http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2005/04/12/VI2005041201139.html live link

so far the hearing has exposed such huge thing as:

blackwater is allowed to fire and fine folks that break the rules they operate under (international and national laws, treaties and regulations) and that's it

blackwater has a perfect record of protection.

blackwater has been involved in <200 weapon firings (they fired) out of 16,000 missions

private contractors have historically, and always usually served as civilian protection (government employees etc) not the military

private contractors get paid more than their US government/military equivalents

[Edited on October 2, 2007 at 12:15 PM. Reason : s]

10/2/2007 12:03:04 PM

Quote :

"blackwater is allowed to fire and fine folks that break the rules they operate under (international and national laws, treaties and regulations) and that's it"

Have they gone over the part where they can kill people indiscriminately and not be charged with murder or war crimes?

10/2/2007 12:33:03 PM

The way hearings usually go:

1.) The company tells a bunch of lies.

2.) Then the truth comes out.

10/2/2007 12:41:26 PM

^

10/2/2007 12:45:21 PM

I'm sure Blackwater has not gotten away with any more than the local police have.

That said, under what circumstances might a group of bodyguards end up killing people indiscriminately? When the shit goes down their charge gets thrown into a car and they speed off. It's not good for the bottom line for them to stand and fight.

10/2/2007 1:27:32 PM

Quote :

"Have they gone over the part where they can kill people indiscriminately and not be charged with murder or war crimes?"

you expect a company to press charges that the US government should?

10/2/2007 1:30:32 PM

so far only a few actual points.... or real questions, the rest has been political soapboxing....

typical

on the other point of the guys that might have been involved in law breaking in iraq, i do agree they should be investigated by the government, and if found guilty, punished accordingly....

i suppose they could be extradited but the US doesn't do that much

[Edited on October 2, 2007 at 1:57 PM. Reason : s]

10/2/2007 1:41:26 PM

Vietnam was soldiers did not shoot any civilians or torch innocent people's property just for the hell of it

10/2/2007 2:05:37 PM

ok... and? you have a point there somewhere?

look i don't care what happens to the guy's that did shit like that, honestly i hope they were prosecuted and punished accordingly. anyone involved in directly ordering them to do that should have also been punished.

in case you hadn't noticed, it seems very unlikely that any of these guys where told to do these things they are being accused of. if they did them, then punish them. simple.

10/2/2007 2:11:34 PM

They do pay quite a bit more...I was offered well into six figures (tax free) when I was leaving the military thanks to my extensive anti-terrorism/force protection work...but even that wasn't worth spending a year in Iraq

10/2/2007 3:21:38 PM

Quote :

"blackwater has been involved in reported <200 weapon firings "

There, fixed it for you.

10/2/2007 4:40:33 PM

thx, i was going back and forth between watching it with some co-workers (slow day) and tww

[Edited on October 2, 2007 at 10:06 PM. Reason : ]

10/2/2007 10:01:30 PM

Looks like game over for Blackwater is around the corner...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/04/AR2007100402654.html

Quote :

"U.S. military reports from the scene of the Sept. 16 shooting incident involving the security firm Blackwater USA indicate that its guards opened fire without provocation and used excessive force against Iraqi civilians, according to a senior U.S. military official... The U.S. military reports appear to corroborate the Iraqi government's contention that Blackwater was at fault in the shooting incident in Nisoor Square, in which hospital records say at least 14 people were killed and 18 were wounded... State Department spokesman Sean McCormack hinted Thursday that Blackwater guards could face legal proceedings. Announcing a decision to have FBI agents lead a State Department inquiry into the shootings, he said it was "a hedge against the possibility that an investigation leads to the point where there may need to be a referral" to U.S. prosecutors. "

Still, there are a few things to consider...

Quote :

"McCormack, the State Department spokesman, did not say under which U.S. laws Blackwater employees could face prosecution. Contractors are immune from Iraqi law under an order issued by the U.S. occupation government in 2004. Although Defense Department contractors are liable under U.S. military codes, the extent to which those working for State are within the jurisdiction of U.S. civilian courts remains "murky," the head of the department's diplomatic security operations said in congressional testimony Tuesday. "

10/5/2007 12:20:49 AM

all these civilian deaths and suddenly a few spark an investigation into blackwater? i don't buy it. they are doing the job they are asked to do, i doubt they are doing anything that any of us wouldn't do for survival given the situation so back off of their backs

10/6/2007 2:00:22 AM

if Blackwater goes down they'll just be replaced by 3D Global Solutions or someone else

what really scares me is Extraordinary Rendition

10/8/2007 11:17:09 AM

i wonder how many more civilians would've been killed by insurgents, etc if NOT for blackwater

10/8/2007 11:22:46 AM

well civilians getting killed by their own people Insurgents is an Iraqi problem that they must deal with. 5 innocent Iraqi's killed by a foreign force is going to get a lot more heat then 50 killed by internal strife.

Getting involved in a countriy's civil war is always messy.

10/8/2007 11:44:39 AM

keep on rolling

10/8/2007 12:21:38 PM

Quote :

"Richmond, Va.: Realistically, if you were an ordinary solider (officers and NCOs alike) wouldn't you be resentful at how much a Blackwater employee is paid (about $1,200 a day) doing what you could do? Have you heard how these troops feel about Blackwater, differences in pay notwithstanding? Get along, stay out of each other's way, etc.? P.W. Singer: I think so. No one has done a formal study on it, but anecdotally, it seems to be there. I do many meetings and talks with US military audiences, and the anger seem sto have gotten worse each year. It is not just the issue of better pay, but that the soldier is 1) facing the same risks, but 2) held to a standards and clear system of accountability and 3) there is also a brewing sense that the soldiers efforts to win hearts and minds are being harmed rather than helped by contractor action. Our study found this to be the case on 8 different parameters, extending form the tactical to the strategic level. Retired Army officer and NY Post columnist Ralph Peters is perhaps the most blunt on this point. "Armed contractors DO harm COIN [Counterinsurgency] efforts. Just ask the troops in Iraq." "

I find it interesting our country may revert to feudalism, an old idea where there was a central king that was dependent on the lords and dukes and barons for their troops. In our case, we're starting on the road toward our king (President) being dependent on the lords and dukes and barons of today (corporations, private contractors, etc.).

10/8/2007 12:30:41 PM

except the "lords" in your analogy here don't hold any fiefdom

all of the funding comes from the peasants
the soldiers are peasants too

so basically these corporations and contractors do a lot of nothing and get paid for it

10/8/2007 1:14:20 PM

we fund the gov't through income taxes. Our lords just keep us happy by giving us just enough disposable income to buy cool lil gadgets and get our 2 weeks paid vacation each year.

10/8/2007 1:39:38 PM

Breaking news:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/16/iraq.blackwater/index.html

Quote :

"Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki asked the U.S. State Department to "pull Blackwater out of Iraq," after an Iraqi probe concluded that the private contractors committed unprovoked and random killings in a September 16 shooting, an adviser to al-Maliki told CNN. A man bicycles past a car on September 20 that was damaged during the September 16 Blackwater shootings. Adviser Sami al-Askari told CNN the Iraqis have completed their investigation into the shooting at Nusoor Square in Baghdad. Al-Askari said the United States is still waiting for the findings of the American investigation, but al-Maliki and most Iraqi officials are "completely satisfied" with the findings of their probe and are "insisting" that Blackwater leave the country. U.S. Embassy spokeswoman Mirembe Natango told CNN by telephone that the Iraqi-U.S. joint commission met and is proceeding with its work on the matter. "We need to let the joint commission do its work," she said, adding that once the joint commission has finished, it will make policy recommendations. Blackwater CEO and founder Erik Prince has said the team was attacked and was defending itself at an intersection not far from the heavily guarded Green Zone on September 16. Seventeen Iraqis were killed, including women and children, and 27 were wounded, according to Iraqi officials. Prince told CNN Sunday that the guards did not commit "deliberate violence." "There was definitely incoming small arms fire from insurgents" he said on CNN's Wolf Blitzer on "Late Edition." The U.S. State Department and the FBI are investigating the incident. Survivors told harrowing stories of being shot at by the guards despite presenting no threat. The FBI has been in the process of speaking to the survivors. The first U.S. soldiers to arrive on the scene after the incident told military investigators they found no evidence contractors were fired upon, a source familiar with a preliminary U.S. military report told CNN. The soldiers found evidence suggesting the guards fired on cars attempting to leave and found weapon casings on the scene matching only those used by U.S. military and contractors, the military source said. But Prince on Sunday told CNN, "In the incident reports I've seen, at least three of our armored vehicles were hit by small arms fire, incoming, and one of them damaged, which actually delayed their departure from the traffic circle while they tried to rig a tow." A Philadelphia law firm has filed suit in federal court against Blackwater on behalf of the families of three Iraqis killed and one wounded in the in the incident, which occurred in and around Baghdad's Nusoor Square. The suit claims Blackwater "created and fostered a culture of lawlessness amongst its employees, encouraging them to act in the company's financial interests at the expense of innocent human life."

10/16/2007 4:23:26 PM

^ hey bro i hate to break the news but we are USA we know what is right for Iraq. Fuck the Iraqi leaders we will keep the blackwater freedom fighters there to aid in the battle for freedom and democracy for as long as we feel

[/sarcasm]

Quote :

"CEO and founder Erik Prince has said the team was attacked and was defending itself at an intersection not far from the heavily guarded Green Zone on September 16."

of course Prince will defend the credibility and reputation of his company by claiming they were fired on first. What do we expect??? For prince to publicly announce that his group of bandits unjustifiably murdered a bunch of Iraqi civilians.

Quote :

"But Prince on Sunday told CNN, "In the incident reports I've seen, at least three of our armored vehicles were hit by small arms fire, incoming, and one of them damaged, which actually delayed their departure from the traffic circle while they tried to rig a tow.""

hell if these assholes were blowing away everyone around me; i would probably get out my 9mm and attempt to defend myself. maybe when they see my firing back i will distract them long enough for a mother and her children to run off before being slaughtered by a hellfire of bullets. I think each blackwater mercenary involved in the incident should be handed over to Iraqi authorities and forced to spend the rest of their lives getting pounded in the but by abduela and sabeeb

[Edited on October 16, 2007 at 6:01 PM. Reason : d]

10/16/2007 5:54:48 PM

Quote :

"The way hearings usually go: 1.) The company tells a bunch of lies and wins. 30 year gap 2.) Then the truth comes out but nobody gives a shit by then."

Actually, hasn't it been far more than 30 years since the JFK killing? Maybe I should change the above to 40-50 years (or never).

10/16/2007 8:30:32 PM

Blackwater is there to do what there doing.

Has anyone in this thread ever been put in a true fight or flight situation?

10/18/2007 2:45:46 PM

The democratically elected government of Iraq wants Blackwater out. What is so hard to understand. We went in there supposedly to put in a more stable democratically minded government. Now that they are starting to run shit they should have a say on who gets to hang out and drive around with a 50 mm gun mounted.

Quote :

"Has anyone in this thread ever been put in a true fight or flight situation?"

Blackwater is hired guns. Kinda like the mafia but legal.

[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 2:58 PM. Reason : s]

10/18/2007 2:57:58 PM

Quote :

"50 mm gun"

10/18/2007 3:01:07 PM

^^ I didn't know Blackwater was using anti-tank weapons. I guess the insurgents finally got around to mechanized warfare.

Seriously though. I agree that we should respect the Iraqi Government's will on this one. Sure, Blackwater may have a 100% effectiveness rate in protecting their clients, but that doesn't justify their extreme tactics.

[Edited on October 18, 2007 at 3:58 PM. Reason : .]

10/18/2007 3:57:09 PM

sorry i mean .50 caliber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_caliber_machine_gun

10/18/2007 4:02:03 PM

Quote :

"Others — especially Blackwater — "roll heavy" in large convoys of big, armored SUVs, driving aggressively to keep a 100-ft. (about 30 m) bubble of space around the client at all times, intended to ward off suicide car bombers. To maintain that bubble, convoy drivers bump other cars off the road, and gunners fire shots into radiators. Iraqi drivers have learned from painful experience to stay well clear of convoys,"

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1672792-2,00.html

interesting read......

10/23/2007 3:53:58 PM

^ That is standard procedure for most military convoys:

Quote :

"Has anyone in this thread ever been put in a true fight or flight situation?"

There are more than a few people on TWW who have been deployed.

10/23/2007 3:58:09 PM

He's right, it's standard operating procedure. I was deployed in the Fallujah area as an MP, machine gunner. 100 meters is the limit when it comes to approaching traffic. But the rule gets bent when you are in the city or when you come towards iraqi civilian traffic. You still have to use common sense when it comes to escalation of force.

10/25/2007 12:36:24 PM

Quote :

"Sure, Blackwater may have a 100% effectiveness rate in protecting their clients, but that doesn't justify their extreme tactics. "

not to defend many of their illegal and so far unpunishable tactics, but im sure the people that they protect sleep better knowing that they currently have a 100% effective rate. and its those people that push the hardest and pull the strings to keep blackwater protecting them

10/25/2007 2:41:12 PM

All of you are still missing the fact of the matter that BW is a medium between the people they hire and the State Department. Each person on this program has to be approved by the State Department, then goes to training which is dictated and observed by the DoS. Then when they deploy they are under exclusive operational command and control of the Diplomatic Security Service.

They are paid by BW, but everything they do in country is under the authority and direction of DoS.

The big conspiracy ends with the State Department, not a company.

10/25/2007 7:28:11 PM

Quote :

"Others — especially Blackwater — "roll heavy" in large convoys of big, armored SUVs, driving aggressively to keep a 100-ft. (about 30 m) bubble of space around the client at all times, intended to ward off suicide car bombers. To maintain that bubble, convoy drivers bump other cars off the road, and gunners fire shots into radiators. Iraqi drivers have learned from painful experience to stay well clear of convoys,"

this wouldn't happen if the freakin' locals turned in these bastards.... same thing with gangbangers in durham... no reason to 'protect' those fucks b/c your the same race

10/26/2007 12:00:07 PM

In defense of Blackwater and the modern day 'merc'

Quote :

"The mere mention of private military companies is enough to panic the OH MY G-D squad of American society and leaves them loudly shrieking fascism and totalitarianism, murder and thuggery."

Quote :

"So far this year Blackwater has guarded 1,873 convoys, out of which there were 56 shootings, or less than 3% of all assignments. Last year, the company had 6,254 missions and 38 incidents. Since the beginning of the Iraq war 27 Blackwater contractors have been killed while guarding U.S. officials and no U.S. diplomat had lost their life on missions protected by Blackwater [emphasis added]. Overall, some 428 security contractors have been killed in Iraq and an unknown number wounded. There are no definitive public figures for the amount of missions that have been completed by armed private contractors in Iraq or how many shooting 'incidents' they may have been engaged in. The usual suspects have smeared such companies as whores of war, fascists, SA, Freikorps, soldiers of fortune, and even as some sort of Praetorian Guard. And while such grasping analogies are fun for the attention grabbers, partisan hacks, professional pundits, and uninformed rabble rousers they are poor historical comparisons at best. Hysteria and histrionics attracts attention to your cause and makes great headlines but in the real world they make a poor contribution to the debate on public policy."

Quote :

"It seems to me that the latest media frenzy about private military companies and Blackwater in particular, is just another attempt to politically damage President Bush and to undermine the overall mission in Iraq. The sudden 'outrage' now being expressed on Capitol Hill and in the press about Blackwater, and private security contractors in general, seems to be little more than the latest manufactured outrage of the week. (Remember the 'outrage' over Haliburton?) If the critics of the current administration and the guardians of perpetual outrage would show this much anger and outrage at the enemy the U.S. would be a lot closer to winning the Iraq war and the larger War on Terror. The pacifists and appeasers on the Left have decided that they cannot win by attacking the military and smearing General Petraus so now they have moved on to attacking the underpinning organizations that are supporting the mission in the field. They have suffered severe blowback in the past for questioning and attacking the troops and for threatening to pull the financial rug out from under them. The 'modern day merc' is a relatively unknown and mysterious entity that makes a far easier target than the uniformed military and it does not have the reflexive patriotic defenders that the military enjoys."

Quote :

"'There is simply no way at all that the State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security could ever have enough full-time personnel to staff the security function in Iraq. There is no alternative except through contracts.' — current U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Ryan Crocker"

Quote :

"The private security contractors in Iraq are almost entirely ex-military and most are from elite fighting units. They are familiar and comfortable working with the military establishment and have been trained by the very governments they are working for. The modern day 'merc' is not the bloodthirsty soldier of fortune slaughtering, raping and pillaging across the landscape in the service of a warlord as many of the loudest voices of criticism would seem to have you believe. In stark contrast, the average armed contractor is highly trained, highly motivated and willing to risk life and limb in an often very dangerous environment. They have been accused of being gung ho, cocky, swashbuckling and foul-mouthed on occasion but I wouldn't expect any less from such types in a volatile war zone facing off against the most ruthless of enemies. Though mistakes and poor decisions have undoubtedly been made, private security contractors have not been shown to have participated in a greater amount of questionable 'incidents' than the regular U.S. military or its allies in the country."

Quote :

"If the Blackwater types are becoming the American equivalent of the French Foreign Legion fighting 'unpopular wars' for national interest, then they have my blessing. The wars that the U.S. will be fighting around the globe need to be fought utilizing special forces, overwhelming air power, proxy armies, native militias, warlords, tribal clans, good intelligence, massive power, and, if need be, private U.S. and allied 'armies' of ex-military types willing to risk it all for a good paycheck. I support doing what it takes to avoid bogging the military down as we have succeeded in doing in Iraq, reducing U.S. military casualties, and ensuring victory against Islamofascists and the enemies of Western Civilization throughout the world."

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/huntwork/071006

A damned cogent piece.

10/27/2007 7:22:37 AM

Quote :

" WASHINGTON - The State Department promised Blackwater USA bodyguards immunity from prosecution in its investigation of last month's deadly shooting of 17 Iraqi civilians, The Associated Press has learned. The immunity deal has delayed a criminal inquiry into the Sept. 16 killings and could undermine any effort to prosecute security contractors for their role in the incident that has infuriated the Iraqi government. "Once you give immunity, you can't take it away," said a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation. State Department officials declined to confirm or deny that immunity had been granted. One official — who refused to be quoted by name_ said: "If, in fact, such a decision was made, it was done without any input or authorization from any senior State Department official in Washington." Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd and FBI spokesman Rich Kolko declined comment. FBI agents were returning to Washington late Monday from Baghdad, where they have been trying to collect evidence in the Sept. 16 embassy convoy shooting without using statements from Blackwater employees who were given immunity. Three senior law enforcement officials said all the Blackwater bodyguards involved — both in the vehicle convoy and in at least two helicopters above — were given the legal protection as investigators from the Bureau of Diplomatic Security sought to find out what happened. The bureau is an arm of the State Department. The law enforcement and State Department officials agreed to speak only if they could remain anonymous because of the sensitivity of the inquiry into the incident. The investigative misstep comes in the wake of already-strained relations between the United States and Iraq, which is demanding the right to launch its own prosecution of the Blackwater bodyguards. Blackwater spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell declined comment about the U.S. investigation. Based in Moyock, N.C., Blackwater USA is the largest private security firm protecting U.S. diplomats in Iraq. The company has said its Sept. 16 convoy was under attack before it opened fire in west Baghdad's Nisoor Square, killing 17 Iraqis. A follow-up investigation by the Iraqi government, however, concluded that Blackwater's men were unprovoked. No witnesses have been found to contradict that finding. An initial incident report by U.S. Central Command, which oversees military operations in Iraq, also indicated "no enemy activity involved" in the Sept. 16 incident. The report says Blackwater guards were traveling against the flow of traffic through a traffic circle when they "engaged five civilian vehicles with small arms fire" at a distance of 50 meters. The FBI took over the case early this month, officials said, after prosecutors in the Justice Department's criminal division realized it could not bring charges against Blackwater guards based on their statements to the Diplomatic Security investigators. Officials said the Blackwater bodyguards spoke only after receiving so-called "Garrity" protections, requiring that their statements only be used internally — and not for criminal prosecutions. At that point, the Justice Department shifted the investigation to prosecutors in its national security division, sealing the guards' statements and attempting to build a case based on other evidence from a crime scene that was then already two weeks old. The FBI has re-interviewed some of the Blackwater employees, and one official said Monday that at least several of them have refused to answer questions, citing their constitutional right to avoid self-incrimination. Any statements that the guards give to the FBI could be used to bring criminal charges. A second official, however, said that not all the guards have cited their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination — leaving open the possibility for future charges. The official declined to elaborate. Prosecutors will have to prove that any evidence they use in bringing charges against Blackwater employees was uncovered without using the guards' statements to State Department investigators. They "have to show we got the information independently," one official said. Garrity protections generally are given to police or other public law enforcement officers, and were extended to the Blackwater guards because they were working on behalf of the U.S. government, one official said. Experts said it's rare for them to be given to all or even most witnesses — particularly before a suspect is identified. "You have to be careful," said Michael Horowitz, a former federal prosecutor in Manhattan and senior Justice Department official. "You have to understand early on who your serious subjects are in the investigation, and avoid giving these people the protections." It's not clear why the Diplomatic Security investigators agreed to give immunity to the bodyguards, or who authorized doing so. Bureau of Diplomatic Security chief Richard Griffin last week announced his resignation, effective Thursday. Senior State Department officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, have said his departure was directly related to his oversight of Blackwater contractors. Tyrrell, the Blackwater spokeswoman, said the company was alerted Oct. 2 that FBI would be taking over the investigation from the State Department. She declined further comment. On Oct. 3, State Department Sean McCormack said the FBI had been called in to assist Diplomatic Security investigators. A day later, he said the FBI had taken over the probe. "We, internally and in talking with the FBI, had been thinking about the idea of the FBI leading the investigation for a number of different reasons," McCormack told reporters during an Oct. 4 briefing. Last week, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice ordered a series of measures to boost government oversight of the private guards who protect American diplomats in Iraq. They include increased monitoring and explicit rules on when and how they can use deadly force. Blackwater's contract with the State Department expires in May and there are questions whether it will remain as the primary contractor for diplomatic bodyguards. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has said his Cabinet is drafting legislation that would force the State Department to replace Blackwater with another security company. Congress also is expected to investigate the shootings, but a House watchdog committee said it has so far held off, based on a Justice Department request that lawmakers wait until the FBI concludes its inquiry. ___ Associated Press writers Matthew Lee and Lolita C. Baldor contributed to this story."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071029/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/blackwater_prosecutions;_ylt=Any.9RWFPosL3cLI232zfLADW7oF

11/1/2007 4:22:31 PM

Report: FBI finds 14 Blackwater killings unjustified

Quote :

"A Blackwater Worldwide spokeswoman says the company supports "stringent accountability" for any wrongdoing in the wake of a New York Times report that federal investors have found that the shooting deaths of at least 14 Iraqi civilians by Blackwater guards in Baghdad in nearly two months ago violated rules of deadly force. No evidence supports assertions by Blackwater employees that they were fired upon by Iraqi civilians, but the FBI has concluded that three of the deaths may have been justified under rules that allow lethal force in response to an imminent threat, the paper reported. State Department officials have said it has offered limited immunity to private security contractors involved in shootings in Iraq. They disagreed with law enforcement officials that such actions could jeopardize prosecutions in the September incident. Rep. David E. Price, D-North Carolina has sponsored legislation to apply U.S. criminal law to contractors serving overseas and called for the Justice Department to hold someone accountable for the shootings. "We've always supported any productive moves toward accountability, including Congressman Price's bill," said Tyrrell, the Blackwater spokeswoman."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/14/iraq.blackwater.ap/index.html

Quote :

"If the Blackwater types are becoming the American equivalent of the French Foreign Legion fighting 'unpopular wars' for national interest, then they have my blessing. "

Is he essentially arguing that the President should execute wars regardless of the will of the people? That seems pretty fucking un-American to me. Not all necessary wars are popular and not all popular wars are necessary, but arguing that the President should have a ready reserve of private mercinaries at his desposal, outside of the control of congress is pretty disturbing to me.

[Edited on November 14, 2007 at 11:10 AM. Reason : .]

11/14/2007 11:05:05 AM

Quote :

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The State Department's inspector-general announced Wednesday he would recuse himself from decisions involving security contractor Blackwater, after admitting his brother serves as an adviser to the company."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/14/blackwater.state/index.html

11/14/2007 6:23:17 PM

^^ Then be disturbed.

Quote :

"'There is simply no way at all that the State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security could ever have enough full-time personnel to staff the security function in Iraq. There is no alternative except through contracts.' — current U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Ryan Crocker."

11/15/2007 12:03:13 AM

Quote :

"" WASHINGTON - The State Department promised Blackwater USA bodyguards immunity from prosecution in its investigation of last month's deadly shooting of 17 Iraqi civilians, The Associated Press has learned."

And if 17 US civilians were shot dead in some foreign country... what would the US do? Violently arrest all men above 17 yo in the city and lock them up in Cuba for 6 years without a trial.

This is the beginning of the end of the US. Such hypocrisy is downright sickening and blood curdling. Everybody involved in this has signed his/her ticket to hell at the end of his/her life.

11/15/2007 7:43:28 AM

there are a lot of people in this thread talking out their ass.

11/15/2007 7:59:04 AM

Quote :

"There is simply no way at all that the State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security could ever have enough full-time personnel to staff the security function in Iraq. There is no alternative except through contracts.' — current U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Ryan Crocker."

I'm not opposed to the use of private security firms as, well, security. But I didn't like the authors implication that, "If the Blackwater types are becoming the American equivalent of the French Foreign Legion fighting 'unpopular wars' for national interest, then they have my blessing."

Furthermore, these men need to be held accountable for gross abuses of power. I'm not passing judgment on this specific case since I don't know the details, nor do I expect zero collateral damage, and I'm very aware of the Iraqi penchant for exaggeration, but they don't get a pass simply because they've been effective.

11/15/2007 8:37:10 AM

^

Quote :

"The private security contractors in Iraq are almost entirely ex-military and most are from elite fighting units. They are familiar and comfortable working with the military establishment and have been trained by the very governments they are working for. The modern day 'merc' is not the bloodthirsty soldier of fortune slaughtering, raping and pillaging across the landscape in the service of a warlord as many of the loudest voices of criticism would seem to have you believe. In stark contrast, the average armed contractor is highly trained, highly motivated and willing to risk life and limb in an often very dangerous environment. They have been accused of being gung ho, cocky, swashbuckling and foul-mouthed on occasion but I wouldn't expect any less from such types in a volatile war zone facing off against the most ruthless of enemies. Though mistakes and poor decisions have undoubtedly been made, private security contractors have not been shown to have participated in a greater amount of questionable 'incidents' than the regular U.S. military or its allies in the country."

11/16/2007 1:15:18 AM

Congratulations, you can re-post what you already submitted while contributing absolutely nothing more to the argument. I read that. I still disagree.

Quote :

"are comfortable working with the military establishment"

No, no they are not. I've had people get their covoys run off the road by contractors. They are not known for working well with the military.

Quote :

"the average armed contractor is highly trained, highly motivated and willing to risk life and limb in an often very dangerous environment. They have been accused of being gung ho, cocky, swashbuckling and foul-mouthed on occasion but I wouldn't expect any less from such types in a volatile war zone facing off against the most ruthless of enemies."

Almost to a man they are hyper type-A adrenaline junkies who value money over service in the military. Again, I have no problem with these men existing but a) they do not operate outside of the law, b) I don't want them being a private army under the control of the president.

[Edited on November 16, 2007 at 6:27 AM. Reason : .]

11/16/2007 6:00:48 AM

bump

1/1/2010 11:13:10 AM

apparently the courts didn't get the witch hunt memo.

at least we have some semblance of checks and balances remaining in this country.... for now.

1/1/2010 12:07:16 PM

1/1/2010 12:18:24 PM

Judge Drops Charges From Blackwater Deaths in Iraq
December 31, 2009

Quote :

"WASHINGTON — In a significant blow to the Justice Department, a federal judge on Thursday threw out the indictment of five former Blackwater security guards over a shooting in Baghdad in 2007 that left 17 Iraqis dead and about 20 wounded."

Quote :

"But in a 90-page opinion, Judge Ricardo M. Urbina of Federal District Court in Washington wrote that the government's mishandling of the case 'requires dismissal of the indictment against all the defendants.' In a 'reckless violation of the defendants' constitutional rights,' the judge wrote, investigators, prosecutors and government witnesses had inappropriately relied on statements that the guards had been compelled to make in debriefings by the State Department shortly after the shootings. The State Department had hired the guards to protect its officials."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/us/01blackwater.html

I have three on this one:

1. Hurray!

2. I wonder how many grand statements about the "rule of law" we'll see here now?

3. And this doesn't bode well for trials of those who have been "compelled" to make statements, does it? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? KSM trial?

1/1/2010 12:19:40 PM

Quote :

" The Blackwater guards said they believed they had come under small-arms fire from insurgents. But investigators concluded that the guards had indiscriminately fired on unarmed civilians in an unprovoked and unjustified assault. … On Thursday, Judge Ricardo M. Urbina threw out manslaughter and weapons charges against five Blackwater guards because he said prosecutors had violated the men’s rights by building the case based on sworn statements that had been given by the guards under the promise of immunity. Prosecutors have not said whether they will appeal the decision. … [Odierno] added: “I worry about it because clearly there were innocent people killed during this attack. And that’s concerning everyone that innocent people were killed. And so it’s heart-wrenching when these people are killed.”"

- http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/02/us/02blackwater.html

The way the article has it phrased, it’s not the immunity itself that prevented prosecution, which is strange to me, but IANAL.

It’s sad that anyone would gloat though that people got off with indiscriminately and without provocation, murdering innocent people. It’s not hard to see how extremist in other countries can become terrorists, when i see people with that same mentality over here.

1/1/2010 1:05:47 PM