Ok, so I thought I knew all about it until the other night at the Durham Bulls game when there was a confusing instance of a pickle.

In this situation, there were men on 1st & 2nd with two outs. The batter hits a double(but it should have been a triple), but the guy who was on 1st stopped at third and the batter didnt see him, so the batter was caught in a pickle in between 2nd and 3rd. While he was in a pickle, the guy on third somehow made it home without a fucking throw, like they werent even paying attention. They tagged the guy (the intial batter) out near 3rd about two or three throws after the other runner scored.

First of all, what would your interpretation be of this situation?

Would the run count?

Once I hear what few of you have to say, I'll tell you what happened.

5/23/2007 4:07:01 PM

i think the run should probably count...im basing this off a play a couple weeks ago where lance berkman got in a pickle between 1st and 2nd with 2 outs and a run scored before he was tagged out

however...berkman was between 1st and 2nd...when he was at bat there was a runner on either 1st or 2nd...but just one runner...so when the runner was headed home, berkman wasnt in any kind of force scenario, ie he couldve gone to 2nd or back to first and not had to worry about another baserunner affecting his eligible bases...but in the case you mentioned, i could imagine that when the runner stopped on 3rd there might be a force at 2nd or something?,/]

5/23/2007 4:10:27 PM

if the runner crosses home before the tag is made, the run counts.

5/23/2007 4:10:59 PM

The run counts if the guy makes it home before the runner is tagged. unless it's a force play.

Right?

5/23/2007 4:11:05 PM

1) pickle is gay. it's a run-down.

2) the run counts if it scores before the tag always.

3) only time run won't count is on a force out at any base.

If the run didn't count it's b/c the runner was called out before without you knowing for going out of the basepaths or something.

[Edited on May 23, 2007 at 4:12 PM. Reason : x]

5/23/2007 4:11:12 PM

Run should count if he crossed the plate before the tag since it wasn't a force out.

5/23/2007 4:11:17 PM

^^^,^^^^yeah i believe thats the case unless its a force...ie runner on 3rd with 2 outs, if you hit a grounder to short stop and the runner touches home plate but you are thrown out at first, it doesnt matter if you're out before or after the runner touches home...the run doesnt count

^^question about basepaths...they're basically the dirt paths that you must stay in, correct? or is it a certain distance or is it a judgement call by the umpire? reason for the question...it seems like nobody is ever called out for running outside the basepath around 3rd if they're hauling ass for home plate and decide to go wide

[Edited on May 23, 2007 at 4:14 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2007 4:12:31 PM

ok so what was the ump's call???

5/23/2007 4:14:18 PM

Other than going to first base, the basepaths are pretty loosely defined. Natural path to the next base is the phrase I think so if you round third you have to take a natural path. In other words you can't stop and dart 5 feet inside of the line all of a sudden ...

5/23/2007 4:15:48 PM

^^^its only if you're trying to avoid a tag, or trying to get in front of a throw or otherwise interfere with play.

[Edited on May 23, 2007 at 4:17 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2007 4:16:44 PM

^^yeah thats what i figured...it seems like the first base path is more narrow than the 1-2 and 2-3 paths because you can run through first but i didnt know the specifics

[Edited on May 23, 2007 at 4:17 PM. Reason : ^^]

5/23/2007 4:17:00 PM

Quote :

"Natural path to the next base is the phrase "

what about rounding first? I was always told to make take a "question mark" when rounding first, bowing out of the base path 2/3's of the way to first in order to have a straight line to second.....but i guess that could be considered natural path.

I've never seen it called unless the player was trying to actively evade or screw up the opposing player.

5/23/2007 4:22:35 PM

OK, listen to this. The run DID NOT count.

The Bulls were the fielding team, but it was obvious that it should have counted. This was on Mother's Day, and the Manager for the other team went apeshit. By this point, they were kicking the shit out of the Bulls, so he didnt protest the call that much.

I just thought it was really odd.

5/23/2007 4:31:41 PM

So what was the official explanation?

5/23/2007 4:40:33 PM

they didnt tell me. I have no idea.

But everyone in the stands was like "WTF, we'll take it". They had already scored like 4 or 5 runs in that inning, so it wasnt a game changing play, but I found it to be really fucking odd.

5/23/2007 4:43:10 PM

^ Interesting!

On a related note, if there is a pop fly and a runner scores before the ball is caught on the third out, the run doesn't count. It has been a long time since I played baseball, but why is this again? They count that run on 1st and 2nd outs, i.e. sac fly.

5/24/2007 11:19:46 AM

^basically the same reason if a run scores before the 3rd out is made at first then the run doesnt count

a pop fly is kind of like a force out

i mean hypothetically if the bases were loaded with 2 outs and a full count (runners would be going) and there was a moonshoot pop fly and 2-3 runners scored before the fielder caught the ball, none of the runs would count

5/24/2007 11:31:27 AM

you have to tag up on a fly ball. So although they start running on the hit when the count is two outs, it is only on the off chance that they drop the fly ball.

5/24/2007 11:34:25 AM

yeah because they have nothing to lose with 2 outs

but it obviously wouldnt be fair to the fielding team if the amount of time a ball was in the air could affect how many runs scored, assuming the fielder did indeed make the catch for the 3rd out

5/24/2007 11:40:27 AM

I have no idea why that call was made, it does appear to be the incorrect call. Anyone who has played or watched baseball for any significant length of time knows that a run scores if it is made before an out that is not a force. However, umpires aren't stupid, especially at the AAA level, so it makes me think that something more may have gone on that the people in the stands didn't know about.

Or it's possible they just screwed up the timing and no one was watching when the runner scored.

Quote :

"question about basepaths...they're basically the dirt paths that you must stay in, correct?"

The baseline is defined as the path from the runner to the next base. Doesn't matter where he is. You can take whatever path to the next base you wish (i.e. you could hit a ball to the wall, round first, run towards the pitcher's mound, then run to second base if you wanted to, and it would be perfectly legal), but once someone attempts to tag you, you must stay in the line from you to the base you are trying to reach safely.

There was actually a crazy play just a few weeks ago in a game I was watching (I forget who, but it was MLB) where the runner was in a rundown between first and second, and he was well on the infield grass, halfway to the pitcher's mound, when he ended up running into one of the defensive players. Every time he switched directions in the rundown, he would turn in and move 5-7 more feet towards home plate/pitcher's mound. When he ran into the defensive player, the umpires (correctly) called interference and awarded him second base. The announcers explained the play by saying that every time the runner switched directions, he established a new baseline for himself. Therefore, even though he was 20 feet inside the line from first to second, he was still "in the baseline."

5/24/2007 12:03:08 PM

^lol

i saw a play last week where some team was going for a 4-3 double play (grounder to 2nd baseman...runner on 1st was stealing...he tried for the tag since he didnt have time to throw to the shortstop covering 2nd)...the runner avoided the tag but it was a nice juke move and not so much darting away from the player...got the force at 1st but a good bit of baserunning

5/24/2007 12:06:23 PM

^^^^ Didn't think of that! Should have, but didn't. Thanks for the reminder.

5/24/2007 12:53:26 PM

yeah, a heterosexual american male should have learned this around age 6

5/24/2007 1:16:03 PM

a new thought on the matter.

If the runner from first STOPPED on third base, the batter (attempting a tripple) can not advance to third while the base is occupied. The batter MUST remain on second base until third base is open. This is in line with the rule about one runner passing another on the basepath, and a dropped third strike running ONLY if first base is open.

The batter may have been called out for atttempting to advance on an occupied base.

However, yes, in a normal circumstance, if the run down occurred between first and second base, and the run scored before the tag it would have counted.
This is why you often see the run down between first and second with the runner attempting to score from third.



[Edited on May 24, 2007 at 1:58 PM. Reason : .]

5/24/2007 1:33:11 PM

^Damn, I didn't think of that. I think bigun may be correct here. In other words, you can't get in a rundown between two bases if another runner is standing on one of the bases. Even though the runner was tagged, it may actually be considered a force-out.

5/24/2007 1:43:01 PM

pretty much all that happened was just like he was thrown out at 3rd going for the tripple.

5/24/2007 1:43:17 PM

^no, if that were the case the run still would have scored. Like when a guy hits a single to drive in a run with two outs, then gets thrown out trying to advance to second on the throw home. The run still counts.

5/24/2007 1:52:24 PM

right, because the run crossed before he was tagged out.

In this specific case, it didn't matter if he was tagged or not, he became out when he rounded second and third was occupied. if the runner on third had ALREADY been attempting to score it would be a different situation. The way it was worded, i believe the runner was actually ON third when the batter made and attempt to get to third, therefor the batter is out before the run scored.


^ In your case, imagine the bases loaded
and the batter hits a shallow single. 1 run scores, everyone advances one base. If the batter rounds first and attempts to get to second, he's out, becuase the runner from First is already there. It's a completely different situation if both the batter and the runner round their bases then return.

Also, I imagine this a rule you don't see called unless someone is just plain STUPID and you end up with two runners on one base, then one is automatically out. Becuase this case had to do with a run being scored, basically the batter got in an "illegal" pickle, if you can call it that, he should have slowed down and got caught between first and second if he really wanted the run to score

[Edited on May 24, 2007 at 2:01 PM. Reason : .]

5/24/2007 1:58:16 PM

Quote :

"In this specific case, it didn't matter if he was tagged or not, he became out when he rounded second and third was occupied"

That's not correct.

If you round second to go to third, but then you see the runner on third, you're not automatically out. You can turn around and go back to second if you want. But if you're tagged before you get there, you're out. The issue I'm wrestling with (and I'm reading the rulebook as we speak!) is whether or not it is a force out if you get tagged out in that situation. If it is, then the run would not score. This may have been what happened in the situation at the Bulls game.

5/24/2007 2:10:43 PM

^^^the run did count didn't it? same thing

5/24/2007 2:12:26 PM

i kinda mentioned the "effective force" with a man on 3rd possibility in my first post

5/24/2007 2:13:19 PM

^^From Panthro:

Quote :

"OK, listen to this. The run DID NOT count."

5/24/2007 2:14:58 PM

Yes I understand he wasn't out as soon as he rounded it, i was trying to dumb it down for people. And I'm not sure about the effective force, b/c Second base is his, no one can force him off of it, just like he can't force the man off of third.

The most likely occurance could be, being tagged out, running out of the base path, being called for interference (in that case he doesn't even have to be tagged, just interfere with the play going on, and there's a million ways that can happen)

5/24/2007 2:21:32 PM

just watch Major League 2.......pedro goes out to save a bird and is tagged out before the runner crosses homeplate. Therefore, the run doesnt count

5/24/2007 3:10:14 PM