http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2780291/

Not only will we have a choo choo train someday, but we may also have a river walk and downtown sports arena. So then we will be cool because we will have an L-Train like Chicago and a river walk like San Antonio

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 12:40 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 12:37:51 PM

That would be awesome.

4/24/2008 12:54:29 PM

when are we getting a choo-choo???

the riverwalk in san antonio is highly overrated btw

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:06 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2008 1:05:33 PM

Will the city of Raleigh tax payers really want this though? I don't like the idea of a sports venue downtown. We already have Carter Fienley Stadium, the RBC Center, and Wake Med Soccer Park. I know it is way in the future, but the RBC Center will be good for 100 years if they want it to be.

I also read an article about 2 months ago where the local politicians visited Charlotte to take a ride on the train. Charlotte only averages over 12,000 riders a day I think. Raleigh just wants to waste money on that, so they can pretend to be Chicago and New York.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:07 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 1:06:54 PM

does raleigh really have hte population desnity to support the train?

4/24/2008 1:08:49 PM

^No! The issue comes up in the paper and on the news every now and then. The Federal government already said they aren't giving them any money for it. Raleigh will need a train when the city of Raleigh expands from the grain elavator near the ghetto to the Timber Drive/Highway 70 intersection in Garner.

4/24/2008 1:11:20 PM

I've heard the river walk idea getting kicked around for a few years now, I think it would be a great addition to downtown as it would create a more family oriented destination in the area.

I never heard anything about an L-train though, unless you're talking about the existing elevated track between Glenwood and West.

4/24/2008 1:11:54 PM

Quote :

"Will the city of Raleigh tax payers really want this though?"

If they know how to read, they will grasp the concept of the city selling property to a private developer who will implement the plan.

Quote :

"Charlotte only averages over 12,000 riders a day I think."

The projected ridership estimate was 9,100 / day. The current average is 12,000 / day. They're thinking about adding more trains / cars to the LYNX because demand is so high.

Quote :

"I also read an article about 2 months ago"

You should do a little more research before you start making threads like this.

4/24/2008 1:14:56 PM

Here is a pretty new article that mentions the triangle train. Last I heard it wouldn't even go past the airport. That makes it kind of pointless. These trains only work in places like London and NY where you can step outside your townhouse, hop on the subway, and rigde 3 blocks to work. LA has a train and no one ever uses it. Everyone just drives in the traffic jam.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1021735.html

4/24/2008 1:16:19 PM

who the hell would ride a train for 3 blocks?

4/24/2008 1:18:39 PM

^^^12,000 a day isn't all that much is it? The article I read 2 months ago also said the tax payers shot down the idea of 10 extra miles of rail line being added in Charlotte.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:19 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 1:18:43 PM

12,000/day is barren

4/24/2008 1:22:05 PM

^Doesn't London average over 3,000,000,000 a day? It's somewhere in the low millions I know.

4/24/2008 1:23:41 PM

Quote :

"^Doesn't London average over 3,000,000,000 a day?"

i doubt that

4/24/2008 1:24:28 PM

dc averages around 700,000-800,000/day depending on sports/political events (inaugurations, etc)

4/24/2008 1:25:42 PM

Quote :

"12,000 a day isn't all that much is it? The article I read 2 months ago also said the tax payers shot down the idea of 10 extra miles of rail line being added in Charlotte."

33% more daily riders than expected sounds like a lot to me.

Quote :

"The Blue Line runs from uptown to I-485 at South Boulevard. All along the way you see developers placing their bets that people will be drawn to light rail. The same thing has happened on the edges of Charlotte as the outerbelt slowly closes around the city. Ballantyne wouldn't be where it is if the outerbelt didn't run right by it. But light rail is intended for a different type of commuter. Two weeks ago, on the night that voters chose to keep the transit tax, I talked to Bob Morgan, the president of the Charlotte Chamber and one of the biggest boosters of light rail. He talked about how Bank of America, Wachovia and Charlotte's other big corporations recruit employees from New York and D.C. and Chicago -- cities where rail is a common way to get around. His fear was toppling dominoes: recruits who don't want to come here because Charlotte isn't urban enough, followed by big companies leaving because they can't land recruits."

Charlotte's system sounds pretty successful from what I hear.

4/24/2008 1:30:14 PM

I think daily ridership in NYC is around 8 million.

I heard that Charlotte's train was a success so far and was usually somewhat crowded, I guess its not?

Nobody takes a subway 3 blocks. Most short subway blocks are 4 blocks at a minimum and only fat and lazy ppl actually utilize it for one stop.

4/24/2008 1:33:13 PM

the town I used to live in Texas has a uber nice river walk. The Woodlands is like a Cary on steroids.

4/24/2008 1:33:42 PM

Quote :

"^Doesn't London average over 3,000,000,000 a day?""

Considering there' less than 8,000,000 people there it is unlikely

4/24/2008 1:34:06 PM

Quote :

"LA has a train and no one ever uses it."

You have obviously never been on the LA subway. There are at least 75 homeless people on any line, 24 hours a day.

4/24/2008 1:35:30 PM

OUR TRAIN (charlotte) is DUMB... it goes to dumb places from uptown...

it also stops at 1.... wtf.... run until @least 2:30 please so you can take the drunks home and make our streets safer.

4/24/2008 1:36:04 PM

http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Statistics.htm

Quote :

"London Underground Statistics The biggest, longest, smallest, shortest, deepest and other stats. on London Underground are all here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- General Data Item Statistic Comments Route kilometres 408 kms All lines - 171 kms in tunnels (40%) Sub-surface lines¹ 150 kms 35 km in tunnels Tube lines¹ 289 kms 136 km in tunnels Total passenger journeys/year 970 million year 2000-2001 Total passenger journeys/day 2.7 million Average - some working days record over 3 million. Number of floodgates 19 In tube tunnels Number of Lines 12 5 sub-surface and 7 tube Stations served 275 Stations owned 253 Shortest tunnel 80 metres On the North Curve between Rickmansworth and Croxley Green, Metropolitan Line Longest tunnel 27.8 kms 17.3 miles from Morden to East Finchley via Bank (Northern Line) Longest distance between 2 stations 6.26 kms Chalfont & Latimer to Chesham (Metropolitan) - 3.89 miles Shortest distance between 2 stations 0.25 km Leicester Square to Covent Garden (Piccadilly) - 0.16 miles Longest single journey on 1 train 54.5 kms 34.1 miles between West Ruislip and Epping, Central Line. Average depth of tube lines 24 metres 80 feet Train kms/year 66 million Highest point on system 150 metres Amersham (Metropolitan) - 482 feet Maximum depth below sea level 21.3 metres Waterloo (Northern) Greatest height above ground 18.3 metres Dollis Brook Viaduct (Northern Line over Dollis Road) - 59 feet Deepest below ground 67.4 metres Hollybush Hill, Hampstead (Northern) - 221 feet Total number of escalators 408 Total number of lifts 112 Deepest Sub Surface Station 18.3m Wapping (East London Line) - 60 feet Deepest Tube station 58.5 metres Hampstead (Northern) - 192 feet Deepest Lift 55.2 metres Hampstead (Northern) - 181 feet Shallowest lift 9.3 metres Chalk Farm (Northern) - 30 feet Longest escalator 318 steps Angel (Northern) - 90 feet Shortest escalator 50 steps Chancery Lane (Central) - 15 feet Sharpest curve 61 metres 200 feet radius on the Central Line westbound track between Shepherds Bush and White City Steepest gradient 1 in 28 or 3.57% - between Bow Road and Bromley By Bow, District Line. Busiest station Victoria 76.5 million passengers per year Most passengers on a line District 180 million passengers over 60 km length Busiest Line Victoria 174 million over 20 km length Longest journey Central Line West Ruislip to Epping - 54.5 kms (34 miles) Station with most escalators Waterloo - 25 Avearge Scheduled Speed 33 km/h 20.5 mph (including station stops) "

4/24/2008 1:39:47 PM

Quote :

"OUR TRAIN (charlotte) is DUMB... it goes to dumb places from uptown..."

You sound really smart, so I think I'll agree with you.

Quote :

"I heard that Charlotte's train was a success so far and was usually somewhat crowded, I guess its not?"

It is successful, for what it is (a single rail line with a limited schedule). You can't compare it to established subway systems in NYC or London. Ridership is also not the only factor to consider when measuring its success or failure. Look at the investment in Charlotte's downtown fueled, in part, by the rail line.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:48 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 1:43:01 PM

Found this on the NYC subway system, though it hasn't been updated for last year yet so these are 2006 stats.

Quote :

"In 2006, average weekday subway ridership was 4.9 million, the highest daily number since 1953. Yearly ridership was 1.5 billion, the highest number since 1952."

4/24/2008 1:45:12 PM

the issue is

is 2.7 billion worth it for 12,000 +

even 33% more or whatever, that's still less than 50k

its not cost effective

4/24/2008 1:46:33 PM

yeah fuck no thats horrible.

4/24/2008 1:47:44 PM

Ok , It (the Charlotte light rail) goes from uptown through south end through the bad side of town and ends right before it gets back to a moderately wealthy area... Why? Why would it run there? The current one should run from south end to university area (putting uptown in the middle) not from uptown south to crappy town.

Then they should have another one that runs east west ins a horse-shoe shape going from the airport to uptown to south park... then people would ride them... AND PLEASE TAKE THE DRUNKS HOME FROM THE BARS SO THEY WON'T DRIVE!

4/24/2008 1:49:21 PM

^^^That is pretty bad. But where did you come up with $2.7B?

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:51 PM. Reason : ^]

4/24/2008 1:50:24 PM

the N&O link

i think thats for mass transit overall, but seriously, MOST of the budget will go toward building the infrastructure for the light rail

4/24/2008 1:51:50 PM

^What?

I thought you were trying to come up with a cost per rider for the Charlotte system. Sounds like you're comparing apples and oranges here.

4/24/2008 1:58:14 PM

um charlotte light rail was way over budget and still cost under 1 billion i think it was like 870 mil


@ 2.9 its either going to be huge or b.s.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:59 PM. Reason : ,]

4/24/2008 1:59:15 PM

oh i thought someone said the 12,000 was the projected for RDU

either way

good luck with that raleigh...

enjoy being the overgrown and underplanned clusterfuck that you are developing into!

4/24/2008 2:01:36 PM

^No, 9100 was predicted for Charlotte. They are averaging 12k/ day. I have no clue what was predicted for the Triangle.

4/24/2008 2:03:02 PM

The problem with the Raleigh one was that there were no plans to take it past the airport in the first stage. That makes it kind of pointless and it wasn't going to drop anyone off at the front door of their job in the RTP. I think more buses would be good though.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:06 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:12 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 3:01:53 PM

it would follow on though

youre right that currently it wouldnt

but if you look at a lot of light rail systems

the communities grow around the stops

it happened in northern VA out to the west of the city. you can literally see the stops from the air if youre flying in because each stop has a little cluster of commercial and residential development around it.

but i agree, raleigh is several decades out from the necessity of light rail, and even then, it might just be as poorly planned as it is now

4/24/2008 3:09:08 PM

First off, comparing Charlotte ridership to a city that has more people living in it then the entire State of North Carolina is stupid.

Secondly, while an around-town train model wouldn't work for the triangle, a point-to-point system supported by buses would

For instance, a train from Raleigh to RTP, and then a bus from the station to the various businesses in the area.

OR

A train from RTP to Raleigh, with busing heading downtown.

Also, the next time we propose transit, make sure it stops at the airport.

4/24/2008 3:10:06 PM

^That wouldn't be popular. If I'm going to hop on the train I want to get to where I am going and not have to get off and wait another 10 minutes for the bus to come. If I am going to get on the bus I want it to take me home and not to a place where I have to wait for the train for 10 minutes. Subways work good in Places like New Your because you can get off and are in walking distance of where you want to go.

4/24/2008 3:16:04 PM

welcome to how public transportation works

its just not feasible in raleigh because of its layout/urban-suburban planning

4/24/2008 3:19:19 PM

^I also didn't like the N&O article that I posted. It mentioned another tax increase!

Honestly, if you can't walk to the bus station, or train then what is the point? No one will leave the country area out in Clayton, drive to downtown, park, wait for the train, and then ride to the RTP to work. Subways are for when your whole population lives just blocks away from their job in an overcrowded city like Tokyo.

4/24/2008 3:23:51 PM

Quote :

"but if you look at a lot of light rail systems the communities grow around the stops"

Exactly. A lot of people just don't understand the idea behind light rail. There was so much bullshit in Charlotte when the first line was being debated. Well whaddaya know, it's a success. Light rail is a success nearly every single time when a city makes the jump.

The Triangle is exactly the kind of area that needs a rail system. As it is, we're starting to move in the direction of a place like Atlanta where everything is all over the place and traffic is an absolute clusterfuck. We need a way to link RTP, Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, and Cary, and something that will encourage growth in a logical manner.

Comparing it to subway systems in major cities isn't a good idea, because it's a completely different concept.

The latest plan that was brought forward a couple months ago addresses a lot of the flaws in the first plan, and integrates RTP much better

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:27 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 3:24:23 PM

^Not if there is a tax increase. Tax increases should go to fixing some of the roads around here. We have a lot of pot holes. Maybe the roads with too many pot holes could be cut out and turned into the boardwalk river!

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:27 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 3:27:13 PM

^^atlanta has light rail

ill designed, but whats to say raleigh would fare better?

4/24/2008 3:29:53 PM

btw, What is the tourist trap that is going to draw people to the boardwalk area? Don't we need a really famous historic landmark, or a theme park first?

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:31 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 3:30:48 PM

I can understand why people would be opposed to the half cent sales tax for it; people hate taxes, plain and simple. For me personally, though, I would accept that any day for a regional rail system. There are so many things that come with the development of a light rail line that are great for a city, and I like the potential this area has. I had no problems with the tax when I lived in Charlotte, and I think the rail line there turned out great.

4/24/2008 3:32:24 PM

^^Something similar to the American Tobacco Campus in Durham.

WRAL's article was misleading. The Riverwalk would likely be a mixed use development oriented around a restored stream. Its not going to be some huge hokey tourist trap. BTW, the museums & state gov't bring boat loads of people to downtown. We might as well give them places to spend money. Lets put some of their money into the local economy.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:38 PM. Reason : ^'s]

4/24/2008 3:33:52 PM

I did hear Disney was thinking about creating smaller versions of Disney World around our country. Maybe the city could get them to build one of those, so that we have a reason to attract people to the boardwalk.

4/24/2008 3:36:17 PM

Quote :

"^^atlanta has light rail ill designed, but whats to say raleigh would fare better?"

Well I would assume they would get somebody competent to design it, and I like the plans so far.

It's also exactly why local and state government support is a must. MARTA doesn't get the funding it needs, and many of the surrounding counties use their own bus systems, so nothing is integrated.

Beyond that, I don't really have an answer. MARTA is probably the biggest mass transit failure in the country.

4/24/2008 3:37:41 PM

you assume a whole lot out of state and regional planners to just hand them $2.7B

4/24/2008 3:39:58 PM

Quote :

"It's also exactly why local and state government support is a must."

Local business support is much more crucial. Charlotte's business leaders were all about light rail, while RTP does not care about transit. Since RTP can't be efficiently served by transit, we're not likely to have fixed guideway transit anytime soon.

Quote :

"you assume a whole lot out of state and regional planners to just hand them $2.7B"

Who is handing out $2.7 billion? Can we please stop throwing around random numbers?

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:44 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 3:43:02 PM

Quote :

"TAXPAYER COST The group's estimate is $2.27 billion in today's dollars, over 20 years. But the total taxpayer cost would depend on the scope and timing of the work; inflation makes future construction more costly in real dollars."

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1021735.html

you asked for where the number came from

and you didnt even bother to go look in the story i referenced

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:47 PM. Reason : sorry, 2.27 billion]

4/24/2008 3:45:55 PM