Okay, so most of The Soap Box frequenters hate the kid and want him banned.

But seeing as this IS the soap box, I try to stay on topic, debating and rebuking his arguments.

However I (and a few others) get drowned out by the scores of people who see a thread with his name on it and immediately come in spewing equal hatred, irrational judgment and emotionally motivated personal attacks.

There's no need to ban him, in fact I think salisburyboy is a good addition to the site. His topics are very much worth discussion and understanding of this small sect of radical people.

So please treat his threads with the same rules and regulations as any other: stay on topic, use based arguments and keep the personal attacks out of it. In doing so, you can diffuse his rhetoric and really talk about the deep seeded problems with his theories and references.

8/31/2007 11:50:18 AM

I agree.

I also try to reason with bears.

8/31/2007 11:51:31 AM

ive always wondered if this kid is for real and actually believes half the stuff he posts here. Reminds me of mel gibson's character from Conspiracy Theory

8/31/2007 12:45:07 PM

wrong, he needs to go

NOW

i find the fact that duke hasn't suspended him yet very disconcerting

8/31/2007 12:48:01 PM

Rules for salisburyboy's threads:

Lock all of them. Terminate him. Rejoice.

The man posted a call for us to decapitate Mexicans with hunting knives. The time for understanding and debate has passed, if it ever existed. He has never responded to them before. Really, in the time I've seen him on this site, he has only gotten worse. Tolerating his presence has failed.

Quote :

"emotionally motivated personal attacks."

Heh. My emotional reaction to what he posted yesterday involved some very specific wishes regarding his personal health and continued existence. All things considered I think we're showing a great deal of restraint.

[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 12:51 PM. Reason : ]

8/31/2007 12:50:01 PM

Quote :

"There's no need to ban him, in fact I think salisburyboy is a good addition to the site. His topics are very much worth discussion and understanding of this small sect of radical people."

This line of reasoning is worse than a hooksaw thread.

8/31/2007 1:15:31 PM

nastoute, GrumpyGOP and Boone:

You are three of the people I'm specifically talking about. You aren't following the rules of the forum, and you are only serving to reinforce his belief in his own dogma, belittle the people who are actually capable of changing his positions and making a mockery of the entire process.

All three of you are taking the approach of "he doesn't think like me, get rid of him". I don't think any of us agrees with his positions. But your approach will only sharpen his resolve and provide more fodder for his arguments and others who may be swept into his logic.

If, instead, you stay clear-minded and rational, using logical and well founded responses, you DIFFUSE his arguments. His entire platform is based on getting emotional, unfounded responses from his opposition, because he can instigate and launch from that. He doesn't have any ground to stand on against cold hard facts.

8/31/2007 1:44:00 PM

Normally I'd say to treat him like a small child throwing a temper tantrum, ignore him.

This is the most effective way to deal with over-zealous morons in general. When the find themselves screaming into nothingness they'll eventually quiver and go away. This is my general reaction to hooksaw these days.

That being said . . . his last thread made a very real and very graphic advocation of violence against a specific group of people. It doesn't matter what group he advocated doing violence to, that to me is irrelevant, but that was cause for suspension. Its one thing to make generally asinine statements, advocate resistance to ideas you disagree with, and even call for populist uprising, but advocate violence with fairly specific goals puts TWW itself on precarious ground.

At the very least, that thread needs to be locked and deleted.

8/31/2007 1:55:14 PM

Quote :

"Normally I'd say to treat him like a small child throwing a temper tantrum, ignore him. This is the most effective way to deal with over-zealous morons in general. When the find themselves screaming into nothingness they'll eventually quiver and go away. This is my general reaction to hooksaw these days. That being said . . . his last thread made a very real and very graphic advocation of violence against a specific group of people. It doesn't matter what group he advocated doing violence to, that to me is irrelevant, but that was cause for suspension. Its one thing to make generally asinine statements, advocate resistance to ideas you disagree with, and even call for populist uprising, but advocate violence with fairly specific goals puts TWW itself on precarious ground. At the very least, that thread needs to be locked and deleted."

8/31/2007 2:05:22 PM

Quote :

"All three of you are taking the approach of "he doesn't think like me, get rid of him"."

Hardly.

For most of us the longstanding reason for wanting to see him gone is the style, rather than the content, of his posts. His actual contribution to the forum and the debate is negligible. He rarely, if ever, engages in actual discourse. The ideological content of his threads is secondary in importance to his repetitive, formulaic style and his refusal to participate in anything resembling "debate."

Even hooksaw, redundant buffoon that he is, does far more in the way of actual argument, as well as a wider scope of stupid topics.

Only with this most recent thread has the content come completely to the fore, and even now it's not "He's thinking different from me" so much as it is "He's thinking how to kill me and/or my friends."

Quote :

"the people who are actually capable of changing his positions"

None of you is capable of changing his positions. Not one of you. So go ahead and quit flattering yourself.

Quote :

"If, instead, you stay clear-minded and rational, using logical and well founded responses, you DIFFUSE his arguments."

I disagree, but assuming for the sake of argument that responses to him could diffuse his arguments, I'd say that simple removal is preferable all the way around anyway.

8/31/2007 2:06:23 PM

im gone for a few days and this is what I miss, I love the SB

8/31/2007 2:41:02 PM

Quote :

"If, instead, you stay clear-minded and rational, using logical and well founded responses, you DIFFUSE his arguments. His entire platform is based on getting emotional, unfounded responses from his opposition, because he can instigate and launch from that. He doesn't have any ground to stand on against cold hard facts."

You've clearly not been debating him for very long.

This is not how he works.

8/31/2007 2:46:28 PM

Quote :

"Noen: If, instead, you stay clear-minded and rational, using logical and well founded responses, you DIFFUSE his arguments. His entire platform is based on getting emotional, unfounded responses from his opposition, because he can instigate and launch from that. He doesn't have any ground to stand on against cold hard facts."

Noen, with all respect, you obviously have very little actual experience dealing with Salisburyboy's threads ... and you've only been coming around the Soap Box somewhat recently, am i right?

Look, I've been a consistent defender of salisburyboy's right to post here, in the face of many others who have continually called for his removal -- Until now.

The fact is well known, you just can not debate with him. I learned this a long time ago, and have for the most part stayed clear of his threads. He will not engage in any semblance of reasonable debate. he will ignore all the facts and continue prodding people with outrageous claims, emotional appeals, and semantic games.

None of this is news.

And for the life of me, I cant understand how Mr. Joshua and others continue to try to rationally engage him, because all their valid arguments are ignored by Salisburyboy. Every thread devolved into a ridiculous flamewar with rarely ever anything worthwhile coming out of them.

Still, I didnt think it was reason to ban him, and I instead always blamed people for carrying on with him.

This latest thread however, has crossed the line in a way thats worse than I ever expected

He has posted gruesome (and real) video of neo-nazis executing people in a grisly manner, for the sole reason that they were an ethnic minority.

He has followed it with gleeful praise of the perpetrators and calls that americans should do the same thing to resolve our "immigrant problems"

This is intolerable.

He needs to go.





[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 3:31 PM. Reason : ]

8/31/2007 3:24:39 PM

Quote :

"He rarely, if ever, engages in actual discourse. The ideological content of his threads is secondary in importance to his repetitive, formulaic style and his refusal to participate in anything resembling "debate.""

Quote :

"You've clearly not been debating him for very long. This is not how he works."

I would argue that this happens BECAUSE you guys come in a blanket reject him. If you instead stuck to logic and verifiable evidence, he would have two options: 1, debate the facts or 2, ignore the debate and continue his diatribe.

In the latter case it becomes very clear as a case for suspension/banning. This is a forum for discussing ideas. Currently you guys are as much responsible for the lack of adherence as he is.

Quote :

"Only with this most recent thread has the content come completely to the fore, and even now it's not "He's thinking different from me" so much as it is "He's thinking how to kill me and/or my friends.""

Which is, at it's core, still "he's thinking different from me". It just happens to be a specific subject you become emotionally involved in. This forum is about the expression and discussion of ideas, NOT just the ideas that people find polite or courteous. As long as he is only TALKING about them (which he is), there shouldn't be censorship against the expression.

It's much more productive to categorically rebut his assertions, so that for those who may come after him, or for those on the fence of being brainwashed into such ideologies, there is a basis to bring them back to reality.

Quote :

"I disagree, but assuming for the sake of argument that responses to him could diffuse his arguments, I'd say that simple removal is preferable all the way around anyway."

This does nothing but shovel the dirt under the carpet. If we just remove the content, it doesn't do anything to change the thought. Whether or not we can change HIS outlook, by presenting well founded arguments and investing the time to diffuse the hate propaganda, it CAN help prevent it's spread, and provide people with the real information to rebut such arguments in other arenas.

8/31/2007 3:28:38 PM

Quote :

"nastoute, GrumpyGOP and Boone You are three of the people I'm specifically talking about."

Why the fuck aren't I on this list?

Also

Quote :

"I also try to reason with bears."

8/31/2007 3:29:28 PM

Quote :

"The fact is well known, you just can not debate with him. I learned this a long time ago, and have for the most part stayed clear of his threads. He will not engage in any semblance of reasonable debate. he will ignore all the facts and continue prodding people with outrageous claims, emotional appeals, and semantic games. None of this is new. For the life of me, I cant understand how Mr. Joshua and others continue to try to rationally engage him, because all their valid arguments are ignored by Salisburyboy."

if you have a thread where ONLY rational responses are poised, it forces him into a choice. Break the forum rules (and be banned) or engage within debate.

From what I've seen in EVERY thread he posts, in the soap box or otherwise, this never happens. Because GrumpyGOP and his boys jump in immediately with the polar opposite emotional, baseless, rhetoric screaming at him for his stupidity. Calling someone stupid or evil or terrible only makes them more defensive. SHOWING them their errors, horrors and evils brings the possibility of change.

8/31/2007 3:31:38 PM

hahahaha

Quote :

"if you have a thread where ONLY rational responses are poised, it forces him into a choice."

choices:
A) Ignore responses and repost original material
B) Ignore responses and repost original material


Noen, n00b.

Quote :

"Calling someone stupid or evil or terrible only makes them more defensive. SHOWING them their errors, horrors and evils brings the possibility of change."

now you just sound like a battered girlfriend.... "I know if I can just reach him, he'll change"

[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 3:34 PM. Reason : s]

8/31/2007 3:33:18 PM

You guys don't seem to recognize my point.

Rather than wanting his removal for the content he posts, I'm saying to take the higher ground. Force him to either debate his issues OR hang himself by breaking the forum rules.

But that only works if people dont go internet apeshit in response to him (which is what the majority of you do)

^Exactly. In that case, suspend him. But that HASNT HAPPENED. Instead it goes:

Original post something inflammatory
-response: omg ban him
-response: this is stupid propaganda
-boy: no its not here is more inflammatory garbage
repeat.

Quote :

"now you just sound like a battered girlfriend.... "I know if I can just reach him, he'll change""

Having grown up with an extended family full of bigots and racists, yes people can change. I've witnessed it with my own eyes. It's neither easy or common, but bringing someone rational evidence and calm discourse CAN affect people's opinions. Just because you choose not to accept the burden, doesn't mean it can't be done.

And for me, just bringing one person out of the darkness, or preventing one person from sinking into it, is worth all the time in the world.

[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 3:37 PM. Reason : .]

8/31/2007 3:33:22 PM

Quote :

"And for me, just bringing one person out of the darkness, or preventing one person from sinking into it, is worth all the time in the world."

i thought cheese wasn't allowed in the soapbox





[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 3:40 PM. Reason : s]

8/31/2007 3:39:47 PM

Quote :

"I'm saying to take the higher ground. Force him to either debate his issues OR hang himself by breaking the forum rules."

There isn't a forum rule against him simply "continuing his diatribe," as you put it, and that's what he does. There is not one that explicitly forbids him from abstaining from debate. Especially before the Cheese Restrictions, salisburyboy was notorious for double and triple posting in his own threads.

You aren't giving him a choice between debate or the ban, you're giving him a choice between debate and ceaselessly regurgitation of material. He has consistently picked the latter with no result.

Quote :

"And for me, just bringing one person out of the darkness, or preventing one person from sinking into it, is worth all the time in the world."

Sure, but your time can be used far more efficiently to that end by applying it to someone other than salisburyboy. Some causes are lost. He's one.

Quote :

"Because GrumpyGOP and his boys jump in immediately"

I rarely jump into salisburyboy's threads, and when I do it is quite often with a specific question or argument rather than an emotional knee-jerk reaction. The record will clearly demonstrate as much, and I suggest you consult it before assuming that my behavior in salisburyboy's most recent and exceptional thread is representative of my behavior in the rest.

And when I pose questions or arguments, he either ignores them completely or responds with textbook logical fallacies.

8/31/2007 3:43:35 PM

^Sorry, I wasn't specifically targeting you (intentionally), but referencing the group of users who ignore any real response.

And if we can take the high road, give him the true chance to debate, and he rejects it, ban him. I just want to make sure he has the full chance of that happening (which I've never seen happen).

There may not be a specific rule against it, but it against the spirit of the forum and should be a moderator decision worth making. The "ban him because he spews radical propaganda" however, is not.

8/31/2007 3:47:12 PM

here's the crux of the matter:

you're new to the soapbox and energetic and ready to change the world with thoughtful debates.

we've been here for years and have tried all your wonderful ideas on Salisburyboy and others like him and guess what.... internet forums don't change souls

8/31/2007 3:52:02 PM

^^

are you new?

what the hell do you think's been going on for the past forever?

he's deliberately crossed a line to, I think, see how we and the moderator would react

he needs to get slammed down into terminationville

[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 3:54 PM. Reason : .]

8/31/2007 3:53:34 PM

Quote :

"And if we can take the high road, give him the true chance to debate, and he rejects it, ban him. I just want to make sure he has the full chance of that happening (which I've never seen happen)."

He's been given ample opportunity. There are certainly those who just egg him on, but there are also several who do try debate. Salisburyboy refuses to engage them.

8/31/2007 3:57:08 PM

I wonder if CrazyJ himself hasn't tied the hands of soapbox moderators and told them they're not allowed to suspend Salisburyboy

8/31/2007 4:00:33 PM

Let's go through Noen's posting history, shall we?

The last Salisburyboy thread I see him posting in is this:

http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=491420&page=1#10661527

Quote :

"so much bullshit in this thread i couldnt even get waders high enough to trudge through it all"

Nice contribution to the high road there, chief.

Before that we have some actual effort put into "Time to admit the gun nuts are right," one of salisburyboy's more benign threads, located here:

http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=489769&page=1

The overwhelming majority of his effort, though, is aimed at people other than salisburyboy, and includes such well-reasoned, debate-centric gems as:

Quote :

"Okay you fucking retard."

Actually, looking at it, other than your first post in the thread you ignored salisburyboy entirely, only participating in any discussion during a lull in which he was not present.

---

In short, if the last month is any indicator, you post in the Soap Box infrequently. and and in that timeframe have attempted to engage salisburyboy in debate exactly once. Your posts are hardly paragons of well-reasoned, detached, logical conversation, whether with salisburyboy or more respectable posters.

Your claims to expertise on the matter are growing rather tenuous.

8/31/2007 4:07:44 PM

^Im neither claiming to be perfect or an expert. Just posing a possible resolution.

I was playing major devil's advocate in the gun rights thread, mainly to see if some other people could answer some nagging ideological issues I've had for a long time about it. They did, I felt the thread was a pretty good success, with or without saliburyboy. Though, without him, the thread wouldnt have been created and the discussion wouldnt have happened.

I've been a lurker in the Soap Box since it's creation. I've posted off and on here in spurts over the years (which would be apparent if post logs werent cleared every 6 months or so it seems now). I understand your position, and I don't doubt you are right in it

8/31/2007 4:12:22 PM

Internet...serious business!!!!!!

8/31/2007 5:30:19 PM

a bunch of you seem to be really big pussies on here if you can't deal with one SB. If you don't have enough intelligence to argue his points or to not read them at all then you are just weak minded and are no better then he is. In fact you fuel his fire by trying to silence him.

Get over yourselves and get the fuck off your high horse.


(not you Noen...just the whiny people in your thread.)

^^^i lurk a lot in the soap box but I've learned to keep the posting in here to a minimum since the common practice is to silence, personally attack and suspend anyone that doesn't have the same views as the majority.

It should really be called the Sheep Box

[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 5:46 PM. Reason : fda]

8/31/2007 5:44:37 PM

i'm sorry

i don't believe that users should advocate the sawing off the heads of foreigners on this website

that's just me

terminate salisburyboy

...

and the whole we're "whiny" bit

fuck you

some of us understand that there are lines that can be crossed

and a lot of us believe he did just that

I'VE NEVER called for salisburyboy's suspension before

hell, I made a joke thread calling for him to be a mod once

that jerkoff has got to go

[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 5:57 PM. Reason : .]

8/31/2007 5:53:38 PM

Quote :

"and the whole we're "whiny" bit fuck you some of us understand that there are lines that can be crossed"

whine whine whine some more why don't you.


but its ok to post Saddams hanging and celebrate that

[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 6:00 PM. Reason : fda]

8/31/2007 5:59:44 PM

It's the fucking wolf web. There aren't any lines to be crossed. This isn't real.

8/31/2007 6:05:52 PM

Quote :

"but its ok to post Saddams hanging and celebrate that"

Posting the video was a bit sick, I'll grant. But there is a world of difference between killing and/or celebrating the death of a war criminal and doing the same for a random wetback.

8/31/2007 6:16:35 PM

^no there aren't. Killing is killing. In your eyes he's a war criminal. In someone elses eyes Bush is a war criminal. All you are saying is as long as the person dying deserved it, then its ok.

So...how do you know the person in those videos didn't deserve it? Maybe they chose them because they did something horrible?

8/31/2007 7:33:03 PM

Quote :

"I wonder if CrazyJ himself hasn't tied the hands of soapbox moderators and told them they're not allowed to suspend Salisburyboy"

ive wondered teh same thing

8/31/2007 7:53:07 PM

Quote :

"^no there aren't. Killing is killing. In your eyes he's a war criminal. In someone elses eyes Bush is a war criminal. All you are saying is as long as the person dying deserved it, then its ok. "

I completely agree.

8/31/2007 8:13:18 PM

Beslan Massacre

8/31/2007 8:23:11 PM

Quote :

"i lurk a lot in the soap box but I've learned to keep the posting in here to a minimum since the common practice is to silence, personally attack and suspend anyone that doesn't have the same views as the majority. "

I totally agree. But I can say this, the Duke does a good job moderating, in comparison to other sections on this site.

But on the contrary, I would definitely not want to see this place turn into some sort of arena recruiting ground for aryan, black, muslim etc militia.

Im all about keeping the peace.

[Edited on August 31, 2007 at 8:27 PM. Reason : /]

8/31/2007 8:26:06 PM

He's been posting the same tripe shit for years, why do you think it would suddenly have an impact on recruiting anyone?

8/31/2007 9:20:05 PM

I never said suddenly. But it appears that his common tactics are failing him. In return he's become more graphic and stern (his last thread).

8/31/2007 9:24:27 PM

from mod forum:

Quote :

"yeah, internet problems last couple of days, or i would've dealt with it sooner. i've never liked the guy, but have kept him around mostly due to my own laissez-faire ideologies and how much the people who constantly campaign for his suspension piss me off. also, he entertains me occassionally in the same way that a bad car crash causes rubbernecking. but that was beyond what i will tolerate."

...and just like that, he was gone.

8/31/2007 9:30:50 PM

lol

I knew he'd finally go there. He couldn't stand it.

And it was a bloodless cheeseless revolution.

8/31/2007 9:33:17 PM

so what in the end made you suspend him Duke...was it that killing immigrants is good thread or did the vast jewish conspiracy get to you?

8/31/2007 10:02:18 PM

revenge of the maximus

8/31/2007 10:28:41 PM

Quote :

"Even hooksaw, redundant buffoon that he is, does far more in the way of actual argument, as well as a wider scope of stupid topics."

GrumpyGOP

Um. . .since that was a compliment--sort of--I'm going to invite you to kiss only half of my ass, Grumpy.

To all who read this: After what has been going on in TSB as of late, do NOT compare me to salisburyboy ever again. If you do, you're a fucking piece of self-loathing shit.

9/1/2007 2:02:46 AM

^ Very salisburyboy-esque thing to say...

9/1/2007 2:23:46 AM

^ Okay, please tell me that was a joke, right?

9/1/2007 2:26:53 AM

That was a joke.

But, if something looks like a duck...

9/1/2007 2:28:27 AM

haha Grumpy hurt hookgeezer's feelings

9/1/2007 11:12:10 AM

huzzah!

9/1/2007 3:34:58 PM