Quote :

"A Pentagon group has encouraged some U.S. military snipers in Iraq to target suspected insurgents by scattering pieces of "bait," such as detonation cords, plastic explosives and ammunition, and then killing Iraqis who pick up the items, according to military court documents. The classified program was described in investigative documents related to recently filed murder charges against three snipers who are accused of planting evidence on Iraqis they killed. Comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site. Additionally, entries that are unsigned or contain "signatures" by someone other than the actual author will be removed. Finally, we will take steps to block users who violate any of our posting standards, terms of use or privacy policies or any other policies governing this site. Please review the full rules governing commentaries and discussions. You are fully responsible for the content that you post. "Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of an elite sniper scout platoon attached to the 1st Battalion of the 501st Infantry Regiment, said in a sworn statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. Forces.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/23/AR2007092301431.html?hpid=topnews

Good lord. Is this all it takes now? Picking some shit up off the ground? God help us.

9/24/2007 11:52:45 AM

sounds pretty shady. I wonder if there is anything else to the story, ie...other criteria or behavior that they look for before firing.

9/24/2007 12:00:49 PM

Iraq is a complete military, diplomatic, and economic failure

9/24/2007 12:04:18 PM

how many of you mother fuckers are administration officials?

None of you?

Ok then, you don't know the half of it, you don't know the larger strategy, you don't know any of this shit nor of the profiles of the persons they're targeting.


In this case, I think the best thing for you to do is STFU.

9/24/2007 12:13:25 PM

lol


calm down.

9/24/2007 12:19:53 PM

^^ I will keep that in mind the next time you have anything to say, positive or negative, about anything on the planet that does not directly involve you.

9/24/2007 12:24:05 PM

You're speaking for an institution that you cannot speak for. If you were talking about your breakfast this morning, I would take your word for it.


You cannot deduce policy out of a two paragraph "news" feed. And if you attempt to, you're a dumbass.

9/24/2007 12:28:36 PM

what part of "for the people" am i misunderstanding?

9/24/2007 12:29:42 PM

Quote :

"War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength."

9/24/2007 12:30:08 PM

what part of "you can't possibly know what the DOD/CIA/FBI knows and to make assumptions that you do is retarded" do you not understand?

9/24/2007 12:35:57 PM

Quote :

"You cannot deduce policy out of a two paragraph "news" feed. And if you attempt to, you're a dumbass."

What? Where is the "two paragraph 'news' feed" I'm getting this from. I posted a four paragraph excerpt from a three page Washington Post article that explains the policy, how they got access to the classified military documents describing it, and a court case involving soldiers involved with the program who have been charged with, among other things, murdering a man who was cutting the grass and then planting a spool of wire in his pocket to justify the killing.

9/24/2007 12:36:21 PM

Quote :

"Ok then, you don't know the half of it, you don't know the larger strategy, you don't know any of this shit nor of the profiles of the persons they're targeting. In this case, I think the best thing for you to do is STFU."

Oh, I see. You believe in blind trust in the federal government.

I wonder what happens to your philosophy when dealing with a policy or effort coming from Democrats.

9/24/2007 12:37:20 PM

yeah, i think i've just lost all respect i had for Ouevre.

it's too bad, because i was beginning to appreciate what seemed to be some rational and well-reasoned observations from him lately.

9/24/2007 12:49:03 PM

^ I live and die by your respect, really.


What I am most claiming is that, by your not knowing the policies of the administration, how can you be sure that this WAS in fact, a policy of the administration?

Could this be a rogue group of military personnel, and concocted by low level officers? Or was this the Bush handing down the mandate.

I realize you quoted "A pentagon group has encouraged..." and in all honesty, i didn't read the 3 pages, but I think the obscurity here is with the phrasing.

9/24/2007 12:58:36 PM

Quote :

"What I am most claiming is that, by your not knowing the policies of the administration, how can you be sure that this WAS in fact, a policy of the administration? Could this be a rogue group of military personnel, and concocted by low level officers? Or was this the Bush handing down the mandate."

I never said, nor did I even insinuate, that this is a policy created by the White House itself.

9/24/2007 1:00:27 PM

^ Fair enough, but how come every damn thread in TSB is in some way pointing out the deficiency of the military? How come you've never posted a thread of the troops building a school/hospital/playing soccer with neighborhood kids.


It's because Abu Ghraib is too sexy for you people. You have to have the "American failure" define your position.

[Edited on September 24, 2007 at 1:03 PM. Reason : .]

9/24/2007 1:02:56 PM

LOL...i'm sure there is a massive FWD: FWD: FWD: FWD: email going around to all the insurgent and iraqi families lol

^i've supported the soldiers 110%...I've even read a lot of their books based on their tours of Iraq/Gitmo etc. A soldier is meant to only follow orders. If the orders are shitty then its the fault of the superiors NOT the poor guy executing them.

[Edited on September 24, 2007 at 1:07 PM. Reason : fda]

9/24/2007 1:04:39 PM

Quote :

"Fair enough, but how come every damn thread in TSB is in some way pointing out the deficiency of the military? How come you've never posted a thread of the troops building a school/hospital/playing soccer with neighborhood kids."

Because that's what they're supposed to do. I didn't realize I was obligated to make a thread every time somebody does their job.

THIS JUST IN: FARMERS FARMED. PREACHERS PREACHED. TEACHERS TAUGHT.

Surely all these things are worthy of praise. Why don't you make a thread every time these things happen?

9/24/2007 1:11:07 PM

^except Farmers sell their lands for development, Preachers have had sex with altar boys, and teachers have failed at teaching.

9/24/2007 1:12:55 PM

In times of war, this is a perfectly logical method. I don't blame them for doing something like this. I did it once, but I didn't snipe the guy. Just called the police on him. Read my thread in the garage

/message_topic.aspx?topic=413313

9/24/2007 1:17:16 PM

Oeuvre

9/24/2007 1:21:37 PM

Quote :

"How come you've never posted a thread of the troops building a school/hospital/playing soccer with neighborhood kids."

Quote :

"Because that's what they're supposed to do."

no its not.

9/24/2007 1:25:02 PM

^if you invaded another country and you are supposed to be the defender of 'all good in this world' then yes, it is part of your job. fix what you break.

9/24/2007 1:26:33 PM

Quote :

"How come you've never posted a thread of the troops building a school/hospital/playing soccer with neighborhood kids."

We're not Iraqi teachers/doctors/athletes. WE DON'T KNOW THE HALF OF IT. STFU.

9/24/2007 1:32:10 PM

there are PLENTY of troops that routinely go above and beyond the call of duty, and to accuse otherwise is ridiculous.

What I'm saying is that this is another "one bad apple" scenario. It's ashame that the vast majority of the armed forces are honorable people doing an honorable job but this is the shit that you people harp on.

9/24/2007 1:35:47 PM

Quote :

"what part of "you can't possibly know what the DOD/CIA/FBI knows and to make assumptions that you do is retarded" do you not understand?"

I am sure the average German trusted the Fuhrer at the start of WW2. They did not know what the SS, Gestapo, and military knew. Therefore they were being responsible little germans and doing their part for the war. I mean their had to have been a good reason for invading Poland and the rest of Europe.

Back to topic though I really wonder how much truth there is to this. I am sure in the heat of combat in with as much stress at the troops have to deal with mistakes do happen and innocent lives lost. I have a hard time though believing that actual operations are set up just to snipe an unsuspecting Iraqi that notices something laying on the ground and picks it up.

[Edited on September 24, 2007 at 1:38 PM. Reason : l]

9/24/2007 1:36:31 PM

^^^^ Last time I checked "defender of all good in this world" isn't part of the mission statement of any branch of the United States Armed forces.

Dunno about GI Joe though . . .

[Edited on September 24, 2007 at 1:43 PM. Reason : ^ Godwins Law!]

9/24/2007 1:38:41 PM

^^ Hitler comparison number 1.


Keep on, you're making yourself irrelevant.

[Edited on September 24, 2007 at 1:44 PM. Reason : .]

9/24/2007 1:39:00 PM

Says the guy who just claimed any critique of government policy is misinformed.

9/24/2007 1:45:02 PM

I didn't say that at all. I did say that the left in this board routinely use mistakes by low level infantry as an excuse to indict anything related to Bush.

9/24/2007 1:46:55 PM

Quote :

"^^^^ Last time I checked "defender of all good in this world" isn't part of the mission statement of any branch of the United States Armed forces."

You're right...its just another form of tyranny

9/24/2007 1:49:20 PM

If we're that tyrannical, why would you want to live in the US?


Oh yeah, because we give you more freedom and economic opportunity than anywhere else.

9/24/2007 1:57:13 PM

Quote :

"the left in this board routinely use mistakes by low level infantry as an excuse to indict anything related to Bush."

Did you even read?

A) It's not a mistake of low-level infantry. Read the article FFS.

B) Guess who the first person was to mention Bush in this thread? You.

9/24/2007 1:57:39 PM

^^ arguable.

don't misinterpret. I love living in the country and would not want to move. I just disagree with the gov't and the current administration on a lot of issues. Optimistically though as a society we should be able to change these problems if we truly are free.

As far as social issues although we are not oppressed; you would be incorrect by saying we are the "most free" place in the world.



[Edited on September 24, 2007 at 2:01 PM. Reason : l]

9/24/2007 1:57:57 PM

with the extent of freedom we have, it becomes an argument of semantics when you say "most free."

9/24/2007 2:10:41 PM

Quote :

"If we're that tyrannical, why would you want to live in the US? Oh yeah, because we give you more freedom and economic opportunity than anywhere else. "

Again, WAY over your head. I said that the United States is supposed to be the defender of all things good in this world. It was a compliment on what this country is supposed to and used to stand for. But then someone else responded with

Quote :

"^^^^ Last time I checked "defender of all good in this world" isn't part of the mission statement of any branch of the United States Armed forces.""

so sounds to me like I am hugely mistaken and the days of fighting for freedom are all but gone.

Quote :

"we give you more freedom"

You haven't given me anything, your grandfather and great grandfathers have. People like you, however, will be the ones who take all that away.

[Edited on September 24, 2007 at 2:12 PM. Reason : we]

9/24/2007 2:10:46 PM

Something tells me Oeuvre enjoys listening to country music

9/24/2007 2:13:53 PM

So Oeuvre... did you want to rebut my response?

Quote :

"Did you even read? A) It's not a mistake of low-level infantry. Read the article FFS. B) Guess who the first person was to mention Bush in this thread? You."

so you don't have to scroll up.

9/24/2007 2:16:20 PM

^ I'm running 640x480 resolution... i have to scroll up.

9/24/2007 2:18:19 PM

I would have picked up ammunition, wires, det cord, and explosives if I saw them laying around, but not for the purpose of blowing anyone up.

I would like to believe that this was just rogue infantry people trying to take matters in to their own hands, but it seems it involved at least some level of planning by commanders, which is very disturbing. I don't see how doing something that has such a high likelihood of killing innocent Iraqis is suppose to help us in any way. It incites the insurgency, and makes regular Iraqis hate us.

9/24/2007 2:25:38 PM

Now you have to scroll in two dimensions.

9/24/2007 2:28:11 PM

My initial assumption is that there is probably more to the process than just blasting anybody who picks up the stuff. If that's the case, then I'm probably OK with it. If it's not, then I'm definitely not. I have to hold out until I hear more.

9/24/2007 2:37:05 PM

^^

when my son gets to high school, i'm going to suggest this title for his term paper:

Early 21st Century History: The Exponential Decay of GWB's Credibility.

9/24/2007 3:24:22 PM

^ I would suggest this title: The Definition of Exponential and How My Dad Does Not Know It

9/24/2007 3:28:13 PM

^ Haha, pwnt.

^^^^ I would like to see what that looks like for presidents in general, especially two term ones. I'm not trying to defend Pres. Bush, I'm just curious in general...

9/24/2007 3:40:28 PM

Yeah, but The Linear Decay of GWB's Credibility as it Asymptoticly Approaches the Limit of 30% just doesn't have quite the same ring to it.

9/24/2007 3:47:04 PM

Quote :

"In times of war, this is a perfectly logical method. I don't blame them for doing something like this. I did it once, but I didn't snipe the guy. Just called the police on him. Read my thread in the garage"

You put out a car and waited for a crime to happen. This is more comparable to putting out a knife and charging the person who picks it up with slashing tires.

I'm pretty sure if police did something similar to this in America it would be entrapment. For example, the cops can't lay some weed on the street and then arrest the first person to pick it up. For all they know the person might want to toss it in the trash or take it to the police. They could be trying to keep it out of the hands of a criminal or keep it away from the children. They might not even know what it is other than to say that it is litter.

I wouldn't be too keen on someone laying out plastic explosives or ammunition on the street where my neighbor's kids could pick it up. The Iraqi who picks it up might have the best intentions or the worst intentions, but a sniper pops him in the head so I guess we'll never find out.

This is terrible.

[Edited on September 24, 2007 at 4:10 PM. Reason : l]

9/24/2007 4:04:03 PM

^ Yes, I know that it's not quite the same as video taping someone slashing your tires.

I'm not saying what they are doing is right, but I'm just trying to understand their logic behind it. Maybe their logic is, a higher percentage of 'insurgents' will pick up explosive related items. Kill 4 insurgents, 1 good samaritan, and a young boy?

It doesn't make sense just to shoot anyone who picks it up. Not much of this war makes sense anyways.

9/24/2007 4:54:22 PM

Quote :

"Ouevre: The Definition of Exponential and How My Dad Does Not Know It"

hey, thats pretty funny.

unfortunately, the closest model for a line describing that trend is most definitely an exponential decay.

im sorry that you're too stupid to realize it. i take it you didn't major in any math- or science-related discipline.

9/24/2007 5:25:12 PM

Quote :

"so sounds to me like I am hugely mistaken and the days of fighting for freedom are all but gone."

No, the mission of the armed forces of the United States is to execute the orders of the Commander in Chief to the fullest of their ability in a precise and violent manner. It is not in the best interest of the nation to allow the armed forces the discretion to decide what legal orders they want to follow and what legal orders they want to disobey. Nation-building and peace-keeping are ancillary operations, not the primary mission. Period.

Quote :

"I said that the United States is supposed to be the defender of all things good in this world."

Says who? Isn't that the kind of neo-conservative thinking that got us into Iraq in the first place? I'm not saying that the United States shouldn't set a good example, but whether or not Uncle Sam needs to come swinging in with a cowboy hat and an American flag cape is certainly a debatable issue.

Quote :

"I don't see how doing something that has such a high likelihood of killing innocent Iraqis is suppose to help us in any way."

I'm not defending this without knowing all the facts, but anyone who has been to Iraq knows that most Iraqis don't pick a damn thing up off the road unless they're going to use it. One of the biggest issue Soldier's encounter with IEDs is distinguishing them from the other assorted crap that lines most urban Iraqi roads.

[Edited on September 24, 2007 at 5:30 PM. Reason : .]

9/24/2007 5:27:42 PM