all E36 and E46?

what about the M3s? what about the Z3/Z4 (coupes and roadsters, decaf and "M" varieties)? What about the E90/E92?

2/18/2008 2:37:21 AM

Regarding e36/z3[M], yes.
e46 yes to some degree.

Haven't heard of any issues re: z4/e9[02]
Good thread re: z3m in particular http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390791

2/18/2008 2:55:25 AM

Could yall explain what the problem is ?

2/18/2008 9:34:08 AM

Both the e36 and e46 M3s have had problems with subframe failures.

If you plan on tracking the car, the subframe reinforcement kit is a must.

This case appears a little on the extreme end for an M3


[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 11:40 AM. Reason : ,,,]

2/18/2008 11:14:25 AM

^ I see red x's.

2/18/2008 11:21:59 AM

^^ only works if you are logged in...safe to say most people aren't

2/18/2008 11:23:18 AM

crap....i have to host the images









[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 11:44 AM. Reason : There we go, you should all be able to see the horror]

2/18/2008 11:37:25 AM

Man that sucks!

2/18/2008 11:47:26 AM

yeah you ain't kidding.....shit is $$$ to fix

by the way that is on an e46 M3

e92/e90 Ms are too new for any feedback on the subframe issue.

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 11:55 AM. Reason : .]

2/18/2008 11:53:25 AM

yeah, i think most of the failures are are cars that've been tracked, but it sounds like some are on street driven cars.

in either case, i'm pretty sure that i'd be in the BMW-breaking group of owners (i only owned my 330ci for about 3 months--didn't have time to do it in).

2/18/2008 12:11:39 PM

on E36 cars it is way more prevalent on 3-series than on m3. it is often a failure on cars that see a lot of track time and/or cars with stiff suspension settings that are daily driven (albeit on shitty roads).

it is less of a problem on e46, but some of the early production years '00-02 had more problems than latter ones.

e9x is too early to see, but it looks like a car is well-built. e36 had horrible torsional rigidity (until you upgrade suspension). i think newer corolla had stiffer chassis.

2/18/2008 1:35:40 PM

seriously, you guys are questioning why a lot of track cars are having probs... ?

thats like me complaining that my gun is rusting because i do a lot of underwater shooting..

and the guns that arent shot underwater are shot in the rain.

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 1:58 PM. Reason : ]

2/18/2008 1:57:37 PM

^^ upgrading suspension does nothing for chassis rigidity. actually, it just highlights chassis flex.

2/18/2008 2:22:11 PM

my buddy just had this happen to his e46 as well, not fun... and lots of $$$

2/18/2008 2:24:00 PM

yeah, i'd thought about buying another 330ci, 330i, or E46 M3, but fuck that. I'm not dealing with that design flaw (not to mention I've heard grumblings about the S54 engine)

2/18/2008 2:37:46 PM

^suspension upgrade, especially if accompanied by strut tower braces will increase chassis rigidity. e46 330i without a cold weather package (aka no folding seats) has higher chassis rigidity than models with zcp package, simply because folding seats reduce rigidity. yes, inherently, chassis is still the same, but you can, through different venues, improve somewhat.

as for the engine... s54 is fine, as long the rod bearing recall was performed (which you can easily check by running a VIN# through your local dealer), or alternatively buy an '03.5 S54 car by which bmw has sorted out the faulty design of the rod bearing. even on earlier cars not all models were subject to this problem. 90% or so occurred by 15k miles or earlier, so the likelihood of the higher mileage early s54 failing due to faulty bearing is next to none.

here is the pie chart of the build date S54s which were most affected by the recall.



[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 3:04 PM. Reason : .]

2/18/2008 2:51:34 PM

ok, see i view strut tower braces as a chassis stiffening upgrade. they basically allow the suspension to work better--but they are not themselves a suspension mod.

stiffening a suspension absolutely does NOT improve chassis rigidity in any way.

2/18/2008 2:59:20 PM

How is the back end of a car falling apart not covered under warranty?

The money you saved on the 10k mile oil changes for the first 4 years should more than cover the back half falling apart at 5 years.



[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 7:11 PM. Reason : .]

2/18/2008 7:11:22 PM

Quote :

"seriously, you guys are questioning why a lot of track cars are having probs... ? thats like me complaining that my gun is rusting because i do a lot of underwater shooting.. and the guns that arent shot underwater are shot in the rain."

If they all fail at the same place and it can be prevented most of the time with a $85 reinforcement plate then BMW fucked up.

2/18/2008 8:53:03 PM

E36 M3s come stock w/ reinforced rear subframe mounts. the nonMs don't have this.

if its not a track car i wouldnt worry about it.

i don't think 1in10^9 knows what a chassis is...

2/18/2008 9:15:30 PM

you can increase chassis rigidity through front/ rear tower braces. strut towers are points where chassis flex is initiated. dumbass

2/18/2008 9:21:04 PM

front/rear strut tower braces arent suspension, theyre ric0r accessories.

2/18/2008 10:27:59 PM

Worked for BMW for 7+ years, I have only seen one.........it was a E36/7.

2/18/2008 11:36:05 PM

On the subject of the s54 engine....its a beautiful feat of engineering (aside from the 01, 02 rod bearing issue )

shit on by 2 things (as per the last Roundel mag.)

1) the brilliant BMW marketing machine and their 8k redline. The M coupe's have far less trouble due to the reduced 7600 rpm redline.

2) for some god awful reason BMW decided to have 15k oil changes.....wtf.....7.5k is more like it

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 11:42 PM. Reason : .]

2/18/2008 11:38:36 PM

15k oil change because they pay for it

Even bmw doesnt want to pay for bmw to change the oil

2/19/2008 7:15:17 PM

I agree that it's really rare. I keep hearing about it, but even at BMW specialty shops, very rare to have one come in, VERY. I've owned a total of 6 e36s, 4 were tracked very hard and quite high the mileage, no subframe issues (one of those was Derk and I's track car for a while, back to back track sessions all over the place with H/R Cup suspension, 170k miles, 325i)... I would say that the subframe issues have come up on cars with dead or very worn bushings/mounts, more so than on "tracked" cars. Problem is the mounts are loaded in shear when things are worn out or loose. If you believe internet data, nobody should own any car, Toyotas have oil baking problems, etc. I'll admit it makes me cringe to think about an engine going bad in a freshly out of warranty 911, but I'm going to pull the trigger as soon as I can, none the less.

I have seen an S54 break through the valve cover with it's loose timing chain at less than 15k miles though... Also note that problem engines have had the warranty extended to 100k miles.

I disagree on the oil change, cars can and do go past 10k miles per oil change just fine nowadays. Porsche's been calling for that for over a decade now. Even my girlfriend's new Civic Si has 10k oil change intervals. Neither Honda nor Porsche pay for their oil changes... I usually change the oil every 5k miles, when I track a car, longer otherwise.
Ahmet -->wouldn't shy away from an e46 b/c of the issues discussed.

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 9:11 PM. Reason : ninja edit, e36 info +911 stuff. ]

2/19/2008 9:08:08 PM

^man knows his e36

2/19/2008 9:25:11 PM

^^^,^^^^

its roughly a 15k oil change due to the type of oil used, its supposedly engineered differently than your oil you buy in the store, dont ask me why its what they told me at school

secondly on the matter of bmw not wanting to pay for oil changes: with the warranty being as comprehensive as it is on these cars, even the oil services are covered free of cost to the owner.

then on top of all that, i talked to a couple of the master techs at work today about this subframe issue and in about 30yrs combined experience none of them have seen/heard of this happening to any car that came in the shop. Im starting to think it could just be a wacked out group of cars in the manufacturing process and some people happen to have torqued the frame hard enough to make them show themselves. I doubt anyone here is really in the chassis breaking crowd from a daily driver standpoint...

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 9:26 PM. Reason : more ^]

2/19/2008 9:25:38 PM

sure, it's a relatively small percentage, but there are enough instances (i'd wager a couple thousand, spread across all of the E36 and E46 models, to include the Zs and Ms) to make me gun shy of them...and the warranty isn't THAT comprehensive--they are generally declining the cover the fucking chassis disintegrating!

(don't get me wrong, I love BMWs. I'm no hater. That's just unsat, though.)

2/19/2008 9:48:02 PM

I don't think the subframe issues were limited to a certain # of cars on the assembly line, they've happened on e36s and e46s, even the Z3s, and e30s. It is VERY rare, but it has happened.

Subject of oil, BMW does use oil that is not available over the counter in the U.S., Porsche uses oil that you and I can buy at the store. Honda doesn't even specify synthetic oil, and still recommends 10k miles for the change (20k for each filter change!). I say that 3k mile intervals are the Jiffy Lube marketing at this point. No you shouldn't go 30k miles on dino oil, but don't forget that there was a time when cars couldn't go past 1000 miles/oil change. Trend is upwards as blowby and other oil pollutants are better controlled, tolerances are tighter, oil temperature is better regulated, etc. Technology moves on. Long live 100k+ plugs, distributor-less ignition, serpentine belts and the like! Yay!
Ahmet

2/19/2008 9:51:35 PM

Duke, I'd wager more like a couple of hundred, out of 100ks of cars made/sold, it's really not that bad, sir.
Ahmet

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 9:53 PM. Reason : if that many. I'd say more like couple of hundred cars for all the serious BMW problems combined...]

2/19/2008 9:52:30 PM

Quote :

"I doubt anyone here is really in the chassis breaking crowd from a daily driver standpoint..."

Funny, I'm quite certain that you or I are up to the task

2/19/2008 10:30:33 PM

I don't give a damn if God himself pissed the oil BMW uses...........I've taken apart too many higher mileage (80k++) engines with regular 15,000 mile interval services.....that look like they've had 1-2 oil changes their entire running life. I'd go with 7500 at the very least..........somewhere around 5,000 miles would be ideal.

2/20/2008 12:06:02 AM

an overly cautious e46 m3 owner actually sent an 10w-60 oil sample to blackstone labs to have his oil analyzed.

"When I changed my oil at 6,000, (5,000 miles on the oil), I sent a sample off to Blackstone for analysis and paid for the extra service of checking the longevity of the special Castrol TWS oil that BMW specifies. The report came back stating that the oil should be good up to 7,000 miles, no further."

I believe he actually posted the report somewhere, but I can't find it.

The 7.5k oil change interval has been verified by several e46 owners who actually saw the sludge deposit difference between an s54 with 7.5k oil changes, and the bmw factory specified oil changes, while doing their value adjustments.

If you look on the e46 M3 forums you will see the majority of owners change the oil sooner than the factory speced 15k. Maybe we all just paranoid, but its better to be safe than sorry with a $$$ engine.

KEEP IN MIND this is only for the S54 engine, not the S52 or S50

The subframe failure is well documented through BMW and the online community, just go to the M forums and search "subframe."

[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 12:56 AM. Reason : .]

2/20/2008 12:44:23 AM

Just to be clear, I'm not recommending people go to 15k for oil changes, esp. if the car's driven hard or in stop/go traffic, many cold starts, etc. I have never changed the oil past 10k miles in anything, but I don't go below 5k miles either.
Ahmet

2/20/2008 1:06:32 AM

FWIW, i used amsoil Euro 5w40 in the E36 M3 and i changed it at 10k intervals all the while daily driving, doing autoxes and at least 3 HPDEs a change. I had it tested w/ the blackstone kit and it came back as "fine for continued use". I DID however change the filter at 5k. Filtration is the key, not so much the oil assuming its a decent synthetic. The amsoil guy i buy from runs 30k intervals on all his family's cars, but uses bit remote oil filters and changes them more often.

All in all, your focusing on the wrong problem, duke. You should be a lot more worried about money shifting and having your rear strut towers fall apart.

2/20/2008 8:23:36 AM

Quote :

"I don't give a damn if God himself pissed the oil BMW uses...........I've taken apart too many higher mileage (80k++) engines with regular 15,000 mile interval services.....that look like they've had 1-2 oil changes their entire running life. I'd go with 7500 at the very least..........somewhere around 5,000 miles would be ideal. "

oh i agree, and so have i...im just stating that horseshit they feed us at school(which im sure youve heard) about how special the damn oil is.

and Duke: i was referring to the oil changes being under warranty, not so much the tearing up of subframes...

2/20/2008 6:16:54 PM

Quote :

" secondly on the matter of bmw not wanting to pay for oil changes: with the warranty being as comprehensive as it is on these cars, even the oil services are covered free of cost to the owner."

You don't make any sense in your attempt to disprove my assumption that the 15k mile oil change is based on their accountants telling their engineers how much money it saves the company.

I mean I'm making shit up that is feasible. Your not even making sense. As far as porsche oil changes are concerned.... doesn't the boxster run 10 quarts of oil by default? At least it is an oil that is readily available so that the price is subject to competition.

2/20/2008 10:29:11 PM

just worked on an 87 e30 and the rear part of the front sway bar mount was broken off the car. so the sway bar was only halfway working. ill be at vir this weekend in it. goldish with gold rs knock offs
what gives? does it happen often?

2/23/2008 1:10:25 AM

^i'm having a very hard time visualizing what you're talking about. with stock sways, I've barely ever heard of them tearing. With larger sways, you're guaranteed to tear the rear trailing arm mounting point out unless they're reinforced. It's just a matter of time.

2/23/2008 1:14:27 AM

sorry....
im talking aboutthe k member part. when i unbolted (on both sides) the rear part of the mount was broken. the part with the short bolt. not the long bolt. you know what im talking about. is this common?

2/23/2008 1:54:45 AM

i don't fully know what youre talking about, but no, i don't know of any front sway bar mounting issues or related reinforcements. The front subframe engine mount points are reinforced on race cars.. but that has nothing to do w/ sway bars of course.

2/23/2008 9:36:52 AM