So here's the latest Law Enforcement vs. Civil Liberties brouhaha

The FBI is asking for the public's assistance in helping them identify two men who were reportedly "acting suspiciously" on Washington State commuter ferries recently.

The two men are reported to have been showing "more than the average interest in the working parts of the ferry” and were reported to have been "taking photos" of the ferries, the specifics of which the FBI declines to describe. There are reports that these two men may have been doing this on more than one ferry.

their suspicious behavior was reported by at least one crew member, who took the men's photos, and perhaps one or more passengers.

The FBI is asking all regional media (newspapers, television) to publish the men's photographs, in their request for public assistance in identifying them. Most television news stations have complied with that request.



http://q13.trb.com/news/kcpq-082007-ferryphotos,0,4534536.story
http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_082007WAB_suspicious_ferry_passengers_TP.53aaa2a3.html


The Seattle Post-Intelligencer, however, has refused to publish the photos of the men. They did publish the story, just not the photos. This was the decision of the editor and staff, and they defend their decision on the grounds that basic civil liberties overrides the FBI request because the men are not suspects or persons of interest of any crime, nor has any crime even been committed.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/thebigblog/archives/120406.asp

that the Seattle P-I has refused to publish the pictures has attracted the attention and derision of certain conservative blogs, including LittleGreenFootballs

Quote :

" SEATTLE – The FBI is asking for the public’s help to identify two men who have been seen acting suspiciously aboard Washington State ferries recently. The FBI released a bulletin late Monday, including photographs of the two men. One of the photos shows the men side-by-side and the other is a solo shot of one of them. They were snapped by a ferry employee who thought the pair acted suspiciously. “They had more than the average interest in the working parts of the ferry, the layout of the ferry, the size of it — more than you would see in normal passenger,” said FBI spokesperson Robbie Burroughs. The FBI says the men were seen on more then one ferry and more than one run over the past several weeks. They were also taking photos of parts of the boat, which the agents won’t reveal, but that apparently aroused the suspicions of passengers and crew alike. Anyone who knows the men or there whereabouts are asked to call the FBI at (206) 622-0460. UPDATE at 8/21/07 7:45:09 am: The left-wing Seattle Post-Intelligencer has refused to publish the FBI’s photos of the two men. The Seattle P-I is not publishing the photos because neither man is considered a suspect nor has either been charged with a crime. http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=26742_FBI_Searches_for_Suspicious_Ferry_Passengers "

Background context: the WA State Ferry system transports more than 25 million people per year around Puget Sound -- more than Amtrak does nationwide, and more than New York City's ferry system. It has been identified as a significant target for potential terrorist attacks.

this whole thing just opens up so many questions... but I want to wait and see where the discussion goes.





[Edited on August 23, 2007 at 2:59 AM. Reason : ]

8/23/2007 2:48:50 AM

If I weren't a terrorist (i'm not...) and my pic were posted in all of a locale's media, i'd get a kick out of seeing it everywhere. I'd even look forward to doing some TV interviews or something.

As long as they don't Rendition them, or ruin their lives, the FBI can ask people to post some pics, and people should feel comfortable to decline, but it's far from the worse way to try and find some people.

This is assuming though the information to make this request is from competent and reliable sources, and considering the nature of this thread, i'm guessing it's not.

8/23/2007 3:02:19 AM

moron makes a good point.

8/23/2007 3:18:00 AM

They are Arabs, so le duh of course they are tourists turrists. (confused them with the Japs, who are the tourists).

(They look Moroccan/Algerian/Tunisian to me. They are definitely not Gulf Arabs, and neither do they look Levantine Arabs.)

8/23/2007 3:45:32 AM

Haven't you guys seen the Bourne Ultimatum?

Grab Team 1 will ruin your shit if you try to give any interviews over something like this.

8/23/2007 7:31:56 AM

I was detained for taking pictures on a ferry. Odd as hell. Couldn't we just wait until at least one blows up to start fucking with people?

8/23/2007 8:34:36 AM

he could have at least worn an obnoxious shirt

8/23/2007 8:43:58 AM

WHAT FUCKING CIVIL LIBERTIES? THEY WERE IN A PUBLIC PARK! YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO PRIVACY IN PUBLIC!

8/23/2007 9:07:29 AM

i think it's not that big of a deal the fbi is asking to do this if all they say is true. i also don't think it's that big of a deal that the newspaper isn't posting them. it's their decision.

8/23/2007 9:11:02 AM

^ Exactly.

I don't see this as an infringement on civil liberties whatsoever though.

8/23/2007 9:12:45 AM

Since when do terrorists wear such snazzy jackets?

[Edited on August 23, 2007 at 9:56 AM. Reason : what now?]

8/23/2007 9:46:50 AM

When they could spell

8/23/2007 9:52:19 AM

it doesn't seem that bad to me.....but it also doesn't seem very bad that the seattle paper doesn't want to publish the photo's.

8/23/2007 9:52:43 AM

Well at least the FBI is paying more attention.

If only they had investigated a little more closely the concerns of the flying schools in 2000 who had students who looked a lot like these fellows and who wanted to learn only how to fly..and not land or take off.

8/23/2007 10:34:00 AM

OK, maybe I'm turning into SalisburyGuthBoy here or something ... but i find this disturbing.

that the FBI would ask regional media to display some photos of some guys who someone else thought was "suspicious", and that most media would go along with it unquestionably... by posting their photos, these guys are set up for all sorts of possible discrimination and worse

these guys could very well be some tourists from Texas who really dug their ferry trip.

what makes them "suspicious looking" anyhow? that they're swarthy? that one has a scowl? maybe hes scowling because motherfuckers are staring at him and taking his picture.

all this scaremongering just leads us into a state where we're desensitized about the presumption of innocence to the point that we're ready to lock someone down because some nosy bastard thinks they might be thinking about a crime.

8/23/2007 10:42:38 AM

Quote :

"all this scaremongering just leads us into a state where we're desensitized about the presumption of innocence to the point that we're ready to lock someone down because some nosy bastard thinks they might be thinking about a crime. "

I could see that too, but what gets me is the paper(s) that didn't publish the photos being made out to be somehow non-american.

8/23/2007 10:55:15 AM

joe...don't you think they would have found them by now if they were just normal citizens, obviously if they can't find them and they won't come forth than somthing suspicious might be taking place....

8/23/2007 11:08:14 AM

or (continuing his tourist theory), they've already gone home and aren't aware that there's a manhunt going on for them in seattle...

8/23/2007 11:10:44 AM

both sides of this argument are gigantic non-issues.

it's not a big deal that the FBI are trying to figure out who they are.
It's not a big deal that the seattle paper didn't post their pictures.

8/23/2007 11:28:04 AM

^ Agreed.

Quote :

"I could see that too, but what gets me is the paper(s) that didn't publish the photos being made out to be somehow non-american."

I'm trying to figure out where you're getting that impression from, 'cause I don't see it.

[Edited on August 23, 2007 at 11:29 AM. Reason : Gotta agree with Bobby.]

8/23/2007 11:28:31 AM

^it was more from some of the reader comments:

Quote :

"The PI, however, stands on the principle that we're all better off with our heads in the sand so that when an attack does occur, and innocent families and commuters die, it can lead us in the exercise of blaming ourselves for the violence perpetrated by others...like possibly the men in the photos they won't publish. Thank you, PI. "

maybe unamerican was a bit extreme....bad citizens would perhaps be better.

8/23/2007 11:45:52 AM

the guy in the grey fleece looks suspicious as hell in that picture

8/23/2007 11:58:04 AM

He looks like some weird guy he doesn't know is taking his picture.

8/23/2007 1:50:22 PM

the other guy doesnt look nearly as suspicious of the crew member taking his picture

8/23/2007 1:53:08 PM

Quote :

"OK, maybe I'm turning into SalisburyGuthBoy here or something ... but i find this disturbing."

In principle and in most situations, I'm with you. I'm more prone to err on the side of freedom and denying excessive government "big brotherism".

In this particular case, though, I'm inclined to side with the FBI. I've done some reading about the terrorist threat to the WA ferry system lately, since I ride the ferries on a somewhat regular basis, and I think some shit is going on (as in at least some level of pre-operation planning).

The problem is that I can't remember what is classified and what isn't (a lot of the reading I did was on a SIPRNET computer at work, and I discussed it with another officer in a secret workspace, so I need to check and see if that stuff is open source before I go talking about it on here.

At any rate, I have seen a number of specifics regarding this that you didn't mention in your post (and I KNOW I saw some of them on an open source website). I'll try to find those links on Google and post them. I suppose that none of it is an absolute smoking gun, but all that I've seen, when considered together, paints a quite suspicious picture, at least in my mind...I mean, suspicious enough that I plan on having my .45 in the trunk from now on when I'm on the ferry. I don't expect anything to happen, and I'll continue riding the ferries, but I'll have my eyes more open next time I ride.

On the other hand, I don't blame the Post-Intelligencer for not publishing the photos, especially if the FBI really didn't fill them in on ANY details.




Finally, there are couple of scenarios that I think it could be besides planning for a potential ferry attack.

1. Probing of defenses...see the nature of the response when a potential threat is identified.
2. I wonder if it might be an attempt by CAIR or a similar group to fish for a lawsuit, etc.

8/23/2007 3:06:14 PM

http://dwb.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/6087028p-5336674c.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003847538_ferries22m.html

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=ferry10m&date=20041010

8/23/2007 3:10:30 PM

I don't understand how this is supposed to work.

The FBI puts out pictures, somebody recognizes the guys, and calls them in (and the FBI trusts that the person who called it in isn't going to do anything stupid). And once the FBI tracks them down, they...follow them, tap their phones, investigate their friends and families, bring them in for questioning, just check out their names...? What do they do exactly?

8/23/2007 7:05:34 PM

I'd guess they would look them up, see if they had a criminal record, see if they were in any type of terrorist database, etc, or just see if it was a mistake or coincidence

[Edited on August 23, 2007 at 8:09 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2007 8:09:18 PM

Perhaps when this all blows over and it turns out the FBI just wasted the time of two tourists who have not been on a ferry before that they will avoid pulling public stunts like this in the future. Looks like two semi-brown people who got reported to the FBI for being tourists.

Just a guess though. Maybe I'm wrong...

8/23/2007 9:18:12 PM

Quote :

"I'd guess they would look lock them up, see regardless if they had a criminal record, see if they were add their names in any type of terrorist database, etc, or just see refuse to ever admit if it was a mistake or coincidence"

sorry, that was too easy. i couldn't not do it.

8/23/2007 9:28:37 PM

*sigh*

8/23/2007 9:50:41 PM

^^^ The second article posted by duke seems to imply it's the same two people on multiple incidents. If they're just tourists who've never been on a ferry before, they've got some bad short term memory problems.

8/23/2007 10:59:18 PM

Public Transportation Riddled with. . .

/message_topic.aspx?topic=483963

Don't worry, schmoe, if those guys try to do anything evil, you and some of the other folks in Seattle can just use diplomacy.

Wait. . .I've pinpointed the problem:

Quote :

"The Seattle Post-Intelligencer is one of two daily newspapers in Seattle, Washington, United States, the other being the Seattle Times. The P-I is widely perceived to be more liberal than the Times."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Post-Intelligencer

[Edited on August 24, 2007 at 12:45 AM. Reason : Right?]

8/24/2007 12:39:42 AM

Here is a snippet that 1337 b4k4 is referring too:

Quote :

"Gomez said employees and passengers reported the incidents over several weeks this summer. In at least one instance, they asked questions about ferry operations, Gomez said. It wasn't until analysts looked through the reports that a pattern was seen, he said. Since then, the FBI has concluded "four to six" of the incidents were related and involved the same two men. Several other similar incidents were reported, but analysts could not conclude they involved the same men."

8/24/2007 5:07:52 PM

Quote :

"joe...don't you think they would have found them by now if they were just normal citizens, obviously if they can't find them and they won't come forth than somthing suspicious might be taking place...."

i dont know. you know, i want my local ferries (and our national infrastructure) to be safe from attack as much as anyone else.

but i want to believe the FBI has more resources than resorting to putting suspected terrorist photos on milk cartons.

I mean, anytime someone "looks suspicious" we're going to post WANTED signs on every telephone pole and round up a posse with pitchforks and torches?



[Edited on August 24, 2007 at 5:20 PM. Reason : ]

8/24/2007 5:12:10 PM

if you'd read the articles, you'd find out that several people on several different ferries reported these men as acting suspicious. I'd say that's a good reason to check up on these fellows...

8/24/2007 6:00:58 PM

In case I'm being misunderstood here...

I never once said the FBI shouldnt be investigating people they determine as being suspicious, people who, by their activities, fit a profile of known criminal behavior patterns.

That is their job. It's what they get paid to do, and it's what i like to assume they're doing ... within their jurisdiction, following applicable laws, and respecting of constitutional rights.

What i don't think they should be doing is posting "Have You Seen Me??" photos on our milk cartons. Because this invites all sorts of undemocratic associations, instills a police state-mentality and desensitizes us to constitutionally protected civil rights.




[Edited on August 24, 2007 at 6:25 PM. Reason : ]

8/24/2007 6:21:53 PM

8/24/2007 8:21:19 PM

so please, then, joe_retard, explain to me how these 2 men, by their actions didn't seem suspicious, given that on multiple occasions, multiple people reported them as acting suspiciously...

8/24/2007 8:47:21 PM

^^^ In that case, and this is a serious question, what other methods do you propose the FBI use to locate these individuals?

I suppose they could examine the passenger mannifests for all the ferrys, but certainly that would be a violation of the privacy of all the other passengers and may not lead to much if people routinely take the same ferry route during the week.

They could also just station undercover agents on all the ferrys until they find these guys again, but that's a whole lot of man power and it operates on the assumption they will ride those ferrys again.

So like I said, what method do you propse they use to locate these individuals?

8/24/2007 9:43:47 PM

They look guilty.

8/24/2007 10:01:47 PM

If we're nice to those two guys, maybe they won't hurt us.

8/24/2007 10:03:53 PM

Quote :

"I suppose they could examine the passenger mannifests for all the ferrys"

there is no passenger manifest

8/24/2007 11:02:39 PM

Quote :

"like I said, what method do you propse they use to locate these individuals?"

how about classicLaw Enforcement investigation procedures. You know, standard detective work.

as in, what they get paid to do, and what they should be doing.

NOT posting "Duh, Has anybody seen these fellers" on Teh Intarweb.

by all means, if they need to be investigated, then investigate them, but don't turn it into a citizen's watch patrol.

8/25/2007 12:34:37 AM

^ Hey, schmoe, isn't it about time for you to be catching the ferry? I mean, according to you and your comrades here, public transportation is perfectly safe and any talk of a couple of guys "acting suspiciously" is just right-wing scaremongering, am I right?

Bon voyage, mate! No worries, right?

8/25/2007 1:20:08 AM

i'll probably be on one of the ferries tomorrow

it's not like i wake up every day, turn on the news, and think "Wow, we made it another day without incident on the ferries?"

that said, the bit that I do know about the subject will probably have me packing my .45 and a couple of mags in the trunk from now on when I'm taking the ferry.

8/25/2007 1:23:54 AM

^ Sounds like a plan. But if you were to be fortunate enough to shoot one or both of these individuals during the commission of a serious crime, the liberals in Seattle would likely brand you the Bernie Goetz of the ferry system.

8/25/2007 1:33:44 AM

Quote :

"fortunate enough to shoot one or both of these individuals"

Yes, shooting someone is always cause to celebrate.

8/25/2007 1:56:49 AM

Quote :

"Hey, schmoe, isn't it about time for you to be catching the ferry? I mean, according to you and your comrades here, public transportation is perfectly safe and any talk of a couple of guys "acting suspiciously" is just right-wing scaremongering, am I right? Bon voyage, mate! No worries, right?"

Haha, does your mommy still tuck you in at night too? And your daddy check your closets for the boogey monster?

It seems clear to me that we're not getting the entire story on why the FBI is plastering these guys' pics all over the place... at least I hope is not just because Billy Bob thought they looked sketchy. In any case, it's good to be aptly vigilant.

But, you seem to be promoting a level of fear that's not really warranted, and then making a straw man argument against people who aren't as big of a pussy as you, as wanting to give bad guys a free pass.

Public transportation IS very safe. Terrorism is a consideration. But the proper response isn't to flip out in support of some type of paranoid police state. We have to maintain our objectivity. If these guys aren't terrorists, spending too much time focusing on them will allow the real terrorists to slip by unnoticed.

8/25/2007 3:06:41 AM

Quote :

"how about classicLaw Enforcement investigation procedures. You know, standard detective work. as in, what they get paid to do, and what they should be doing. NOT posting "Duh, Has anybody seen these fellers" on Teh Intarweb. by all means, if they need to be investigated, then investigate them, but don't turn it into a citizen's watch patrol."

What exactly do you think "classicLaw Enforcement investigation procedures" are? You'd rather we waste countless man hours having cops and agents hold photos at ferries across the NW and ask "Duh, Has anybody seen these fellers" instead of using a mass media approach? If you don't know who someone is then the only way you are going to find out is asking the general public and they used the most effective means for that. Given that these individuals were seen multiple times in multiple areas they would have come across a wide range of people, no way to effectively limit who you need to talk to. Even then, why waste weeks trying to track down people in person? If someone is a "person of interest" in a child abduction or kidnapping case we don't make the authorities hand out fliers at Wal-Mart... we flood news networks with photos and video.

8/25/2007 3:24:28 AM