My new T-61 Thinkpad arrived yesterday. I'm trying to figure out what security programs to install, given that it's running Vista. I'm using this machine on secured wireless networks at home and on campus, if that matters.

I guess it's not news to anyone on this board that Vista comes with a firewall. I previously used ZoneAlarm, but I've read too many horror stories about the combination of ZA and the new Windows Vista firewall not playing nicely together.

Symantec Antivirus 10.2 through NCSU seems to be an obvious choice, unless I'm mistaken.

Besides that, I've previously used Lavasoft Ad Aware and Spybot S&D. Are those still good choices, now irrelevant, or inferior to something else that's out there.

Thanks for any relevant advice.

8/10/2007 4:30:27 PM

group policy and securely setting up the software you choose to install is all you really need in addition SAV. I actually wrote software that secures your computer for you, pm me for details.

8/10/2007 4:58:00 PM

first thing you should always do with a new thinkpad is install the latest version of thinkvantage software installer and run it to update the drivers

[Edited on August 10, 2007 at 6:08 PM. Reason : ]

8/10/2007 6:07:39 PM

haha the first thing I always do when i get a thinkpad is uninstall all that thinkvantage garbage.

8/10/2007 6:27:26 PM

Quote :

"haha the first thing I always do when i get a thinkpad is uninstall all that thinkvantage garbage."

Worst advice EVER and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and eveeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

1) You risk the chance of ruining vital software on your computer. The ThinkVantage software packages are an integral part of your ThinkPad system (i.e. fingerprint reader, wireless card, vital system recovery partitions, etc...) Let me explain:

Access Connections - All your wireless drivers and wireless connections are controlled by this software. Delete it and you will create more headache searching for drivers or run into issues with windows controlling your wireless profiles.

Active Protection - Your hard drive "air bag" is controlled by this software. NO, you will not find any other software to control the "accelerometer" that implements this protection.

Client Security - Your TPM (trusted platform module) is controlled by this. If you don't care about hardware level security you are welcome to delete this, but trust me, most people find it more helpful than harmful.

Fingerprint Software - This is a big "duh". It's the software for your fingerprint reader. Good luck finding a third party software that will work well with the fingerprint reader.

Power Manager - Delete it and you will have many issues. Customers have run into BSD's (blue screen of death) and power consumption issues by deleting this software. Issues like crappy battery life. The PM software controls processor throttling and other BIOS/hardware level events that you don't want to screw with.

Presentation Director - Don't delete it. You'll need it if you want to ever use that VGA port on your ThinkPad (i.e., for connecting projectors or external monitors). Possible to find other software, but none that work as well.

Rescue and Recovery - DO NOT DELETE. PLEASE DO NOT DELETE. Did I mention that you should NOT DELETE this software? It's your only solution for recovery. Rescue and Recovery is your best friend. I recommend scheduling weekly backups. This software also controls the hidden partition that contains your FACTORY load. If you get rid of this, there is no other way to get back to factory state. You'll be SOL.

System Update - Use it. And use it often. Especially with Vista. We (Lenovo) are coming out with drivers weekly for all Vista equipped systems. It's just the nature of Windows Vista. Lots of bugs = Lots of driver updates.

My point is, ThinkVantage software is critical to the smooth operation of a ThinkPad. They do it that way so that there are less issues. It's easier for them to diagnose and improve their own software implementations than having costumers call up and say "So and so's software doesn't work on my computer." Well, duh, that's why we created this customized and efficient software for our computers. So you don't have to complain other people's software to us. Because it works perfectly fine if you learn how to use it properly.


2) Don't take advice from people who don't know what they're doing. Listen to the guy who works on ThinkPads for a living.


[Edited on August 10, 2007 at 11:38 PM. Reason : Hope this helps ]

8/10/2007 11:26:46 PM

we call 'em stinkpads for a reason.

8/10/2007 11:39:32 PM

^^It helps me be more secure in my knowledge I would never buy an IBM, or now a Lenovo laptop.

Becuase 3/4 of that shit should be implemented COMPLETELY in hardware. Namely the power manager, presentation director, rescue and recovery (speaking about the hidden partition), and active protection

access connections is the shittiest wireless connection manager I've ever used. Ever.

windows already has a system update.

the only thing worth still being there is the fingerprint reader.

And removing all that application shit gains you a noticeable amount of battery life and relieves a tremendous amount of processing strain on the system.

8/11/2007 3:16:40 AM

umm, everything he just talked about were software applications. Unless you're talking about designing an ASIC that manages the VGA port.... why the hell would you do that,... moron

it would be stupid to implement any of that shit in hardware.

[Edited on August 11, 2007 at 8:39 AM. Reason : s]

8/11/2007 8:38:26 AM

Quote :

"^^It helps me be more secure in my knowledge I would never buy an IBM, or now a Lenovo laptop. Becuase 3/4 of that shit should be implemented COMPLETELY in hardware. Namely the power manager, presentation director, rescue and recovery (speaking about the hidden partition), and active protection Obviously you don't understand the advantages of software level control. access connections is the shittiest wireless connection manager I've ever used. Ever. Personal preference. windows already has a system update. Apparently you dont know what System Update does. Hence, my comment about "learn how to use it first". System Update downloads the latest Lenovo software patches and has nothing to do with Windows Updates. the only thing worth still being there is the fingerprint reader. And removing all that application shit gains you a noticeable amount of battery life and relieves a tremendous amount of processing strain on the system. I'll agree if you are talking about back in the days of IBM. But, with the new Santa Rosa Launch, all ThinkVantage Technologies (TVT's) have been revamped under Lenovo. The only piece of software that runs real-time and consumes measurable battery life and processing power is the Client Security software. All other packages consume next to nothing in terms of battery or processing. You're welcome to prove me wrong. Take a ThinkPad system from factory and benchmark it with something like PCMark. Then take the system, remove all TVT software, and then benchmark it. Your measurable performance gain will be next to nothing. You'll find out that the Windows Vista services (i.e., Windows Defender, System Restore, Defragment Scheduler, and many others) have more impact on your computer than all the TVT's in the world."

8/11/2007 10:07:15 AM

pwned in the face

8/11/2007 10:38:45 AM

Disable windows defender and Diskkeeper. The thinkvantage stuff doesn't really impact system performance significantly by comparison.

8/11/2007 10:52:22 AM

Quote :

"1) You risk the chance of ruining vital software on your computer. The ThinkVantage software packages are an integral part of your ThinkPad system (i.e. fingerprint reader, wireless card, vital system recovery partitions, etc...) Let me explain: Access Connections - All your wireless drivers and wireless connections are controlled by this software. Delete it and you will create more headache searching for drivers or run into issues with windows controlling your wireless profiles. incorrect. It all works fine with drivers and wirelesszero Active Protection - Your hard drive "air bag" is controlled by this software. NO, you will not find any other software to control the "accelerometer" that implements this protection. i usually do leave this one Client Security - Your TPM (trusted platform module) is controlled by this. If you don't care about hardware level security you are welcome to delete this, but trust me, most people find it more helpful than harmful. optional, and i dont use it so its gone Fingerprint Software - This is a big "duh". It's the software for your fingerprint reader. Good luck finding a third party software that will work well with the fingerprint reader. optional and only really good for the cool factor Pwer Manager - Delete it and you will have many issues. Customers have run into BSD's (blue screen of death) and power consumption issues by deleting this software. Issues like crappy battery life. The PM software controls processor throttling and other BIOS/hardware level events that you don't want to screw with. i always delete it and never have any issues Presentation Director - Don't delete it. You'll need it if you want to ever use that VGA port on your ThinkPad (i.e., for connecting projectors or external monitors). Possible to find other software, but none that work as well. incorrect. the display change button works the same as it does on all other laptops that have ever had the feature. You can also do it with the windows display settings Rescue and Recovery - DO NOT DELETE. PLEASE DO NOT DELETE. Did I mention that you should NOT DELETE this software? It's your only solution for recovery. Rescue and Recovery is your best friend. I recommend scheduling weekly backups. This software also controls the hidden partition that contains your FACTORY load. If you get rid of this, there is no other way to get back to factory state. You'll be SOL.[ This is pretty nice, but the fact that i cant recover from cd speaks to how shitty lenovo is as a company "

so maybe 2 things out of the 30 odd resident programs are worth keeping.

8/11/2007 1:43:23 PM

Quote :

"incorrect. the display change button works the same as it does on all other laptops that have ever had the feature. You can also do it with the windows display settings "

Thanks for the confirmation on this Shaggy.

Solinari go eat a dick, I was right about the vga.

Quote :

"it would be stupid to implement any of that shit in hardware."

Quote :

"Obviously you don't understand the advantages of software level control."

What, you mean like a critical realtime protection measure like Active Protection? What if your system is hard locked and you drop it? Hell yes I would MUCH rather have a small dedicated controller for this and no it wouldn't be stupid to implement it. The presentation director just ADDS complexity on top of the built-in function-keys. How is that BETTER?

The system recover is garbage too. #1 every system should COME WITH FACTORY RESTORE DISKS. It's absolutely retarded, hell even DELL gives you real CD media and drivers with your system. Plopping everything on a hidden partition with a fancy recovery manager might fly as an additional feature, but otherwise lets call it what it is, namely a cost-cutting measure for Lenovo.

Quote :

"access connections is the shittiest wireless connection manager I've ever used. Ever. Personal preference. "

I will be glad to walk you through the plethora of usability problems with the IBM access connections software that simply are not present in Netgear, Linksys, or D-Link driver managers. Or how the windows wireless zero configuration does a hell of a lot better job. Personal preference based on professional experience.

Quote :

"windows already has a system update. Apparently you dont know what System Update does. Hence, my comment about "learn how to use it first". System Update downloads the latest Lenovo software patches and has nothing to do with Windows Updates."

Apparently you are too dense to get my point. Being that nearly all of the software is either redundant for windows features, or should be implemented in bios and/or dedicated hardware, this is just adding yet another piece of bloat to the system. Why in God's name should you need to update tiny system apps ANYWAY?

Quote :

"You're welcome to prove me wrong. Take a ThinkPad system from factory and benchmark it with something like PCMark. Then take the system, remove all TVT software, and then benchmark it. Your measurable performance gain will be next to nothing. You'll find out that the Windows Vista services (i.e., Windows Defender, System Restore, Defragment Scheduler, and many others) have more impact on your computer than all the TVT's in the world.""

You give me a new thinkpad to bench test and I will gladly do it. I've done it on IBM T4xp's, T6xp's, and X31's. Everyone showed not only a 20+ minute improvement in battery life, but showed significant performance differences in real work benchmarks running rendering and GL performance tests with MentalRay, Vray, 3D Max and Alias StudioTools. Same for Photoshop and Illustrator file operation tests, filter applications, transforms et al.

Now MAYBE with Vista and this new TVT (which sounds eerily just like the IBM preload of old) thinks are drastically different. I'll do some digging and see if anyone reputable has done the legwork to find out. My suspicion is that it's not that the utilities are any less taxing, it's that Vista is that much more taxing and the hardware performance has skyrocketed from the last two generations of Thinpads.

[Edited on August 11, 2007 at 2:23 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2007 2:12:44 PM

i just recently went through my x41t and reformatted it after i created some real window xp pro tablet edition cds

the difference is ridiculous in speed because it only has a 4200 rpm hdd

i cut the number of programs running in half...i only used about 1/3 of the think vantage suite anyway and i kept those programs

the only thing that i might reinstall is the keyboard customizer so i can make one of the alt keys the window key

8/11/2007 2:31:21 PM

no one is arguing whether or not it would be faster or "better" (short-term anyway) to implement all kinds of shit in hardware - hell, even MS Windows would be so sweet if it was printed on silicon

but hey - guess what, good luck spending billions of dollars creating all those custom chips and LOL @ you trying to issue a security patch to a bunch of ASICs out there

Fact is, its a lot cheaper, more efficient, and more patchable to implement these types of utilities with software/firmware.

You should stick to using/fixing/installing technology. Leave the actual design process to others more suited.

8/11/2007 3:20:09 PM

^if you are security patching basic system functionality (active protection, recovery) then someone screwed the pooch to begin with.

And your comparison to Windows is fucking retarded on a 1000 levels.

There's a huge difference between application level software (what we are talking about) and firmware (what I am proposing).

I don't even know what you do, but I pray to god its some monkey level development, because if they let you into system architecture it would be a nightmare.

8/11/2007 4:49:00 PM

haha nice try backpedaling

Quote :

"3/4 of that shit should be implemented COMPLETELY in hardware."

you proposed implementing this shit (completely even) in hardware. if youd've meant firmware, you'd have said firmware.

Quote :

"if you are security patching basic system functionality (active protection, recovery) then someone screwed the pooch to begin with."

Only a blithering moron would be so secure in his design that he'd think that it wouldn't ever need a patch.

Like I just said,

Quote :

"Fact is, its a lot cheaper, more efficient, and more patchable to implement these types of utilities with software/firmware."

which is (strangely enough!) what they're implemented with right now, and which you seem to have a problem with



[Edited on August 11, 2007 at 6:40 PM. Reason : s]

8/11/2007 6:34:08 PM

Whenever I get a new PC I reformat and install my own tried and true programs.

The last time I got a virus on my computer was half a decade ago.

8/11/2007 8:48:24 PM

Quote :

"you proposed implementing this shit (completely even) in hardware. if youd've meant firmware, you'd have said firmware."

Talk about backpedaling.

Because you know, every fucking hardware component in a modern PC doesn't have an onboard firmware? Seriously dude.

Quote :

"Only a blithering moron would be so secure in his design that he'd think that it wouldn't ever need a patch."

Amazingly I've now owned two laptops, each for more than 3 years apiece whose utility drivers haven't needed a single patch or update. I can see the justification for patching the Client Security. Maybe the fingerprint software. But in neither case do I see the need for ANOTHER utility to tell you that you can update something.

Quote :

"which is (strangely enough!) what they're implemented with right now, and which you seem to have a problem with"

No diptard, I have a problem with basic system functions that require application level installations. But keep on arguing, knowing the majority of the world doesn't agree with you.

Dell for instance (you know the largest OEM in the US) has done exactly this. Removed the bloat and admitted to the fact that none of their preinstalled utilities are actually necessary. Granted it's only in their XPS line so far, but at least there is acknowledgement of the problem.

8/12/2007 3:13:01 AM

Quote :

"3/4 of that shit should be implemented COMPLETELY in hardware."

its hard to argue with a deliberately capitalized word

Quote :

"Amazingly I've now owned two laptops, each for more than 3 years apiece whose utility drivers haven't needed a single patch or update."

really? you've never updated your BIOS in 6 years worth of laptop ownership? that's more negligence on your part, than good coding on theirs. oh wait, let me guess, you're starting to backtrack again and shift definitions ... "uhh... i was talking about security updates to uhh... specific utilities only..."

Quote :

"I have a problem with basic system functions that require application level installations."

you're speaking non-sense now, all of the functions we're talking about require human interaction and as long as there's a need for a human to input something, you're going to have to have a GUI and hence an application for it (in windows at least). whether you use the built in windows utilities or a standalone and more efficient third-party app to interface with the very firmware you claim to be championing all along, doesn't matter, you still need something.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 8:15 AM. Reason : s]

8/12/2007 8:14:20 AM

have to say i like access connections - i find it much more reliable than the WZC service (zero configuration my ass)

active protection software is pretty essential (and it occupies 580K of ram)

client security solution is only useful if you use the fingerprint reader

i don't bother with rescue and recovery - i deleted the hidden partition and ordered the restore CDs instead

to answer the orig question: i'd go with lightweight anti-virus software and just keep up with the windows updates and not worry about a firewall

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 10:39 AM. Reason : .]

8/12/2007 10:38:28 AM

put linux on it

8/12/2007 10:40:05 AM

btw, they will send you the restore cds for free if you ask for them within 30-90 days of purchasing the laptop

8/12/2007 11:33:55 AM

Quote :

"really? you've never updated your BIOS in 6 years worth of laptop ownership? that's more negligence on your part, than good coding on theirs. oh wait, let me guess, you're starting to backtrack again and shift definitions ... "uhh... i was talking about security updates to uhh... specific utilities only...""

Yep, really. Never updated the BIOS on either one. No reason to, it worked fine when I bought it, I've had no issues, and the only upgrades have been memory and hard drive.

Neither have my roomates in their 5 years of owning their Dell laptops. Never been a problem for them either.

Quote :

"you're speaking non-sense now, all of the functions we're talking about require human interaction and as long as there's a need for a human to input something, you're going to have to have a GUI and hence an application for it (in windows at least). whether you use the built in windows utilities or a standalone and more efficient third-party app to interface with the very firmware you claim to be championing all along, doesn't matter, you still need something. "

The airbag system should require 0 input.

The director and access connections are both redundant (though if we are talking about Vista here, I can see the use in it, because of the wacked as fuck networking ui) and recovery doesn't need to be there at all, give them the disks. The power manager is also potentially redundant, though I will reserve judgement until I get a chance to really see if it does anything worthwhile.

I've already said the client security and fingerprint are the two exceptions and worth keeping on a app level implementation, being they are security functions and will likely need updates.

8/12/2007 1:01:29 PM

Quote :

"btw, they will send you the restore cds for free if you ask for them within 30-90 days of purchasing the laptop "

I don't know who lied to you about that, but you have to PURCHASE them by calling support

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-4M7HWZ
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-53636.html

Of course, they are the only parts you cant just order online. But all the pricing I could find points to $60 bucks for the recovery set. Of course Lenovo's stance is to make your OWN copy.

8/12/2007 1:09:26 PM

^ Except when you call them they send them to you for free because it's cheaper than overnighting your computer back and forth. There's a difference between policy and practice. They've sent dozens of the bookstore's customers free restore CD's years after purchase. Listen to people who speak from experience as opposed to their asses.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 1:24 PM. Reason : ]

8/12/2007 1:23:44 PM

What the fuck are you attacking me for? I'm not talking out of my ass, I was using THEIR POLICY.

He stated 30-90 days like it was policy. I responded with their actual policy which STATES you have to purchase the stuff.

You come in with actual backup, that's great. But that just reiterates my point. The on-disk recovery is worthless, because the average consumer isn't going to need or use it until their hard drive FAILS, making it worthless to them. Only THEN will they get their recovery CD's for free, still having to wait for them to arrive to be able to fix their computer.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 1:32 PM. Reason : .]

8/12/2007 1:31:42 PM

yea they don't exactly make it publically available info that you can get for free - you have a very limited window of time though to get them - either 30 or 90 days after purchase

this was their policy 6 mo ago anyway

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 1:41 PM. Reason : s]

8/12/2007 1:40:06 PM

i'm thinking of getting one of these:

http://tinyurl.com/3xgvnt

seems to be one of the few t61p models with a full IWS warranty

i've had this t41 for over 3 years now

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 3:39 PM. Reason : tinyurl]

8/12/2007 3:38:36 PM

i called and got my restore cds almost a year after i purchased the computer

i dont know if they charged me or not

i never gave them any credit card info

8/12/2007 4:00:42 PM

I like how we went from this:

Quote :

"Becuase 3/4 of that shit should be implemented COMPLETELY in hardware. Namely the power manager, presentation director, rescue and recovery (speaking about the hidden partition), and active protection access connections is the shittiest wireless connection manager I've ever used. Ever."

to this:

Quote :

"The director and access connections are both redundant (though if we are talking about Vista here, I can see the use in it, because of the wacked as fuck networking ui) and recovery doesn't need to be there at all, give them the disks. The power manager is also potentially redundant, though I will reserve judgement until I get a chance to really see if it does anything worthwhile."

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 4:12 PM. Reason : s]

8/12/2007 4:11:38 PM

Quote :

"Only THEN will they get their recovery CD's for free"

Wrong. Pretty much anyone can get free recovery CD's for calling. The only reason you wouldn't get them is calling and saying "I want the recovery CD's" and then when they say "What's the problem with the system" you say "Nothing." If you tell them you need to re-install the OS (true or not) they'll just send you the CD's. Why? Because it's cheaper to send you a few bucks of CD's than it is to spend an hour on the phone trying to figure out what's wrong with your system or to have your system airmailed back.

Customers routinely get free restore CD's years after they purchased the system with absolutely no hassle. Case in point, aficionado. Heck, even if you call and just ask for CD's without implying anything is wrong they'll usually send them free.

8/12/2007 5:43:09 PM

Awesome

So the question then becomes, why not just add the option when purchasing a machine, or just include them automatically?

Then there's no need for the hidden partition taking up space, or the whole utility application.

Solinari keep on trolling. I haven't changed my story or backpedaled whatsoever. fingerprint reader and the client security (2 out of 8, or 3/4) are valid utilities. The rest are redundant or unnecessary.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 6:00 PM. Reason : .]

8/12/2007 5:58:54 PM

you're all a bunch of fucking nerds

8/12/2007 6:03:11 PM

Aside from neon's moot points...

From a marketing standpoint, ThinkPad's come with Lenovo's ThinkVantage software for one reason: Business Productivity.

Lenovo (formerly IBM) is a company which focuses it's product primarily towards businesses (Corportate and Small Business). And from a business standpoint, they can save money by not having to purchase extra software to manage security, manage backup solutions, and software updates, other productivity solutions. And that's the whole reasoning behind all the extra fancy software that neon so passionately hates.

If Lenovo's products were more geared towards consumers, who pick and choose their own software, then most of the software would not be included. And Lenovo would be saving a heck of a lot of money. Hence companies like Toshiba comes with productivity software packages like... ummm... uhhh... NOTHING. And the same goes for most other consumer brands from my experience. There's your reasoning for the software whether you hate it or like it.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 7:01 PM. Reason : end of story]

8/12/2007 6:53:46 PM

Quote :

"Awesome So the question then becomes, why not just add the option when purchasing a machine, or just include them automatically? "

Uhhhh.... because that would be extra money that they obviously don't need to spend seeing as not everyone asks for the CDs after the fact. its a cost-saving measure in an industry with razor-thin profit margins. does this really need to be spelled out to you? jesus christ.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 8:09 PM. Reason : s]

8/12/2007 8:09:18 PM

Quote :

"And from a business standpoint, they can save money by not having to purchase extra software to manage security, manage backup solutions, and software updates, other productivity solutions. And that's the whole reasoning behind all the extra fancy software that neon so passionately hates. "

This is so fucking retarded. Any business is going to immediately install Symantec, put it on domain control and install productivity software.

Are you really this daft? I can't think of any business that relies on hidden partition recovery. In fact, I'd venture to say most companies with a real IT department will immediately ghost the hard drive and put a fresh install of windows on it.

The applications we are talking about don't handle ANYTHING you are referring to.

Quote :

"If Lenovo's products were more geared towards consumers, who pick and choose their own software, then most of the software would not be included. And Lenovo would be saving a heck of a lot of money. Hence companies like Toshiba comes with productivity software packages like... ummm... uhhh... NOTHING. And the same goes for most other consumer brands from my experience. There's your reasoning for the software whether you hate it or like it."

You do realize every company includes shit bricks tons of preinstalled shit on consumer PC's right? It's the BUSINESS and gaming PC's that are now finally being delivered more sterile. Dear god man, check your shit.

^

Quote :

"Uhhhh.... because that would be a shitload of extra money they obviously don't need to spend seeing as not everyone asks for the CDs after the fact. its a cost-saving measure. does this really need to be spelled out to you? jesus christ. "

Um, you are the one justifying the VALIDITY of including all these added software packages. My point from the beginning is this shit is redundant and just used to save Lenovo money. Maybe you would like to go back and read again.

You don't have to ask for a user manual with your car either, it comes with it because its blatantly fucking obvious it should. You already pay a premium for a Lenovo laptop, and they make it all but impossible to just GET the damn media, instead opting to install more superfluous software and reduce your storage capacity.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 8:13 PM. Reason : .]

8/12/2007 8:09:29 PM

yes, they come with lots of pre-installed sponsored shit.

man you're really fucking stupid if you're confusing obviously sponsored shit and the business productivity apps that xvang is talking about

Quote :

" Um, you are the one justifying the VALIDITY of including all these added software packages. My point from the beginning is this shit is redundant and just used to save Lenovo money. Maybe you would like to go back and read again. "

I'm justifying the validity of the apps. It flies in the face of all reason if you think that these apps are developed and maintained in an effort to "save money" - that doesn't even make any sense.

Now, obviously the CDs aren't delivered by default in an effort to trim some fat from the expense side.

Quote :

"they make it all but impossible to just GET the damn media,"

True, they didn't consider how crippling a phone-call must be to a nerd who spends his life on the internet and can't fathom extending his communication beyond a webpage form.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 8:21 PM. Reason : s]

8/12/2007 8:10:43 PM

Quote :

"business productivity apps that xvang is talking about"

What business productivity? You mean the FINGERPRINT READER? Or the ACTIVE PROTECTION? Or the POWER MANAGER?

Please tell me which one of the eight applications we have been talking about can be classed as "business productivity". PLEASE DO TELL. Last I checked, this referred to applications that can DO WORK.

8/12/2007 8:14:50 PM

don't forget about the presentation manager

8/12/2007 8:18:29 PM

you mean the one that overlaps the built in windows functionality?

8/12/2007 8:21:58 PM

oh this windows functionality, which is implemented COMPLETELY in hardware? haha back at u

8/12/2007 8:23:42 PM

it sure isn't a user level application. and seeing that we can't (reliably) remove core OS components, I don't see how it makes a difference. The functionality is there, out of the box.

8/12/2007 8:30:02 PM

oh because a minute ago you seemed to be saying that it was total shit if it wasn't implemented COMPLETELY in hardware.....

Noen:

Quote :

"that shit should be implemented COMPLETELY in hardware."

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 8:35 PM. Reason : s]

8/12/2007 8:31:24 PM

somebody please put this thread out of its misery

8/12/2007 8:32:15 PM

im completely okay with that. xvang is amazing at coming in with retarded misinformation and flawed logic.

8/12/2007 8:33:21 PM

Wow , the debate rages on...

Quote :

"This is so fucking retarded. Any business is going to immediately install Symantec, put it on domain control and install productivity software. Are you really this daft? I can't think of any business that relies on hidden partition recovery. In fact, I'd venture to say most companies with a real IT department will immediately ghost the hard drive and put a fresh install of windows on it. The applications we are talking about don't handle ANYTHING you are referring to. "

When did Symantec enter this debate? We all know Symantec is the "Microsoft" of anti-virus software. Everyone uses it.

Are YOU really this daft? Most businesses, schools, and government organizations purchase ThinkPads purely for the preloaded TVT's. Lenovo markets their products to these groups purely based on these tools. Why else would Lenovo waste millions and millions of dollars developing this software?

A quick lesson in the PC business will tell you that most sales (and profit) are made from business/government market and not the consumer market (excluding Apple and their precious "i" products). The consumer market only accounts for a small percentage of the sales.

A business comprises of more than just slapping pre-made parts together underneath some fancy plastic/metal coverings. Because when you think about it, the hardware is all the same. An Intel CPU is an Intel CPU. An Nvidia graphics card is an Nvidia graphics card. If every company did that then all their products would be the same. Apparently you don't work at Lenovo or any other PC company.

Quote :

"You do realize every company includes shit bricks tons of preinstalled shit on consumer PC's right? It's the BUSINESS and gaming PC's that are now finally being delivered more sterile. Dear god man, check your shit."

Your vision is skewed on your unyielding preference for Dell/HP/Acer/(insert preferred PC vendor here). And in fact, Lenovo's consumer line (aka "Lenovo 3000 series") comes with all the same exact TVT's. It's just renamed under a package called "Lenovo Care". I can't say the same for other vendors.

Quote :

"You don't have to ask for a user manual with your car either, it comes with it because its blatantly fucking obvious it should. You already pay a premium for a Lenovo laptop, and they make it all but impossible to just GET the damn media, instead opting to install more superfluous software and reduce your storage capacity."

YOU CAN CREATE YOU OWN PIECE OF CRAP CD'S FROM RESCUE AND RECOVERY! SO CAN WE SHUTUP ABOUT THE STUPID CD'S!!!

Your passion to win some online debate preceeds your actual knowledge and accentuates your ignorance. I hope you're not working in the IT field.

[Edited on August 12, 2007 at 11:05 PM. Reason : I'm done with my "retarded" statements. Apparently some people don't understand simple logic.]

8/12/2007 10:54:56 PM

Why do you people even argue with Noen. He's the most opinionated and self-indulging person on the Internet.

Also, he's completely wrong about the concept of completely hardware vs. software. No, most companies don't image/wipe out employee laptops. The tools are there for a reason, which is why MOST companies have vendor specific contracts/AMCs/SLAs so that they need to familiarize themselves with only one vendor's tools.

8/12/2007 10:59:25 PM

Quote :

"Are YOU really this daft? Most businesses, schools, and government organizations purchase ThinkPads purely for the preloaded TVT's. Lenovo markets their products to these groups purely based on these tools. Why else would Lenovo waste millions and millions of dollars developing this software? A quick lesson in the PC business will tell you that most sales (and profit) are made from business/government market and not the consumer market (excluding Apple and their precious "i" products). The consumer market only accounts for a small percentage of the sales. Apparently you don't work at Lenovo or any other PC company."

You claimed these to be PRODUCTIVITY applications. And to even imply that MOST any organization chooses ThinkPads because of these utilities is RETARDED. Back this up with something or shut the hell up.

I've been involved in purchasing for multiple scale organizations, and preloaded enterprise utilities like the ones being discussed in this thread have never been more than a secondary factor. The SUPPORT, build quality, reliability and Middleware/Enterprise services are what sell Lenovo systems to business. Don't kid yourself.

And Lenovo is #3, behind HP/Compaq and Dell, both of whom have HUGE stakes in the consumer market. Dell is currently about 85% business 15% consumer, based on revenues, but they are pushing the consumer market HARD, because the business market is fairly stagnant.

Quote :

"A business comprises of more than just slapping pre-made parts together underneath some fancy plastic/metal coverings. Because when you think about it, the hardware is all the same. An Intel CPU is an Intel CPU. An Nvidia graphics card is an Nvidia graphics card. If every company did that then all their products would be the same. Apparently you don't work at Lenovo or any other PC company."

I'm well aware of this. I'm also well aware of what actually sells units. It's support, percieved reliability, build quality, and for businesses, secondary service offerings.

Quote :

"Your vision is skewed on your unyielding preference for Dell/HP/Acer/(insert preferred PC vendor here). And in fact, Lenovo's consumer line (aka "Lenovo 3000 series") comes with all the same exact TVT's. It's just renamed under a package called "Lenovo Care". I can't say the same for other vendors."

Hardly. I love Lenovo/IBM laptops. Always have loved them. I've sold or made purchasing decisions for hundreds of machines. I've also sold tons of Dell units. I've sold quite a few Toshiba's. All in business settings. They all have great business units, that tend to specialize in different market segments and scales.

My entire gripe with this thread is your absurd assertion that these addon utilities are a) critical for stability, b) have no effect on battery life or system performance and c) offer the best options to the consumer.

Quote :

"YOU CAN CREATE YOU OWN PIECE OF CRAP CD'S FROM RESCUE AND RECOVERY! SO CAN WE SHUTUP ABOUT THE STUPID CD'S!!! Your passion to win some online debate preceeds your actual knowledge and accentuates your ignorance. I hope you're not working in the IT field."

Assuming the person even knows they can do this, you and I both know most people WONT until after something goes wrong. It's silly from so many angles to ask your customer to make their own recovery media and everyone knows it.

on the second statement. I respond to what you say, nothing more. I've been in the IT field for a long time and have hundreds of satisfied customers, respected coworkers and associates. My enjoyment of debate and discussion in no way makes me ignorant or unknowledgable. In this thread, like most every other, I back up my statements with facts and figures that are verifiable. Can you do the same?

Quote :

"No, most companies don't image/wipe out employee laptops. The tools are there for a reason, which is why MOST companies have vendor specific contracts/AMCs/SLAs so that they need to familiarize themselves with only one vendor's tools."

No, and most companies don't give a shit about enterprise tools or have vendor specific contracts. The majority of companies in this country have fewer than 25 employees and no dedicated IT or hardware vendor contracts.

But we are talking about the guys that do. And yes they image/wipe their machines as needed. And yes I complete agree with you on the second part. For enterprise, Lenovo offers a TON of awesome services, support and tools. Those dont have anything to do with the trivial utilities we are talking about here, except for the Client Security and possibly the fingerprint software.

8/12/2007 11:38:32 PM

Quote :

"Any business is going to immediately install Symantec, put it on domain control and install productivity software. Are you really this daft? I can't think of any business that relies on hidden partition recovery. In fact, I'd venture to say most companies with a real IT department will immediately ghost the hard drive and put a fresh install of windows on it."

You backpedaled again. Come back when you get the definition of "most companies" and/or "business" right. Also, I don't think we imply small business/SOHO when we say 'enterprise'.

8/12/2007 11:43:25 PM