http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6627605.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm


a british couple on holiday in portugal (both of them DOCTORS), left their 4-yo daughter, and 2-yo twins at their club house alone after putting them to sleep. they went to have a meal at a restaurant away from the club house.

they said they kept checking back every half hour to hour to make sure they were ok.

(so what about in the 30-60 min in between? can kids that young survive on their own if something happens? )

during one of the checkings, the girl was not there, and there were signs of forced entry.

now this couple is crying on tv all over europe, and relatives are saying they were such loving parents BLAH BLAH BLAH.

i am sure they were, but they were GODDAMN STUPID, and NOT FIT TO BE PARENTS.

a crackwhore can be loving to her children, but a crackwhore is generally not fit to be a parent, is she? stuff like this pisses me off so much.

how come no one is daring to comment about their stupidity??? had it been some poor menial laborer parents, everybody would have been all over that commenting on their fitness (or lack thereof) to be parents.

i hope the girl is safe and everything and is reutrned, but i hope they receive a threat from child services that their kids will be taken away. aren't there laws against leaving kids home alone under a certain age?

AND HERE IS THE KICKER

the club house offered a creche service, but the parents didn't avail of it.

that just clinches the deal right there and shows their carelessness and callousness.

fuck them.

and as a side note: this seems too much like a targeted kidnapping. either for ransom, or to be sold to childless couples across europe. someone knew they were out having dinner, AND that the kids were home alone. just seems like it. and why take a child if it was, say, robbers? and also, why take the older one and not the younger ones? older one easier to take care of and handle/imprison.


[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 5:47 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 5:39:31 PM

while 30 minutes is a long time, it says they put them to sleep
I mean, in theory, they really weren't going to go anywhere in their sleep

Kids get kidnapped from their beds while parents/guardians are actually in houses, too, you know. The Lindbergh baby got taken while asleep: the nanny was nearby, but wasn't watching the kid every second. In fact, I wonder how many babysitters ever do watch their children while they sleep.

I mean, how many parents do you know who actually stay up and watch their kids sleep all night?

Of course it was beyond stupid to leave them completely alone, but if they checked every half hour, that's a lot more than most parents do after they put a kid to bed.

5/7/2007 5:57:35 PM

^ it is not just about the possibility of being kidnapped.

if your child is sleeping, and you are in the room next to the child's room, and someone sneaks into the house and takes the baby, and you don't hear a thing, that's not your fault, and is beyond your control.

but if you leave them alone and leave the house, you are at fault.

so as i was saying, it is more than just about the possibility of being kidnapped. what if there is some loud noise outside the house and the babies wake up and cry. it is cruel to neglect a crying a baby. now if you are having dinner at a restaurant, you ain't gonna hear your baby cry who is at home alone, are you?

or what if the 4-yo wakes up to go to the toilet, and while on the toilet seat, slips inside the toilet bowl and is stick. THEN WHAT? she will cry, and the again, you won't know. or what if she falls down the stairs, or bangs her had against a table corner, ETC ETC ETC.

jesus if you are so naive, i hope that you won't be [so naive] when there is a kid under your responsibility whether yours or not.

Quote :

"that's a lot more than most parents do after they put a kid to bed."

that's doesn't cut it. we are talking about babies here, not cars.

again

jesus if you are so naive, i hope that you won't be [so naive] when there is a kid under your responsibility whether yours or not.

5/7/2007 6:07:11 PM

1. You missed the part where I said it was stupid to leave them alone.
2. How many kids under five pee unassisted, or get up in the middle of the night to do so? How many kids have you taken care of, by the way? You usually take them to the bathroom before they go to bed.
3. Babysitting and child-rearing are serious jobs, but some people make mistakes. That doesn't mean I'm personally naive or that I would ever leave the house (and haven't ever, in all of my adventures in babysitting). That also doesn't mean that I'd sit and stare at the kid all night to make sure he didn't go anywhere, though: I was a room away if anything happened. Though honestly, I could bring up any number of things that you could never control or even hear when a kid was in the next room: SIDS, for one. Nobody knows that they could've prevented the kidnapping even if they were in the apartment, though. You just want to blame them regardless.

But it's not like they left for dinner and just said "fuck it! let's leave them there all night because they're asleep!" I'm just trying to point out that they are not the worst of the worst, or the scum of the Earth like you're making them into being.

I mean, if you want to blame them for the kidnapping, go ahead: say whatever, it's not going to bring the kid back any faster if you do.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 6:19 PM. Reason : .]

5/7/2007 6:16:29 PM

i never said "worst of the worst", or "scum of the earth".

i said "goddamn stupid" and "not fit to be parents".

those are the strongest statements i made, and that could be made by most people. maybe a bit stronger if you give the fact that they were doctors a lot more weight, which is completely reasonable.

i am still baffled that they are doctors and they left very young kids alone at home.

and they haven't even expressed remorse over that or said sorry in any of their many tv appearances since the kidnapping.

EDIT:

forgot to say this:

if you factor in the fact that the club house had a childcare service, but they didn't avail of it, and having already factored in the fact that they are doctors, "really really bad/horrendous parents" is not too far off a label.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 6:23 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 6:21:14 PM

Quote :

"When Mrs McCann went to check on her about an hour later, she found the bedroom's outside shutter and window had been opened and her daughter missing."

Maybe Peter Pan came and helped her fly away.

5/7/2007 6:22:31 PM

while its bad, checking back every 30 mins isnt too much worse than being in a house and checking every so often.

5/7/2007 6:35:59 PM

Quote :

"and as a side note: this seems too much like a targeted kidnapping. either for ransom, or to be sold to childless couples across europe. someone knew they were out having dinner, AND that the kids were home alone. just seems like it. and why take a child if it was, say, robbers? and also, why take the older one and not the younger ones? older one easier to take care of and handle/imprison."

maybe they were in on it. kinda like that denzel movie

5/7/2007 6:43:31 PM

at least they didn't abort the kids, am I right

5/7/2007 6:46:12 PM

those poor parents. i know they are absolutely eaten up with despair.

i would never gloat at their loss, as stupid as it seems in hindsight.

i, personally, have never left my 2 1/2-yr old alone in the house by himself.

but i have sometimes gone down in the basement to do laundry or something while he was playing in a relatively secured area upstairs.

doors are locked, dangerous stuff out of reach, baby gates, etc. the dog (a pit-boxer mix) is up there with him, so i dont worry about someone breaking in.

but what if a freak accident were to occur? would i be a horrible parent? probably so. you know some asshole would be on here hollering "OMG he left his kid alone for 5 minutes, what a shitty parent."

OEP, I hope that you will please be careful at all times of your life, so that no accidents ever befall you or your family due to either circumstance or poor judgement.

5/7/2007 7:15:10 PM

Quote :

"i would never gloat at their loss, as stupid as it seems in hindsight."

i never "gloated" at their loss.

Quote :

"but i have sometimes gone down in the basement to do laundry "

basement != restaurant away from house

Quote :

"but what if a freak accident were to occur? "

leaving your kids alone to go to dinner is not a "freak accident". i specifically commented earlier that things beyond your control don't count.

Quote :

""OMG he left his kid alone for 5 minutes, what a shitty parent.""

OMFWTFBBQ NEW MATHEMATICAL DISCOVERY:

5 != 30 or 60

!!!!!1111

nigga plz, you can do a LOT better.

5/7/2007 7:26:21 PM

There could have been something like a fire, etc... I think thats more of a reason not to leave your kids alone.

5/7/2007 7:30:40 PM

actually, i probably have left my kid alone for close to 30 minutes while ive been down in the basement doing major laundry. i only said 5 minutes because i wanted to minimize my culpability.

i listen for him, and feel like all reasonable precautions have been taken, but accidents can happen.

say.... an accident that maybe i could have prevented had I been upstairs to catch it before it got out of control.

anyhow.

(1) you are gloating. you are parading around your sense of moral superiority by holding up this tragic incident as evidence that these parents are way more shitty than you would be if you ever had kids.



(2)

Quote :

"those poor parents. i know they are absolutely eaten up with despair."

i can't and won't make a judgment on them because i can almost feel their pain.



(3)

Quote :

"OEP, I hope that you will please be careful at all times of your life, so that no accidents ever befall you or your family due to either circumstance or poor judgement."

for seriously.




[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 7:38 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 7:34:18 PM

^^ exactly.

i already commented indirectly on that, but didn't mention fire. a million things could happen aside from kidnapping.

if you are a parent, you ain't gonna think about kidnapping as a consequence of leaving your kids alone in a locked house... that's highly unlikely. and that wasn't my point anyway when i made this thread.

but there are so many other things that could happen. and that's exactly why you shoudn't leave them alone and go outside the house, unless for a few minutes or so.

Quote :

"2. How many kids under five pee unassisted, or get up in the middle of the night to do so? How many kids have you taken care of, by the way? You usually take them to the bathroom before they go to bed."

StillFuchsia, obviously, you haven't seen many kids.


[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 7:40 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 7:37:48 PM

Quote :

"i listen for him"

thanks for repeating my point (which i have been saying indirectly all along).

Kids at that age have to be in your (or another responsible person's) visual or aural field or both at all times.

thanks for reinforcing my point, and making me think about putting it in words for everybody to understand, esp for those who can't seem to get it, and keep bringing up nonsense/irrelevance.

gg.

5/7/2007 7:44:03 PM

no, gg to you for only being able to see the world in terms of black and white.

im painfully aware of the difference between their situation an the one i describe.

i too feel like screaming "what the fuck is wrong with you people!"

but im telling you every parent is guilty of neglect to some degree or another. i don't watch my kid 24 hours a goddamned day, and if something ever happened to him while i was supposed to be on watch it would fucking kill me.

i feel guilty that my wife and i have to take our kid to daycare so that we can both have our professional careers, and live a little more comfortably.

i feel guilty that i ignore my kid sometimes when i'm tired or really want to pay attention to something else.

i feel guilty that sometimes i give more attention to mundane chores than my kid.

i have moments of panic when my kid is not in my sight and i realize i haven't heard him for a minute or three, and i imagine him laying dead and blue choking on a goddamned quarter or something.

i feel guilty that because i cant give my kid all my attention, and i still want to have my own thoughts and internal life.

so when these parents, on a dream vacation they probably planned for a year or more, thought they could just have one nice dinner as adults by themselves while their children were safely sleeping....

what the hell am i going to say???

god fucking help them, is all i can say.

would i ever do such a thing? no, i certainly don't think so, not at age 2 or 4. but would i when he is 8 or 9? i dont know. probably not. 12? maybe. do 12 year olds ever die in fires or get kidnapped?

you know, so just take your pompous holier than thou moralizing and stick it up your ass.







[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 8:04 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 7:55:40 PM

Quote :

"would i ever do such a thing? no, i certainly don't think so, not at age 2 or 4."

thanks again, gg.

and again, you are bringing up nonsense/irrelevance:

Quote :

"i feel guilty that my wife and i have to take our kid to daycare so we can make more money and our family can have nicer things doesn't have to live on the edge of poverty."

daycare = someone watching. thanks again, gg.

Quote :

"so when these parents, on a dream vacation they probably planned for a year or more, thought they could just have one nice dinner as adults by themselves while their children were safely sleeping...."

there was a daycare available at the hotel, but they didn't avail of it. jesus, this is 4th time i am repeating this fact.

Quote :

"you know, so just take your pompous holier than thou moralizing and stick it up your ass."

that translates to an admission of pwnt by you. you know, when you can't make sense anymore, start cursing at people!

(not like you or anybody else has been making sense anyway, continually bringing up freak accidents, daycare, and other nonsense/irrlevance which i took care of at the beginning of the thread)


*********************************************************************

Kids at that age have to be in your (or another responsible person's) visual or aural field or both at all times.

(again, that's what it boils down to, if you are a responsible parent... and i mean, they are DOCTORS dammit)


[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 8:12 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 8:07:36 PM

i'm glad your world is composed completely in blacks and whites. it must make life pretty easy for you.

i keep finding there's little point in discussing children with someone who isn't a parent.

because you're over here playing semantics, when its really about the pain of losing a child and the torment they are going to have for the rest of their lives.

and they had a reason they didnt use the child care service. i don't know what the full story is. neither do you, but i'm sure that won't stop you.

so if you want to think you pwnt me, well hey... knock yourself out.

because im done here.








[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 8:35 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 8:25:09 PM

Kids at that age have to be in your (or another responsible person's) visual or aural field or both at all times.

That's not a hard thing to do. (and for the 5th time: they didn't use the hotels childcare service)

End of story.

P.S. One doesn't have to be a parent to know that leaving your babies home alone to go have a fancy dinner is IRRESPONSIBLE. But thanks for whatever that fallacy is called ("Oh you are not a parent so you can't comment"). I am not talking about some minute or specific thing/parenting skill here, like what encouraging words to use, what scolding words to use/not use, etc... with those, I don't know, because I am not a parent. BUT LEAVING YOUR KIDS ALONE AT HOME AT THAT AGE IS A BIG FUCKING THING, AND ANYBODY CAN COMMENT ON IT, WHETHER A PARENT OR NOT, BECAUSE IT IS CLEARLY IRRESPONSIBLE, AND NO PARENT SHOULD DO IT.


[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 8:38 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 8:31:20 PM

I hope they get their daughter back in one piece.

5/7/2007 8:35:22 PM

^ i hope so too.

Quote :

"and they had a reason they didnt use the child care service. i don't know what the full story is. neither do you, but i'm sure that won't stop you."

wait, you are saying i am guilty of assuming, but SO ARE YOU.

because you did'nt say "MAYBE they had a reason..."

you plainly said "they HAD a reason..."

oh yeah, what was their reason? you are plainly assuming they had some reason for sure, when you don't know the story too.

and besides, there is absolutely no reason that could be reasonable, unless it was a monster looking after the children in the childcare facility. no money? that's not a reason, that's "tough luck". and anyway, it doesn't matter what the reason is, because if for WHATEVER reason they couldn't use the childcare facility, and couldn't find an adult to look after them, they should have stayed in, or taken their kids with them.

so either way, they were grossly negligent.

so again, you suck, because you keep bringing up nonsense/irrelevance.


[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 8:46 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 8:42:10 PM

I'm not sure how people can defend this.

Leaving kids that young completely alone just isn't right.

Doing some chores around the house while your kids aren't directly in sight is pretty far removed from actually leaving the premises for up to an hour, even if they are sleeping.

Quote :

"but im telling you every parent is guilty of neglect to some degree or another. i don't watch my kid 24 hours a goddamned day, and if something ever happened to him while i was supposed to be on watch it would fucking kill me. i feel guilty that my wife and i have to take our kid to daycare so that we can both have our professional careers, and live a little more comfortably. i feel guilty that i ignore my kid sometimes when i'm tired or really want to pay attention to something else. i feel guilty that sometimes i give more attention to mundane chores than my kid. i have moments of panic when my kid is not in my sight and i realize i haven't heard him for a minute or three, and i imagine him laying dead and blue choking on a goddamned quarter or something. i feel guilty that because i cant give my kid all my attention, and i still want to have my own thoughts and internal life."

Everything you said there is completely understandable, and completely normal.

I just don't see this as being a comparable situation to what you're describing.

[Edited on May 7, 2007 at 8:50 PM. Reason : ]

5/7/2007 8:46:33 PM

^ thank you.

wow, sensible people still exist in this world. i don't know the answer to this either:

Quote :

"I'm not sure how people can defend this."

i am still baffled as to how joe_schmoe is keeping on insisting that either, it isn't a big deal, or that he can't faulr them for it, or that because i am not a parent i can't say anything, or other IRRELEVANT bullshit.

5/7/2007 8:48:56 PM

Not a big deal. I can think of far worse things a parent can do.

5/7/2007 9:07:56 PM

^ Thanks, because you know, that's APPLICABLE to everrything in life, unless someone is a world record holder in some category.

5/7/2007 9:09:22 PM

They should have all their children taken away, and the parents should go to jail for 20 years. That is just abuse.....end of story !

5/7/2007 9:23:17 PM

^ that's not enough as a deterrent and a lesson.

i think it should either be a life sentence, or capital punishment.

5/7/2007 9:29:50 PM

hell, I remember as a kid my parents leaving us with a baby sitter who would sleep all the time. I also remember playing in the yard and my parents leaving for 30 minutes and returning. nothing ever happened to me. Shit happens.

5/7/2007 9:36:08 PM

Quote :

"i think it should either be a life sentence, or capital punishment."

No, it doesn't warrant that strict of a punishment at all. At most, it'd get reckless endangerment or child neglect: just look at the woman who left her kids in that freezing car for twenty minutes. Good lord, I bet they're already fucking distraught about their kid being missing. If you put this on that level, you're also putting millions of other parents there who've left their kid playing outside for half an hour.

5/7/2007 10:54:37 PM

I think it is pretty obvious that that was sarcasm intended at the post above the one where I said that.

You didn't really think I meant that, did you

And also, this is what i said in my OP:

Quote :

"i hope the girl is safe and everything and is reutrned, but i hope they receive a threat from child services that their kids will be taken away."

5/7/2007 10:57:21 PM

Quote :

""i hope the girl is safe and everything and is reutrned, but i hope they receive a threat from child services that their kids will be taken away"

child services will do a much better job of fucking these kids up if thats all the parents did wrong.

foster homes are far worse

5/7/2007 10:59:17 PM

Quote :

"You didn't really think I meant that, did you "

You started this thread rather grumpily, so of course I did!

5/7/2007 11:03:24 PM

^^

I want to make it clear lest someone makes me out to be a monster or child stealer:

I categorically don't want the kids to be taken away. I just want them to receive a THREAT from child services. That's enough punishment (combined with the trauma of the kid missin for God knows how long).

I am sure they are pretty good parents, good as in loving and all.

But leaving them alone considering all the facts (their ages, the parents are doctors, they didn't use the hotel's childcare facility), just shows some gross negligence.

And their suffering now is enough punishment, along with a letter from child services basically saying if you do that again we will take your children.

I can bet they will never repeat this mistake again, but only because of the kidnapping. Had the kidnapping not taken place, it is pretty much guaranteed that they would have done it again. You know, once you are burnt by fire, you don't play with it again.

5/7/2007 11:12:54 PM

a threat from child services is pointless IMO. unless they are going to actually take the child away, threats are useless. child services has more important children to worry about then issue threats to middle-upper class parents. Too many children in real seriously bad situations that get ignored.

5/7/2007 11:14:20 PM

yeah i realize it is silly/impractical of me to say that.

but as i said, their real punishment is the kidnapping, and which, no, i am not happy about, nor do i think they deserved it, as some people here have accused me of.

5/7/2007 11:17:09 PM

in this day and age, and because of the media, there have become too many chefs in the kitchen.

5/7/2007 11:19:10 PM

ouch

5/7/2007 11:20:00 PM

haha that wasn't directed to you. I was just generalizing that little things these days get so much coverage and force the governments to act and dictate to people how to live their lives or raise their children etc.

5/7/2007 11:24:05 PM

true true

btw, i am not a fan of child services in the US.

sure, they do good things, and take away kids who are being abused, but they have also taken away kids from good parents because of certain agendas.

i remember reading about a muslim couple's 2nd child being taken away and the stated reason was that the child didn't have its own room (was sharing with older sibling).

true story.

wish i had a link.

5/7/2007 11:28:17 PM

^another example is the child (also middle eastern) was taken away from the parents because someone reported sexual abuse since they saw the child kiss the father on the mouth.

5/7/2007 11:29:05 PM

yeah heard of that too.

but you know what's funny? that in hollywood movies they show (white) parents kissing their young children on the mouth. but that's ok.

and there was another one, again with an arab family, where the mother or father was kissing the child on the stomach (child < 3 yrs old) by liting the shirt, apparently in public. and i have heard that that's a tradition among arabs, but i have never seen it.

anyway, that child was taken away too.

LAND OF THE FREE.

DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM FOR ALL.

5/7/2007 11:32:50 PM

My dream is to purchase an island or some such in such a manner that it is in no way property of any sovereign nation and declare it a wholly autonomous and free country and basically set it up like an anarcho-capitalist paradise.

5/7/2007 11:35:13 PM

^i think the pirate bay guys had a similar idea except they purchased an old sea base/rig?

5/7/2007 11:39:52 PM

^^ i think that was supposed to go in to the trillionaire to do list thread in chit chat...?

5/7/2007 11:41:57 PM