http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7249034.stm



Lots of Albanians running around nyc waving flags.

2/17/2008 2:41:22 PM

2 misspellings on the title
[old] topic

/fail

2/17/2008 2:42:43 PM

yes, the misspelling and typo make this non-threadworthy. please post older topic if this is [old].

2/17/2008 2:47:42 PM

well... I am going to Belgrade at the beginning of March

this could be uncomfortable

anybody know much about the climate there?
should I say I'm from New Zealand?

2/17/2008 5:23:08 PM

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSL1712604720080217?feedType=RSS&feedName=politicsNews

2/17/2008 5:45:03 PM

^^Serbs are extremely nice people. there is no need to worry about being an American.

Also, fuck Albanians and the terrorist UCK.

2/17/2008 7:57:50 PM

^Yeah they are so friendly that no one wants to be in the same country with them.

2/18/2008 12:48:02 AM

It's called Greater Albania. I suggest you look into it numb nuts.

2/18/2008 12:58:18 AM

I like how Serbia doesn't really like to dwell on the massacres committed in kosovo.

2/18/2008 1:02:26 AM

why dwell on the massacres committed in Kosovo when the massacres committed by the UCK are completely swept under the rug and KFOR stands around and doesn't prevent them.

And a majority of these so-called massacres on Kosovars were staged by the UCK.

2/18/2008 1:05:29 AM

Dude I don't even feel like arguing with your now-mastered salisburyboy style of debate.

Not remotely.

2/18/2008 1:13:54 AM

Yes, I'm just like salisburyboy. Why don't you look into the Racak "Massacre"

Why don't we focus on the Nis Express Massacre?

Oh that's right. We've already determined who the bad guys are.

The happenings in Kosovo are just another example of the United States lcaiming to be an inpartial arbitrator, but in reality we aren't.

2/18/2008 1:22:53 AM

Where is Marshal Tito when you NEED him!

Quote :

"Serbs are extremely nice people"

Quote :

"fuck Albanians"

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 1:38 AM. Reason : it shows.]

2/18/2008 1:31:42 AM

in the he's been dead for 28 years. If he were to show up, we'd have to worry about zombie armies.

2/18/2008 1:37:58 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suva_Reka_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C4%8Dak_incident

Yes, please do actually read that incident, especially the references to that massacre committed at the hands of Serbian and Yugoslav security forces and was noted as one of the charges against Slobodan Miloševic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podujevo_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Krusha_e_Madhe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izbica_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gornje_Obrinje_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuska_massacre

And of course, we could go into other Serbian Massacres:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

Quote :

" The Srebrenica massacre is the largest mass murder in Europe since World War II.[7] In the unanimous ruling "Prosecutor v. Krstic", the Appeals Chamber of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), located in The Hague, ruled that the Srebrenica massacre was genocide,[8] the Presiding Judge Theodor Meron stating: By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims [Bosniaks], the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the forty thousand Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity. "

Can't fathom why an different ethnic group wouldn't want to be in the same country as these kats.

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 1:41 AM. Reason : >.<]

2/18/2008 1:39:58 AM

Once again, you act like the Serbs are the only bad guys in the entire situation. They aren't.

Likewise, Racak was exaggerated by the UCK. The majority of bodies found there were more than likely brought into the area after the fact. It has been acknowledged by the Germans and the EU.

And I assume Orahovac, Prizen, Pec, Odzak, Bosanski Brod, Slavonski Brod, Orasje, Krajina, Knin, Lapushnik, Vukovar, Gospic, and the horrific crimes committed against Serbs during WWII by the Croatians never happened?

^and I can't figure out why Kurds and Armenians would still live in Turkey

I also suggest you read the UN reports on Yugoslavia before you come in here spouting off he NATO, EU, US party-line on a matter you obviously know very little about

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 2:15 AM. Reason : .]

2/18/2008 1:47:28 AM

I know Tito is dead; but the Balkans have been a serious pain in the ass for the rest of Europe and the only thing capable of stopping these people from slitting each others throats on a regular basis was a dictator (and a pretty damn good one at that).

Quote :

"If there ever is another war in Europe, it will come out of some damned silly thing in the Balkans. - Otto Von Bismarck 1898"

No side is all good or bad, but good fences make for good neighbors.

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 1:58 AM. Reason : ]

2/18/2008 1:57:33 AM

^Nice job in misquoting Robert Frost.

Quote :

"I know Tito is dead; but the Balkans have been a serious pain in the ass for the rest of Europe and the only thing capable of stopping these people from slitting each others throats on a regular basis was a dictator (and a pretty damn good one at that)."

The Balkan crisis of the 1990s was exacerbated by the involvement of NATO, and the United States rushing to judgment and rushing to pick sides.

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 2:17 AM. Reason : .]

2/18/2008 2:09:41 AM

Yeah, I'd like nothing better than to be on this guy's side...

Quote :

"NATO and the United States rushing to judgment and rushing to pick sides."

your kidding, I believe they waited 3 years to join the fight

Americans are invariably late to whatever war is going on.

2/18/2008 2:26:29 AM

It was a conflict we should never have involved ourselves in.

Also, you shouldn't forget that it was Stjepan Mesic (current president of Croatia) who ordered the JNA forces into Croatia to prevent it from seceding. No one is arguing milosevic wasn't an evil man. It is necessary that we see all sides of the story before we quickly deem one side innocent and the other guilty. In the Yugoslav war and the war in Kosovo all sides were guilty. It's just that we completely ignore the atrocities committed against the Serbs.

We have US officials on record stating to the effect that only serbs commit war crimes.

2/18/2008 2:47:12 AM

After a while of studying, I figured out all the Balkan conflicts. It's actually surprisingly simple.

Basically ever group in the region feels that it has the right to rule every piece of territory that their people has ever historically ruled. There. That's it. I've just explained the whole thing to you.

The church-burning Kosovars are bastards. The god damned Ustashe-butthole-licking Croats are bastards. The ethnic-cleansing Serbs are bastards. The Bosnians are a mix of these bastards. There, I've explained that to you, too.

---

That being said, however,

The Serbians carried out more atrocities and had more force with which to do so. I'd rather have a burned Orthodox Church -- this coming from and Orthodox Christian -- than a couple of burned Muslims.

Our intervention should have come earlier and more forcefully, sure. I can agree with that. But at the time we finally grew the balls to intervene, we needed to come down on the Serbs.

---

If I could ever propose a foreign policy position that would stick, it would be this:

Any genocide, anywhere in the world, met with overwhelming, firepower-superior, deadly force. I suspect it will prove amazing how fast any ethnic warlord will crumble in the face of a few shock-and-awe events.

And, for the record, the answer is "yes," if the question is, "are you willing to nuke the bastards?"

2/18/2008 4:41:39 AM

Quote :

" And, for the record, the answer is "yes," if the question is, "are you willing to nuke the bastards?""

I knew you still had a little bit of irrational republican left in you.

2/18/2008 6:54:06 AM

whats irrational about unleashing holy earthly hell upon evil folks?

2/18/2008 7:28:26 AM

Quote :

"this coming from and Orthodox Christian "

You're quite rare here.

I'm a regionalist on principle. So in that respect good for Kosovo.

On the other hand, if I were a run-of-the-mill Serb, I'd be quite pissed off if a bunch of foreigners took my land away from me.

I also wonder if the Europeans are able to realize this can of worms they just opened. They might try and sweep this point under the rug by pointing to atrocities, but that is going to get ignored by minority groups. If the Kosovars are able to declare independence from Serbia, what's stopping the Flemings from declaring independence from Belgium, or the Scots from the UK, or the Catalans from Spain, etc. Eastern Europe is even in worse shape. Because of this, the following EU members will not recognize Kosovo.

Spain - due to Catalans and Basques
Cyprus - due to Northern Cyprus issue
Romania - due to Hungarians - Székely Land.
Slovakia - due to Hungarians.
Greece - they have their own problems with the minorities (In 1994, the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights issued a report extremely critical of the Greek states treatment of minorities), but most likely they want to avoid another war close to their border.

Although we can add one more country to the following list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrecognized_countries

Abkhazia (1992) - not recognized by anyone, part of Georgia
Nagorno-Karabakh (1991) - not recognized by anyone, part of Azerbaijan
Somaliland (1991) - not recognized by anyone, part of Somalia
South Ossetia (1991) - not recognized by anyone, part of Georgia
Transnistria (1990) - not recognized by anyone, part of Moldova

Republic of China, i.e. Taiwan (1949) - recognized by 23 countries as "the China"
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, i.e. Western Sahara (1976) - recognized by 45 countries and the African Union
Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (1983) - recognized only by Turkey

Cyprus (1974) - recognized by everyone except Turkey
Israel (1948) - not recognized by 34 countries and Western Sahara
Palestine (1988) - recognized by 108 countries
North Korea and South Korea (1948) - each do not recognize the other
People's Republic of China (1949) - not recognized by Taiwan; China will not accept recognition from the 23 countries that recognize Taiwan

2/18/2008 8:58:14 AM

Quote :

"whats irrational about unleashing holy earthly hell upon evil folks?"

If the 'evil folks' were the only ones hurt by a nuclear blast then I would see no problem with it other than the environmental fallout that could spread and hurt those around it.


Then again, we know it's likely that more innocent people would be killed by a nuclear bomb than 'evil folk.'

Also, don't forget we have non-nuclear weapons that yield roughly the same size explosions minus the radioactivity.



My problem isn't with killing 'evil folk' but with killing more innocent folk than the 'evil folk' have killed in the process.

2/18/2008 9:01:19 AM

Quote :

"Once again, you act like the Serbs are the only bad guys in the entire situation. They aren't. "

If we go into a historical shitty people contest with fleshed out cause-and-effect I'm pretty sure I can show Serbian's as being very far along on the "could have done without" list.

Quote :

" Likewise, Racak was exaggerated by the UCK. The majority of bodies found there were more than likely brought into the area after the fact. It has been acknowledged by the Germans and the EU. "

Sources.

Quote :

" And I assume Orahovac, Prizen, Pec, Odzak, Bosanski Brod, Slavonski Brod, Orasje, Krajina, Knin, Lapushnik, Vukovar, Gospic, and the horrific crimes committed against Serbs during WWII by the Croatians never happened? "

Not related to the conversation. Just trying to cover for your lack of content here.

Quote :

" ^and I can't figure out why Kurds and Armenians would still live in Turkey "

Not related to the conversation. Just trying to cover for your lack of content here.

Quote :

" I also suggest you read the UN reports on Yugoslavia before you come in here spouting off he NATO, EU, US party-line on a matter you obviously know very little about "

Yes, you've clearly proven me wrong with your overwhelming mountain of evidence.

2/18/2008 10:05:55 AM

Quote :

"whats irrational about unleashing holy earthly hell upon evil folks?"

How do you know who's evil? How do you atomize the supposedly evil folks without also affecting other humans? Who appointed you to play God on Earth?

2/18/2008 11:29:49 AM

Quote :

"The Serbians carried out more atrocities and had more force with which to do so. I'd rather have a burned Orthodox Church -- this coming from and Orthodox Christian -- than a couple of burned Muslims."

It wasn't just churches being burned. There was the whole sale slaughter of school children, nuns, priests, the elderly.

Quote :

"If we go into a historical shitty people contest with fleshed out cause-and-effect I'm pretty sure I can show Serbian's as being very far along on the "could have done without" list. "

Just more of the mis-information going on. Why not include Croatians and Bosniacs on this list? They committed just as many atrocities.

Quote :

"Not related to the conversation. Just trying to cover for your lack of content here."

It is completely germane to the argument. You are willing to assault the entire population of Serbs in this world, but refuse to indict the actions of the Croatians and Bosniacs who were just as guilty. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the fact that Serbs were massacred?

Quote :

"Yes, you've clearly proven me wrong with your overwhelming mountain of evidence. "

We are back to your age old game. Make completely unsubstantiated statements in order to be coy and completely ignore everything brought up to the contrary.

Here is what we know.

1) Serbs, Bosniacs, Albanians, and Croats were deeply involved in blood letting and ethnic cleansing.
2) The only instances of ethnic cleansing that got any play in the media and western governments were committed by the Serbs
3) Of all the guilty players in the Yugoslav Wars, only Serbia was to suffer sanctions
4) Franjo Tubjman, leader of Croatia, ordered the slaughter and strafing of Serbian civilians. Only avoided an indictment for war crimes because of his death.
5) Milosevic was a thug and murderer
6) Operation Storm, which was lauded by President Clinton and Sec. State Albright, as hastening the end of the Yugoslav Wars, has resulted in numerous war crime indictments and convictions of Croatian officers. Clinton and Albright refuse to acknowledge this fact

2/18/2008 12:05:55 PM

^ look, we all know that all sides committed crimes, that happens in EVERY war, whats of note is who started it (Serbs) and who has the worst talley (Serbs).


Its the old never-ending game of one-upping, X kills a whole bunch of people Y, a group of Y gets really fucking pissed and kills a few of people X, X retaliates with an even bigger massacre of Y etc etc.... same thing applies to Isreal-Palestine, and the various Iraqi sects.


Its pretty clear to me these people are better off with fences and borders surrounding them, they clearly cannot control themselves on their own, and considering how many Europeans, Russians, and Americans have died as a result of the Balkan's temper tantrums (WWI, and subsequently WWII), you wonder why these countries have a keen interest in what goes on there.

2/18/2008 12:19:39 PM

Good lord. Who sartered it? The war was started by a Croat when he had the JNA invade Croatia to prevent the secession there.

Likewise, the initial genocide and ethnic cleansing was started by the HVO in Bosnia against Bosnian Serbs and Bosniacs.

futhermore, the worst tally in the game of genocide and ethnic cleansing is against the Croats for the forcible removal and murder of Serbs in Krajina

2/18/2008 12:57:21 PM

nutsmackr I am amazed at your knowledge of the area. It is really nice to see an American that is well informed.

So far, everything you said was right on the dot.

I was born and raised in the area (serb born in croatia) and have really nothing much to add, as you have pretty much covered everything.

I doubt anyone here knows about "Oluja" and forceful removal of serbs from krajina. I have two dead uncles that were killed by Croats during that offensive. People in this country know nothing about that conflict, aside whats served to them on daily news.

SandSanta, aren't you from Turkey? What a surprising response...maybe you need a lesson what turks did in balkans for some 500 years? The only reason why muslims in bosnia exist today is because they converted to islam under ottoman empire. It was always funny to us Serbs, see a muslim in bosnia with muslim first name (hasan, mustafa, envir...etc) followed by -ic ending in the last name. If I were you, I would be quiet in this topic. Really a good thing I didn't know your stance on this issue when I met you, as I would love to tell you few things in person.


...For the record...the word Kosovars does not exist. You are either ethnic Albanian or ethnic Serbian.

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 6:52 PM. Reason : f]

2/18/2008 6:34:19 PM

Ah yes, now I understand, apparently because we are American we cannot possibly understand other regions of the world... you sound just like the Hugo Chavez defenders "youve been suckered by the American media/govt/Bush /Clinton etc etc... have you every considered the Serbian/Albananian/Croatian/etc medias might have some bias on their own?

Of course we aren't going to know about *every* slaughter in the former Yugoslavia/Balkans, they start killing each other at the drop of the hat so often there are too many.

The balkans are almost like Iraq today it seems, all the ethnic/religious groups were kept peaceful by a reasonably repressive dictator (Saddam/Tito), now that they are dead, all those groups have decided to revive ye ol 'we are of different race/religion/ethnicity so we should kill each other over it' wars.

2/18/2008 10:48:41 PM

Quote :

"Ah yes, now I understand, apparently because we are American we cannot possibly understand other regions of the world.."

Wtf? Where did I say that? You can definitely understand, but you have to look for information outside of fox, cnn, wikipedia, etc. Independent articles and especially NPR are all excellent choices for information.

Having lived through the conflict and seeing simultaneously serbian, croatian and bosnian media I will be the first one to tell you that every one of them lied. All sides consistently downplayed number of their respective army casualty and exaggerated the area of taken territory. I mean lied blatantly! Now this, already twisted view gets even more distorted by the time it reaches euro/western media. It is truly impossible to figure it out unless you present there.

For this reason I feel that whatever I know about Iraq conflict is completely distorted, even though I read foreign news about it, as well as US news. nutsmackr's view is extremely informed for a foreigner, thats all I said.

2/18/2008 11:13:18 PM

Part of the problem in Kosovo is not religion, but shear presence of Albanians. Back in 1950's ratio of Serbs to Albanians used to be 60/40 Serbian majority. Within 50 years it shifted to 90/10 Albanian majority. Serbs have 2 kids on average, Albanians 7 or more. Over time with majority ruling they demanded more rights and more control, even though as long as I can remember they had their own media, including TV programs and newspapers. They were never denied any rights.
Along the way they illegally built houses without any licenses from the local towns housing huge numbers of immigrants. Illegal immigration was rampant and huge influx of Albanians from neighboring Albania, looking for better life caused immense shift in demographics.

Serbian population grew at much slower pace than Albanians. Over time Albanians felt that land is theirs since they are a majority. Growing into huge separatist movement that funded itself from drug trafficking and foreign funds from wealthy albanians in US and western Europe. Albanian mafia is major drug trafficker of asian heroin from asia to western europe. When you get a chance check out the number of wanted albanians on interpol website. It is by far higher than any other european nation.


Same thing will be happening in US within 50 years, especially in southern Texas and California. Serbs dealt with separatism the only way they could. For 20 years we dealt with it peacefully, until it became unbearable. Do you think US will do anything differently? I guarantee they will employ military force if it comes to that. Any nation was, is and will be responding the same way. Serbia was no different in 1999 response. Yeah, we killed 10,000 people Albanians. Not everything was ethical, (which war is?), but situation had to be dealt with in order to keep the borders intact. Nobody ever mentions in the news serbs being killed by albanians ON A DAILY BASIS in Kosovo following the NATO bombing. UN forces are powerless or neutral to the point of being apathetic.
US not involved anymore means that conflict must be over. How convenient Same thing will happen in Iraq. Once US is out you will hear about Iraq only intermittently.

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 11:43 PM. Reason : .]

2/18/2008 11:41:11 PM

As its own independent country, Kosovo has no sustainable economy. It will; because of the neutered KFOR, become nothing more than another nacro-state with strong ties to militant islam. Right now, Kosovo is functioning as the European gate way for car smuggling, arms smuggling, human trafficking, and narcotics trafficking. The UN and NATO will be powerless to stop this and Kosovo will do absolutely nothing to stop it. This is the equivalent to giving a bank robber the combination to the lock. Farc rebels will have nothing on Kosovo when it comes to crimes and drugs.

Not only that, but it will cause increased tensions in Macedonia, who already had to fight the UCK, thanks to NATO. Will cause separatists feelings in the Republika Srpska to be even further inflamed. This is a massive failure on the part of US Foreign Policy.

2/19/2008 12:25:25 AM

I'm not as informed on Kosovo as I would like to be, but I hope having their independence they can move forward away from civil wars with Serbia.

Its Europe and every nation state has engaged in mass civil wars in their history, what do you expect in a religious diverse continent?

I am hoping for the best, because its all we can do now. In relation to the Balkans, the Middle East, Pakistan, and Tibet (yes thats a large grouping), all we can do is hope and pray that people can move along and somehow learn to coexist. Because we (Americans) will have little if any say at all anymore.

Kudos for hopefully good independence.

2/19/2008 12:41:04 AM

Quote :

"Also, don't forget we have non-nuclear weapons that yield roughly the same size explosions minus the radioactivity. "

HAHA

[NO]

not even close.

2/19/2008 12:46:31 AM

Quote :

"As its own independent country, Kosovo has no sustainable economy"

Exactly, but there is a catch. Serbia is actually in a big limbo because it provides all energy needs for kosovo as we speak. On one hand by cutting off all energy to kosovo, Serbia is saying that it has given up on its own territory, and if it continues to provide energy (and other needs) it is essentially giving albanians nice free ride and obviously making life miserable for remaining 5% or so of remaining Serbs.

You hit a nail on the head though, this is guaranteed to spill over to Macedonia (it already did back in '99/'00) as there is already a super strong separatist movement. It would make a nice chunk of territory for big Albania.

2/19/2008 1:19:18 AM

this sounds like a good thing...sounds like it will lead to more terrorism in places like russia(i hope)

2/19/2008 1:28:37 AM

Quote :

"I knew you still had a little bit of irrational republican left in you."

:shrug: After an appropriate display of conventional force (hopefully before), the mere knowledge that we are willing to stop at nothing will put the brakes on a lot of these things.

95% of the value in having such devastating firepower is in the psychological effect of the threat of its use. I frequently wonder if we haven't squandered much of that. I think that the tactical nuclear obliteration of a predominantly military target, under the right circumstances, would ultimately save far more lives than it would cost. It's really hard for a country without retaliatory capability to ignore that kind of show of force.

Quote :

"You're quite rare here."

There's a few million of us running around. Though, I'm a convert, which makes me rarer still.

Quote :

"There was the whole sale slaughter of school children, nuns, priests, the elderly. "

Yes, yes, I know. Let me cut to the chase: how should we have intervened? Who should we have bombed? Or should we not have bombed anybody, and just let the whole bloody mess keep playing itself out in full, without restraint?

I'd rather intervene unfairly and stop a few slaughters than stay out and prevent none whatsoever.

Quote :

"Why not include Croatians and Bosniacs on this list? They committed just as many atrocities."

I'll have to sit out on this point of discussion, as my opinion of Croatian nationalists is so slanted as to prevent me giving a fair judgment on matters. Of course, the same could be said for all Hiterlite collaborators.

Quote :

"Good lord. Who sartered it? The war was started by a Croat when he had the JNA invade Croatia to prevent the secession there. "

Ha! Herein lies my problem. You can't reasonably peg the start of this particular ethnic war on anybody. For as long as they've been able to tell any difference between one another they've been at their bloody work. All the originators of the conflict are dead, most of them from countries that no longer exist.

Quote :

"I doubt anyone here knows about "Oluja" and forceful removal of serbs from krajina. I have two dead uncles that were killed by Croats during that offensive. People in this country know nothing about that conflict, aside whats served to them on daily news."

I am at least peripherally familiar with the incident.

That said, this discussion is about handling Kosovo. No Croats, no Catholics. Tubjman wasn't in charge of the Albanians.

Quote :

"SandSanta, aren't you from Turkey? What a surprising response...maybe you need a lesson what turks did in balkans for some 500 years?"

This is unreasonable. The Ottoman Empire has not existed for nearly a century. The Turkish population, disregarding for the moment its other crimes, was at least partially responsible for the disassembly of that state.

Trying to boil down the issue to the involvement of "Turks" is exactly the sort of ethnic characterization that has left everyone in the Balkans killing each other for the past who-knows-how-long.

Quote :

"They were never denied any rights."

Either side gladly denied the other rights every time it had the chance. Now, admittedly, I was born in America and have never visited the former Yugoslavia. I base this on the account of my Serbian nationalist, Bosnian Serb friend of many years. His recollection of Serbian government policies over minority areas is not so cheerful, and he got mad at me when I made jokes about how big a dick Milosevic was.

Cue the, "Oh, well, your friend said something! Anecdotal evidence! Rawr rawr rawr!" Look, it's the best I can do as somebody who was denied the no doubt august privilege of being raised in the most war-torn place in Europe.

Quote :

"Same thing will be happening in US within 50 years, especially in southern Texas and California. Serbs dealt with separatism the only way they could."

I'll take it, then, that Serbs are unfamiliar with the relatively ancient arts of propaganda and monetary pacification?

Quote :

"For 20 years we dealt with it peacefully, until it became unbearable."

Ha! The Serbs dealt with Kosovo peacefully because they were using all of their non-peaceful resources to fight Bosnians and Croats. Not that I'm singling out the Serbs here -- if the Croats had some festering population of separatists, I'm sure they would've started killing them in carload lots as soon as the bigger war was done. Just plain bad luck they didn't.

Quote :

"Do you think US will do anything differently?"

If it comes to widespread separatism, I think we'll shoot armed insurrectionists and arrest others. I don't think we'll be dumping women and children into shallow graves.

Quote :

"Nobody ever mentions in the news serbs being killed by albanians ON A DAILY BASIS in Kosovo following the NATO bombing. UN forces are powerless or neutral to the point of being apathetic."

This is a major problem, I'll admit, though it's not one limited to Serbia. NATO/UN forces need to be able to go in with more teeth than they currently possess.

Quote :

"As its own independent country, Kosovo has no sustainable economy."

I don't think this is really all that viable a reason to deny a people autonomy.

2/19/2008 5:02:02 AM

That’s all good, but I find it comical that you are able to debate with such confidence, about a country you never visited, about people whom you never met and about mentality which you know nothing about. I am also quite sure, that through debate and political lingo, you could easily convince me that I am Vietnamese and that I don’t know anything about my own country. Point I am trying to make is that people who lived through most of it this stuff sometimes aren’t sure what is true and what is false information, let alone a media observer from a foreign country. I applaud your confidence (and fairly neutral stance- a good thing), but honestly you are only seeing a tip of an iceberg, at best.

For the record, ex-cro president was Tudjman, not Tubjman...

2/19/2008 10:09:29 AM

Quote :

"Ha! The Serbs dealt with Kosovo peacefully because they were using all of their non-peaceful resources to fight Bosnians and Croats. Not that I'm singling out the Serbs here -- if the Croats had some festering population of separatists, I'm sure they would've started killing them in carload lots as soon as the bigger war was done. Just plain bad luck they didn't."

Not at all. In Bosnia and Croatia, Serbia was largely absent. The fighting that took place in those countries was not by individuals from Serbia. It was being conducted by the VSR and other organizations. The JNA had retreated out of Croatia by the end of 1992.

and the real reason for the problems in 1997 was the economic collapse of Albania and the surge of unemployed bankrupt people into Kosovo.

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 10:45 AM. Reason : .]

2/19/2008 10:32:41 AM

Quote :

"That’s all good, but I find it comical that you are able to debate with such confidence, about a country you never visited, about people whom you never met and about mentality which you know nothing about."

You've heard it here first, folks, the new standard for Soap Box debate: if you have not been to a place, nothing you say about it matters. We'd better go ahead and cease all discussion about Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.

And I have met people, ones who came over here right smack in the middle of the nineties, and some later. People who I assure you have much stronger and more violent opinions about the matter than I myself do.

Quote :

"Not at all. In Bosnia and Croatia, Serbia was largely absent."

I bet it was paying rapt attention to the matter.

Quote :

"and the real reason for the problems in 1997 was the economic collapse of Albania and the surge of unemployed bankrupt people into Kosovo."

From what I gather about the nature of Albania post-communism -- and pre-communism it wouldn't exactly have made my list of vacation destinations -- I can't say I blame them.

2/19/2008 1:28:58 PM

Quote :

"I bet it was paying rapt attention to the matter. "

I am speaking strictly in terms of military. You made the assertion that Serbia was dealing with Kosovo peacefully because it's military was elsewhere. I pointed out that it was not true.

2/19/2008 1:52:06 PM

i can't wait until the world has 10,000 countries

maybe then peace can reign

AM

I

RITE?

2/19/2008 2:21:15 PM

Quote :

"You've heard it here first, folks, the new standard for Soap Box debate: if you have not been to a place, nothing you say about it matters. We'd better go ahead and cease all discussion about Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. And I have met people, ones who came over here right smack in the middle of the nineties, and some later. People who I assure you have much stronger and more violent opinions about the matter than I myself do."

That’s exactly right. Unless you have visited (albeit more than 2 weeks), lived and experienced and have keen understanding of cultural dynamics, your opinion and any pertinent discussion is limited to google, wikipedia and handful of quality news or biased news, whichever you fancy. It’s a good start, but as such, your opinion is inherently skewed in comparison to your average native. Even journalists who spend weeks, months and years in one place rely on interviewing natives to get the coherent picture of the conflict. Your formed opinion consists of journalist’s extremely succinct conclusion.

Your tone of writing is quite oppositional and commanding for someone who is drawing conclusion from few news sources and from college level political science. I don’t pretend I know everything about Iraq conflict and I certainly would not dare be so confident in telling some Iraqi how things are and why things are the way they are. If anything, I would be questioning a lot so I can gather as much as I can.

I don’t think your opinions are strong, they are actually quite bland, but I can tell based on few statements that it comes from mainstream media. Do I blame you? No. Do I expect anything more from you? No.
Believe it or not I will often go through conversation with somebody who thinks they know a lot about the conflict and I will just nod my head and agree. Not because I agree, but because it would take me an eternity to explain and them eternity to understand. I have answered affirmatively to questions “is serbia near australia?” (true question). It really serves no purpose, as I will never change the way they think….and that’s fine. Let me learn on their own. Some of those same people read few articles and all of a sudden they think they understand the situation.
Somebody said that littlebit of knowledge is more dangerous that no knowledge ...and thats very much the truth.

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 3:05 PM. Reason : f]

2/19/2008 3:01:15 PM

1in10^9

Uh ok. Tell me your stance in person. I've actually studied ottoman history quite extensively including the fact that if we actually were in the business of systematically forcing Islam or Death on anyone we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place.

Second, what an Empire that collapsed over a hundred years ago has to do with the fact that Serbs killed thousands of an ethnic minority a decade ago is beyond me. Maybe you hold beef with italians too because the Roman empire coined your ethnic name by selling your people into slavery.

Honestly, I don't think you want to have that conversation since it seems as if its just going to be you getting emotional and looking silly.

2/19/2008 3:41:34 PM

These are you words :

Quote :

"If we go into a historical shitty people contest with fleshed out cause-and-effect I'm pretty sure I can show Serbian's as being very far along on the "could have done without" list."

Clearly shows your opinion. Ottoman empire systematically converted Serbs to Islam, from which present day Bosnian Muslims became. Turkey supported Bosnian Muslims all throughout Bosnian war. What a surprise huh? That empire is present day Turkey and stance towards Islamization and subsequent creation of muslim state within Yugo borders never changed. Preaching that it would be beneficial that Serbs were exterminated does not surprise me coming from a Turk.

For the record Muslims are some 50% majority in Bosnia, not a minority, as are Albanians 95% majority in Kosovo, so I am not sure about what minorities are you talking about? Obviously, you are clueless about the whole conflict.

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 4:23 PM. Reason : f]

2/19/2008 4:20:15 PM

Quote :

"It’s a good start, but as such, your opinion is inherently skewed in comparison to your average native."

Oh, yes, because the views of the natives aren't skewed as hell. That's why Serbs and Albanians have always handled their differences in such a rational manner.

2/19/2008 6:06:41 PM

hmmm, and here I was hoping the Serbs wouldn't resort to violence....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080219/ap_on_re_eu/kosovo_independence

2/19/2008 7:37:47 PM