Also, large swaths of our society are untaxed today: criminals, liars, mobsters, etc.

So, the fair tax proposal works because it spreads the burden of taxation wider and ensures there is no escape for well heeled individuals (beyond leaving the country).

As such, since the revenue is similar, all your pet programs would be safe.

All that said, the fair tax proposal would cause immense dislocation resulting in widespread lawlessness and criminality as the black market expands to include the sale of cars, goods, and food.

So, be more than a little skeptical, be against it. The downfall of civilization is not worth it.

4/13/2007 10:22:17 AM

Quote :

"All that said, the fair tax proposal would cause immense dislocation resulting in widespread lawlessness and criminality as the black market expands to include the sale of cars, goods, and food."

Are you joking? Can you please tell me how the fair tax would shift law abiding citizens (the ones paying their income taxes, shop at food lion, etc) into those that go down to their back alley tomato pusher for their daily fix of the lycopene so they can avoid the taxes and still get...healthy...or something?

4/13/2007 10:40:34 AM

L-Snark And I agree on so much...but not the FairTax. He wants a VAT-type tax that will hide any tax increase the gov't wants to impose.

Implementing the Fairtax would allow you to get all the money in your paycheck. No more federal, or social security taxes deducted. The SS payroll tax is the most regressive of all and hurts the poor.

You can control your tax burden by controlling your spending.

All goods and services are taxed Only Once. No tax paid on used items.

The Fairtax would lower evasion. It doesn't rely on taxpayers ratting themselves out every year to the IRS on how much they made. Your income is once again a private matter.
The amount of entities repsonsible for transmitting the tax is greatly reduced. Since companies would be collecting the tax instead of taxpayers reporting them. There are fewer companies than income tax payers.
Also what retail store owner is going to risk losing their business just to sell you something without the sales tax?

Liberals should love the Fairtax in that it completely removes the poor from paying any federal or social security tax. The prebate system will ensure that only the richest spenders will come anywhere close to paying the full 20% tax.

[Edited on April 13, 2007 at 10:56 AM. Reason : .]

4/13/2007 10:56:08 AM

Quote :

"Will there be monkeys?"

No one said anything about monkeys.
I'm so on board now.

4/13/2007 11:08:01 AM

i haven't read too much about it but i from what i have heard i think the fairtax is at the very least a decent idea that deserves broad attention

4/13/2007 11:19:20 AM

Quote :

"I have to be a little skeptical."

As you should be.

With the Fairtax, you have to get out of the mode of thinking about income. Think about spending. Who spends the most money? The Rich. Who spends the biggest percent of their income?..the Poor.

The Fairtax bill, now waiting for a vote in congress, has been carefully constructed so that the poor do not suffer from paying this higher percentage of their income. The rebate lets everyone off the hook for taxes paid on goods and services up to the poverty level. So with the rebate, the poor do not pay any federal tax, and the rest of us also pay less than the full 20% sales tax.

So if this is such a good idea, why is the bill languishing in Congress?

More and more representatives are co-sponsoring it. Hopefully with the changeover in parties, the democrats will let it on the floor for a vote so that they can say they passed it.

The groups who do not want the Fairtax are those politicians and lobbysists who will lose power by no longer being able to keep jerry-rigging the income tax. Tax lawyers and tax accountants will also have to get new jobs.

The Fairtax will shift an incredible amount of power and control away from politicians and back to the people...so therefore the bill has its share of enemies.
They will use the fact that average citizens aren't currently that aware of the idea and use that to scare them with deliberate contortions and lies.

4/13/2007 11:25:52 AM

I thought the problem with fairtax is if sales tax gets above a certain point say 20% the tax system breaks down because people start going to the black market to get the goods they want.

4/13/2007 10:07:47 PM

Fair tax means I will be paying more, so no. Please to pay for my roads athletes and movie stars.

4/13/2007 10:12:24 PM

its not just the dems that are against fair tax, its a lot of people

4/13/2007 10:43:12 PM

Quote :

"if sales tax gets above a certain point say 20% the tax system breaks down "

20% on all new goods and services has been determined by the FairTax economists as the rate needed to be revenue neutral..or raising the same amount of money as is currently raised with income taxes.

Only those very rich people who spend a lot of money will pay the full 20% rate. This from FairTax.ord explains it better...

Quote :

"the FairTax lowers marginal tax rates on work and savings, cuts remaining average lifetime tax rates, and enhances overall progressivity. This occurs because the reduction in these tax rates is proportionately much greater at the low end of the earnings distribution than at the high end. Consider a middle-aged couple with two children earning $20,000 per year compared to that same couple earning $500,000 per year. In switching to the FairTax, the low-income couple’s remaining average lifetime tax rate is only 1.5 percent versus 11.0 percent under the current system. The high-income couple’s rate is 20.5 percent versus 35.6 percent under the current system. The low-income couple gets an 86 percent cut in its average remaining lifetime tax rate, whereas the high-income couple gets a 42 percent cut. That same couple earning $70,000 would see their tax rate drop from 21.3 percent to 11.6 percent, a decline of 46 percent.1"

4/13/2007 10:46:13 PM

Another reason we can all pay less is all illegal aliens and foreign tourists will start paying taxes with the fair tax.

4/13/2007 11:01:39 PM