So apparently abortion is illegal in Ireland unless the mom's life is in danger. But in this case, doctors have told her that her baby (she's 4 months pregnant) will only survive a few hours after being born. She doesn't want to go through the whole pregnancy just to watch her newborn die.

Police are preventing her from going to the UK, where she could get an abortion legally. In my opinion, she should be able to get one, since the baby will die right after being born anyway.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6618911.stm

P.S. The baby has anencephaly, so a large part of its brain and skull are missing.

5/3/2007 9:51:29 AM

She should be able to get one regardless of whether or not the child would live or die.

5/3/2007 9:53:00 AM

1)

2) That government has a little too much time of their hands if they are preventing someone from leaving the country because they might go get an abortion in the UK.

5/3/2007 9:53:58 AM

^, ^^ I agree

I'm surprised no one has tried to support the other side yet. I had no idea that abortion was illegal in Ireland unless the mom's life is in danger; to me it seems backward.

5/3/2007 9:56:02 AM

Quote :

"She should be able to get one regardless of whether or not the child would live or die."

hell, why not just let parents gas toddlers that don't satisfy them completely.

5/3/2007 10:37:30 AM

if someone how the toddler had existed inside the mom without ever being born, ok

5/3/2007 10:39:38 AM

^1st, grammar....that sentence is barely comprehendible.

^2nd, sarcasm.

5/3/2007 10:42:42 AM

If the order stops her from going to britian, i say somebody raises money and if all travel isn't banned, just britian- they get her to a legal US state or other country. Fuck that kind of government BS. I wonder what the ban is specifically on, you cant really tell from the article.

5/3/2007 11:18:27 AM

So why doesnt she just drink a ton of booze every day and finish the baby off herself? She's irish already, shouldn't be that difficult a task.

5/3/2007 11:23:41 AM

Quote :

"She should be able to get one regardless of whether or not the child would live or die."

stfu with that shit.


that said. this isn't right. that level of genetic flaw is not conductive to life in any form/state so an abortion in such a case is akin to removing a large temporary tumor.

Quote :

"I'm surprised no one has tried to support the other side yet. I had no idea that abortion was illegal in Ireland unless the mom's life is in danger; to me it seems backward."

wow, most Americans are idiots.... Ireland is 90% + Catholic, abortions are expressly forbidden unless the mother's life is in danger and an abortion would save her.


most abortions in the US = convenience, not anything else. there's this thing, called adoption...

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 3:19 PM. Reason : sick fucks]

5/3/2007 3:17:07 PM

i love how it's only the men contesting abortion rights.

5/3/2007 3:19:21 PM

you uppity women need to know your place

I will not defend your "right" to kill

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 3:21 PM. Reason : s]

5/3/2007 3:20:11 PM

it is a womans choice

not a man's, not a country's, not a religion

She should be able to decide what is right for her and the fetus inside her. Pregnancy is difficult enough. I couldn't imagine going through 9 months of pain and joy and all the other emotions to give birth to a child that has no hope of survival.

this is very sad - the topic at hand and the comments being made. While men are entitled to their opinion, they really have no idea what it's like to be pregnant or give birth and should stay out of this.

5/3/2007 3:35:38 PM

Quote :

"She should be able to decide what is right for her and the fetus inside her. Pregnancy is difficult enough. I couldn't imagine going through 9 months of pain and joy and all the other emotions to give birth to a child that has no hope of survival. "

i agree with that, and in this situation an abortion may be called for, but

Quote :

"this is very sad - the topic at hand and the comments being made. While men are entitled to their opinion, they really have no idea what it's like to be pregnant or give birth and should stay out of this."

is stupid...Abortions should not be used as a form of birth control (irresponsibility at its peak). You are right that men have no idea what it's like to be pregnant, but most people know that it's not right to kill something just because you weren't responsible and don't want to deal with the consequences of your actions.

5/3/2007 3:46:48 PM

What about those incapable of "dealing with the consequences"?

5/3/2007 3:50:51 PM

The police have already said that they won't stop her from travelling to the UK unless a court order is brought against her. So technically, she's free to go now.

Quote :

"it is a womans choice not a man's, not a country's, not a religion"

It remains a political and legal issue, as it is in the US, and the majority of Irish people oppose abortion (women and men alike).

The only reason it's come up at all is because she's been legally put under the care of the public health service (probably due to neglect). They seem to think they have a right to stop her under childcare laws.

It seems extremely unlikely that she'll lose, given the weight of public opinion behind her and the circumstances of the case.

5/3/2007 3:53:32 PM

Quote :

"She should be able to get one regardless of whether or not the child would live or die."

But also...

Quote :

"Abortions should not be used as a form of birth control"

5/3/2007 4:13:20 PM

Quote :

"Abortions should not be used as a form of birth control (irresponsibility at its peak). You are right that men have no idea what it's like to be pregnant, but most people know that it's not right to kill something just because you weren't responsible and don't want to deal with the consequences of your actions."

I guess women should think about these things before getting raped! It's so irresponsible of them to get pregnant that way and then want an abortion!

No, they shouldn't be used as your only birth control. But sometimes other birth control malfunctions: condoms break, etc. Shit happens. It's not like you can tell people to stop having sex: they just won't listen.

5/3/2007 4:18:09 PM

Quote :

"It's not like you can tell people to stop having sex"

ha ha tell President Bush that

5/3/2007 4:30:48 PM

Quote :

"I guess women should think about these things before getting raped! It's so irresponsible of them to get pregnant that way and then want an abortion! "

never said anything about that, in fact that is one of the few situations that could morally call for an abortion

Quote :

"No, they shouldn't be used as your only birth control. But sometimes other birth control malfunctions: condoms break, etc. "

you honestly believe birth control malfunctions are the leading reason for abortions?



I'm not saying abortions should never be considered, but, as it is now, it's vastly overused

Quote :

"What about those incapable of "dealing with the consequences"

If you're capable of setting the events up, you should be held accountable for the result.....besides, it's not the kid's fault.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 4:36 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 4:33:59 PM

only god should have the choice if the baby should live or die.

5/3/2007 4:34:59 PM

thousands of living children starve to death daily

you people that make a huge deal out of an aborted fetus are full of crap. until you figure out a way to feed all of Africa so that the children are not dying painful deaths from starvation then get off your high horse about a ball of cells that cannot function outside the mothers body.

5/3/2007 4:38:55 PM

^why don't you give up your dinner to feed 'em if you're so concerned?

5/3/2007 4:39:40 PM

Quote :

"only god should have the choice if the baby should live or die"

oh good, so if I get an abortion and he doesn't stop me, I guess He wanted it to die

Quote :

"you honestly believe birth control malfunctions are the leading reason for abortions?"

I really don't think women are getting pregnant specifically to have an abortion, do you?

Quote :

"If you're capable of setting the events up, you should be held accountable for the result.....besides, it's not the kid's fault."

What events? Poor people have sex, too. That doesn't mean they could fully support a child. I think it's immeasurably crueler to bring a child into the world when you know you can't provide for it.

Quote :

"why don't you give up your dinner to feed 'em if you're so concerned?"

Right, like you would.

5/3/2007 4:42:26 PM

the way i have always viewed it is a baby is an appendage of the woman's body until it comes out and is able to survive on its own. i guess that does create a grey area though toward the end of pregnancy.

5/3/2007 4:49:01 PM

Quote :

"I really don't think women are getting pregnant specifically to have an abortion, do you? "

no, but i don't think many sweat the possibility of getting pregnant when they know abortion is an option.

Quote :

"What events? Poor people have sex, too. That doesn't mean they could fully support a child. I think it's immeasurably crueler to bring a child into the world when you know you can't provide for it. "

so you have to have money to be responsible?

Quote :

"Right, like you would"

never said i would, but I wasn't bitching about it.....I would never, however (unless health was a concern) be in favor of a girl i knocked up getting an abortion.

Quote :

"the way i have always viewed it is a baby is an appendage of the woman's body until it comes out and is able to survive on its own. i guess that does create a grey area though toward the end of pregnancy. "

actually not to bad.....nobody in their right mind would destroy one of their appendages unless their overall health depended on it.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 4:51 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 4:49:06 PM

Quote :

"oh good, so if I get an abortion and he doesn't stop me, I guess He wanted it to die "

haha

5/3/2007 4:53:22 PM

Here's a clip on abortion from the first democratic debate of this election cycle. I tend to think if you say all abortions should be illegal, except in certain cases, that you’ll never cover all the justifiable cases because they are too deeply individualistic by nature.



Edwards: I would say first that this decision by the Supreme Court is actually a perfect example of what’s at stake in this election. The kind of people who will be appointed to the united states supreme court by the next president will control whether a women’s freedom, freedom to choose, make her on healthcare decisions will be made by her or will be made by the government.

Obama: I trust women to make these decisions in conjunction with their doctors, and their families, and their clergy. … Now there’s a broader though and that is can we move past some of the debates around which we disagree and can we start talking about the things we do agree on: Reducing teen pregnancy, making it less likely for women to find themselves in the circumstances where they’ve got to anguish over these decisions… those are areas where I think we can all start mobilizing and move forward rather than look backwards.

Kucinich: It’s possible, I believe, to take a course of action where you can get all the people of America in support of a culture of life which includes: Prenatal care, postnatal care, child care, universal health care, a living wage… all those things that give support to life.

Dodd: Abortions ought to be rare, safe, and legal.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 4:53:31 PM

Quote :

"never said anything about that, in fact that is one of the few situations that could morally call for an abortion"

and then

Quote :

"If you're capable of setting the events up, you should be held accountable for the result.....besides, it's not the kid's fault."

If you are going to use the "it's not the kid's fault" argument, you can't really be saying that abortion is permissible in the event of a pregnancy as the result of a rape. The rape also wasn't the child's fault and, while it is a really terrible situation for the mother to be in, the child doesn't deserve to die just because of the way that it was conceived. Just my two cents, I guess, but that sort of hypocritical argument always bothers me.

As far as the original story goes, I don't know how I feel about abortion in the case of birth defects so severe that life is not possible outside of the womb; I mean, there are cases where the doctors said "this kid won't survive" and the mother goes through with the pregnancy anyway and the child *does* survive, which makes me weary of allowing it for this sort of situation. Anencephaly is pretty hardcore, though, and probably really hard to misdiagnose. I don't know, though, how I feel about it right now.

Also-

Quote :

"only god should have the choice if the baby should live or die."

Arguments like this make me want to scream with rage. Let's stick to reality and not bring our magical gods into it, everyone. Please? It only hurts the pro-life side, ESPECIALLY for those of us who base our pro-lifeness on the presumption of basic human rights, NOT religion-magic.

5/3/2007 4:55:29 PM

Quote :

"no, but i don't thing many sweat the possibility of getting pregnant when they know abortion is an option."

Abortions aren't cheap. I'd wager more people spend the $5 for condoms than you think they do.

Quote :

"so you have to have money to be responsible?"

It depends on what the fuck you seem to think "responsibility" is. Do you have a responsibility to feed your fucking kid if you decide to have it? Yes. Do you have a responsibility to clothe your kid? Keep it in school? Not be a drug addict? Be there for it?

"Responsibility" is in no way related to the act of having a child. Nine months is a long time to keep a baby in your belly when you know you either have to 1) give it up (which I'm sure, as a man, you could never even fathom emotionally) or 2) take care of it for the rest of its life.

Of course it can ruin your life and be inconvenient. The highest abortion ratio in 2000 was among girls under 15 years old. Under 15! You think these girls are mature and rich enough to handle this situation? Are you out of your mind?

Quote :

"I would never, however (unless health was a concern) be in favor of a girl i knocked up getting an abortion."

Great. It's not up to you.

Quote :

"nobody in their right mind would destroy one of their appendages unless their overall health depended on it"

Look up Body Integrity Identity Disorder.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 4:57 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 4:55:31 PM

Quote :

"Reducing teen pregnancy, making it less likely for women to find themselves in the circumstances where they’ve got to anguish over these decisions… those are areas where I think we can all start mobilizing and move forward rather than look backwards"

good in theory, but its a pipe dream.....the real way to prevent teen pregnancy is to make it clear that they will be stuck with the consequences of their actions.

Quote :

"Great. It's not up to you"

maybe not, but I'd give her more trouble than any pregnancy could.....

Quote :

"Responsibility" is in no way related to the act of having a child"

that's pretty stupid.....take your ass to social services and get some condoms, don't conceive the kid, and live happily ever after

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 4:58 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 4:56:04 PM

Quote :

"maybe not, but I'd give her more trouble than any pregnancy could"

yeah, beat the shit out of her

that'll help her keep the baby

Quote :

"that's pretty stupid.....take your ass to social services and get some condoms, don't conceive the kid, and live happily ever after"

You missed the part where I said condoms break.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 5:00 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 4:57:39 PM

^you're great at twisting things around, huh?

Quote :

"Look up Body Integrity Identity Disorder."

the key word there is disorder

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 5:00 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 4:59:59 PM

Quote :

""nobody in their right mind would destroy one of their appendages unless their overall health depended on it" Look up Body Integrity Identity Disorder."

Well, to be fair, they did say nobody in their right mind and since BIID is a disorder, it could be argued that the person suffering from it *isn't* in their right mind.

Just saying.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 5:01 PM. Reason : QUOTES ARE HARD GUISE]

5/3/2007 5:00:24 PM

^ Disorders don't automatically imply insanity or mental instability.

Quote :

"you're great at twisting things around, huh?"

Not at all. You'd seriously make a woman's life hell over not killing a baby in HER BODY that SHE has to deal with for the next nine months regardless of whether or not you planned on being there to support her?

Hahahahahaha, fuck you buddy, I hope you're never in that situation.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 5:03 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 5:02:00 PM

Quote :

"SHE has to deal with for the next nine months regardless of whether or not you planned on being there to support her"

if i agree to solely deal with, as you say, the kid for the next 18 years, i'm sure 9 months is do-able.

Quote :

"Disorders don't automatically imply insanity or mental instability"

then why even call it a disorder?

Quote :

"I hope you're never in that situation"

meeeee to......you have no idea.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 5:05 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 5:03:44 PM

Quote :

"then why even call it a disorder?"

Just look at people with Body Dysmorphia. Would you call them crazy just because they feel they're trapped in the wrong body?

Quote :

"if i agree to solely deal with, as you say, the kid for the next 18 years, i'm sure 9 months is do-able."

I hope you're loaded. I also hope she's out of school. 'Cause you're basically using her for your own personal baby machine for nine months of her life.

[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 5:09 PM. Reason : .]

5/3/2007 5:08:41 PM

Quote :

"Disorders don't automatically imply insanity or mental instability."

I totally agree with you there, but *for the purposes of your example of BIID*, if you don't mind me quoting wikipedia for a moment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotemnophilia

Quote :

"The condition is usually treated as a psychiatric disorder."

I mean, it all depends on your definition of "a psychiatric disorder" since it is debatable what it means to be in one's "right mind." However, given all this, I don't really think that your example of BIID refutes wlb420's statement that people "in their right mind" (presumably meaning a person without any psychiatric disorders) don't wish to "destroy one of their appendages unless their health depended on it."

5/3/2007 5:09:37 PM

I merely wanted to give an example of someone chopping off an appendage where they thought it was justified. Women who have abortions do so because they think it's the right thing to do most of the time: I don't think women are doing it as frivolously as he seems to think they are.

5/3/2007 5:11:39 PM

^Well, I mean, I think that the right thing to do here is to look up *statistics* on when and why women have abortions rather than, well, whatever it is when there's a "I say this" "well, you're wrong and I say this other thing" argument on T-Dub.

I have some little write-up that I did about some statistics I found once, and when I get home I'll see if I can find it and post it; I have to run some errands now, though, but I'll try to be back with that.

5/3/2007 5:14:42 PM

Quote :

"Arguments like this make me want to scream with rage. Let's stick to reality and not bring our magical gods into it, everyone. Please? It only hurts the pro-life side, ESPECIALLY for those of us who base our pro-lifeness on the presumption of basic human rights, NOT religion-magic."

fine, only nature should have the choice if the baby should live or die.

5/3/2007 5:15:15 PM

Quote :

"Well, I mean, I think that the right thing to do here is to look up *statistics* on when and why women have abortions rather than, well, whatever it is when there's a "I say this" "well, you're wrong and I say this other thing" argument on T-Dub."

Not an easy thing to do. I mean, what, do you think reporters do, hang out at abortion clinics and ask women why they had one? That's silly.

Quote :

"Three-quarters said that having a baby would interfere with work, school, or other responsibilities, about two-thirds said they could not afford to have a child and half said they did not want to be a single parent or had relationship problems. A multivariate analysis showed young teenagers to be 32% more likely than women over 18 or over to say they were not mature enough to raise a child and 19% more likely to say their parents wanted them to have an abortion. Unmarried women were 17% more likely than currently married women to choose abortion to prevent others from knowing they had had sex or became pregnant."

That's from 1988, anyway. But it's not easy to sort through all the pro-life and pro-choice websites to find an even keel on any of this.

http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0543.htm

5/3/2007 5:20:37 PM

Quote :

"grammar....that sentence is barely comprehendible."

selfpwnt

5/3/2007 5:32:01 PM

one less human is one space closer in the grocery store line

5/3/2007 6:13:40 PM

Quote :

"the way i have always viewed it is a baby is an appendage of the woman's body until it comes out and is able to survive on its own. "

i don't know if anybody has said this or not, but that bolded part is so wrong, unless you have never seen babies.

you think babies can survive on their own when they come out? a lot of animal babies yes, but not human babies.

so why should mothers have the choice to kill their children after birth, until they truly CAN survive on their own, which would be about the age of 4, at the earliest.

i am serious.

answer that.

Quote :

"I don't think women are doing it as frivolously as he seems to think they are."

something like 90% of all abortions are done for BIRTH CONTROL. under 10% are attributable to rape, mother's life in danger, or "condoms breaking" (which you keep bringing up as if it is a very likely event), i.e., birth control failing.


[Edited on May 3, 2007 at 7:06 PM. Reason : ]

5/3/2007 6:58:57 PM

Quote :

"Not an easy thing to do. I mean, what, do you think reporters do, hang out at abortion clinics and ask women why they had one? That's silly."

First, why would you be looking for statistics from reporters? Academic sources have done a plethora of research on this...
For example: http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/reasonsabortions.html
Yeah, that's a pro-life website, but you'll notice that they cite their source at the bottom of the page, which you can then go and look up. If you check your primary sources, it doesn't matter if the website that you got the information from was pro-whatever, you have the original study in hand and can cite that. Regarding this particular study, the Guttmacher institute, a Pro-Choice group, also has a summary of the findings on THEIR website: http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2005/09/06/index.html
If you compare what the two sides have to say and they both say the same thing, then you're golden. No worries on biases.

I was pointed to another study about a year ago regarding statistics about women who cite failed BC as their reason for an abortion:
Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, Contraceptive use among U.S. women having abortions in 2000-2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2002, 34(6):294-303.

You should be able to access it via the university's e-journal program. I can't do that anymore since I've graduated.

Anyway, it's an interesting article, but here's some tl;dr that I wrote in response to it and, honestly, I took the time to write it so I may as well post it. Keep in mind that I originally wrote it in response to someone else in some online-abortion-debate, which is why it might sound, at times, like a response.


I went and found the original publication in the journal Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health. The study was indeed based on self-reports (inherently less than reliable). Further, the study does say that 53.7% of women cited failed BC methods for their predicament. The male condom was cited most often (27.6% of all women) and the pill was cited second (13.6% of all women). Ok, so that's 41.2%; the remaining 12.5% included long acting (1.1%), withdrawal (7.3% and I can't believe that anyone actually relies on this method), periodic abstinence (2.2%), and "Other" (1.9%). Those all add up to 12.5%.

NOW, here's the thing: Of the condom users, 49% said that they had used it inconsistently while 76% of pill users said the same thing. That's 23.86% of women who cited failed birth control... guess what: birth control tends to fail if you don't use it regularly. Further, if you add in "withdrawal" as an inconsistent method (the study didn't define it as such, but come ON...) that's over half of those birth control failures chalked up to incompetence (31.16% = 23.86% + 7.3%)

The remaining 22.54% are women who, if their self-reports are correct, should not have gotten pregnant. But, as I said before, self-reports are really terrible for studies like this and I’m really surprised that this one got published.

Yes, condoms do break and so forth, so there will probably always be some portion of the population who has an unintended pregnancy due to BC failure. However, if people are educated regarding proper BC use and the use of backup methods, the numbers can be greatly reduced.

So, anyway, education on PROPER contraceptive use should be an integral part of the originally posted plan to really be effective, in my opinion. At the same time, however, one should be skeptical about the percentages of abortions sought due to “failed” birth control methods… if the method is used inconsistently the BC method can’t really “fail” as it wasn’t really given a chance.

Citation:
Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, Contraceptive use among U.S. women having abortions in 2000-2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2002, 34(6):294-303.

5/3/2007 8:28:52 PM

Where do you draw the line, honestly? It's not as if abortions work on a case to case basis. You can't pretend that the child is only a child at the moment that it is removed from the womb.

5/3/2007 8:54:12 PM

Let's make the day-after pill available to men

5/3/2007 8:55:54 PM

Wouldn't it be awesome to grow up knowing that your parents would have aborted you if not for a law. How can that not work out for the best

5/3/2007 9:49:24 PM

I find it laughable that we always talk about women's rights but never women's responsibilities.

5/3/2007 10:22:11 PM