the Bachelor's Degree

http://chronicle.com/temp/email2.php?id=wWwv6kBkcTbYktwbjrJkskjtdhknjqvf

Quote :

"Among my saddest moments as a career counselor is when I hear a story like this: "I wasn't a good student in high school, but I wanted to prove that I can get a college diploma. I'd be the first one in my family to do it. But it's been five years and $80,000, and I still have 45 credits to go." I have a hard time telling such people the killer statistic: Among high-school students who graduated in the bottom 40 percent of their classes, and whose first institutions were four-year colleges, two-thirds had not earned diplomas eight and a half years later. That figure is from a study cited by Clifford Adelman, a former research analyst at the U.S. Department of Education and now a senior research associate at the Institute for Higher Education Policy. Yet four-year colleges admit and take money from hundreds of thousands of such students each year! Even worse, most of those college dropouts leave the campus having learned little of value, and with a mountain of debt and devastated self-esteem from their unsuccessful struggles. Perhaps worst of all, even those who do manage to graduate too rarely end up in careers that require a college education. So it's not surprising that when you hop into a cab or walk into a restaurant, you're likely to meet workers who spent years and their family's life savings on college, only to end up with a job they could have done as a high-school dropout."

I couldn't agree more.

4/30/2008 10:56:00 PM

hmmm my Bachelor's Degree is paying me back 3x my investment into it; in the 1st year,

4/30/2008 11:01:04 PM

well, if you wouldn't get a degree in history or English, then u might be able to get a job that actually pays something. but that's just my thoughts on the matter...

4/30/2008 11:04:24 PM

The average person with a college degree will earn over a million dollars more than one without one. I heard that on the radio the other day. Dont know if its true or not, but I can see it.

Ive never understood why someone would go to Duke to then teach english in public schools. What a waste of cash.

4/30/2008 11:06:46 PM

Quote :

"Among high-school students who graduated in the bottom 40 percent of their classes, and whose first institutions were four-year colleges, two-thirds had not earned diplomas eight and a half years later. "

I guess that's why there were in the bottom half. They should have stuck with vocational school or learned a trade. The Bachelor's Degree is definately overrated.

4/30/2008 11:07:19 PM

You and I may be able to find common ground here. Let's see if we can.

I--and many others--posit that not everyone can or should pursue a four-year degree. I mean, I've known plenty of people that have and others that could have benefited from vocational and technical education: electricians, E&I techs, HVAC techs, masons, plumbers, refrigeration techs, healthcare workers, welders, and so on.

Businesses are skewing job placement by requiring BA/BS degrees of entry-level office assistants and the like. In some cases, these businesses are also offloading a significant portion of their OJT costs onto colleges and universities.

I have even heard individuals with the HR departments at State and Carolina "bragging" that they had a person with a master's from Duke answering the phones. That's not desirable--that's a broken system! There are undoubtedly eager individuals out there that more closely match the education requirements for such positions--I mean, doesn't anyone realize that the Duke masters' holders began scanning the horizon for their next jobs as soon as the phone-answering jobs were accepted? Who in hell gets a master's to answer phones?

In any event, in many cases these days, the bachelor's degree will not get you to where it once would. The master's is the new vehicle to reach that destination.

[Edited on April 30, 2008 at 11:19 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2008 11:12:51 PM

i am glad i got my degree, granted i am doing a job that didnt require one, it helps my pay and promotion prospects

4/30/2008 11:36:34 PM

obesity and dependence

4/30/2008 11:38:32 PM

America's Most Underrated Product

education for education's sake

4/30/2008 11:39:30 PM

^

Quote :

"I'm not an academic, actually."

LostClues

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=518685&page=4

4/30/2008 11:47:25 PM

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

4/30/2008 11:49:37 PM

I kinda wonder how people fail out of college

just do the work, it's not that hard

5/1/2008 12:06:30 AM

Quote :

"Businesses are skewing job placement by requiring BA/BS degrees of entry-level office assistants and the like. In some cases, these businesses are also offloading a significant portion of their OJT costs onto colleges and universities."

OMG this is so true. Departments throughout the entire university are persistently hassled by their industry counterparts to get the curriculum tuned to what they want. And it's usually not a good thing, it's just a matter of "put more business classes in". if GE could, they would have us spending our college education reading basically workplace manuals.

community college FTW

Quote :

"In any event, in many cases these days, the bachelor's degree will not get you to where it once would. The master's is the new vehicle to reach that destination."

When there are so many people getting the degree just for the heck of it, this is almost understandable. But with the increasing level of education of the whole of society... it's like grade inflation. Look at countries like Sweden and South Korea. Some people are practically paralyzed with just a bachelors degree. We're almost unique in having a significant HS educated class of society. But you know... makes my degree more useful.

5/1/2008 7:48:58 AM

Quote :

"hmmm my Bachelor's Degree is paying me back 3x my investment into it; in the 1st year"

Quote :

"well, if you wouldn't get a degree in history or English, then u might be able to get a job that actually pays something. but that's just my thoughts on the matter..."

That's not even what the article is talking about.

The problem lies in the fact that we sell bachelor's degrees to kids as the singular means of success.

Even when some kids are simply intellectually incurious and/or lazy, and won't get any benefit from going to college.

Yet we structure our K-12 system so that every single kid in America is held to a college-prep curriculum. As if anything less is inadequate.

5/1/2008 8:02:23 AM

^As if anything different is inadequate.

But, yeah, I feel you.

I also think it would be nice to relegitimize the work that doesn't involve a college degree. For the most part, those jobs are really, really important work, and if folks don't respect it and pay an honest dollar for it, it's not gonna get done, and if it does, it's not gonna get done right.

Quote :

"I kinda wonder how people fail out of college just do the work, it's not that hard"

The thing is that it is hard. It's really, really hard for some people. And when they're trying to balance college with a social life and a job, it can become impossible.

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 8:55 AM. Reason : sss]

5/1/2008 8:43:34 AM

mine is paying itself off. at a decent pace. but's it's no cake walk.

and i also don't feel like paying extra taxes next year b/c some democrat wants to bail out these people that make dumb decisions either.

5/1/2008 8:51:21 AM

Quote :

"Even when some kids are simply intellectually incurious and/or lazy, and won't get any benefit from going to college."

well, these kids are simply a wash anyway. There's no hope of any sort of success for these people at all. It's just a matter of keeping them from robbing, raping, killing, and otherwise bothering the rest of those who do choose to make the most of the opportunities given to us.

5/1/2008 9:07:19 AM

This is why I pushed my sister towards engineering and not some bullshit degree in dance, math, english, history, etc....

5/1/2008 9:17:30 AM

if the high school system was worth a damn, and kids actually left HS with a working knowledge of the world it wouldnt be a big deal

5/1/2008 9:47:39 AM

Quote :

"Ive never understood why someone would go to Duke to then teach english in public schools. What a waste of cash."

its all about the snobbery. "I went to Duke!", well thats fucking great because you could have gone to wake tech and gotten the same job making the same money. (in teaching positions at least)

5/1/2008 10:02:28 AM

Quote :

"This is why I pushed my sister towards engineering and not some bullshit degree in dance, math, english, history, etc...."

those degrees are only bullshit if you dont use them for what they are intended for. kinda like if someone got a CE degree and went to teach pre-school. thats not helping anyone.

believe it or not, engineering is not the end-all-be-all of how the world turns.

Quote :

"I kinda wonder how people fail out of college just do the work, it's not that hard "

I agree...especially compared to the college experience of your parents...the technology advances that enable research, compounded with an overall dumbing down of cirriculum.

Laziness/desire to party gets most of those people. I feel very little sympathy for the majority of them.

5/1/2008 10:02:39 AM

i think half the people here are missing the point. the idea here is that colleges are admitting lots of students when they know that a LARGE chunk of them have no business being in college in the first place. they just want their money.

5/1/2008 10:14:58 AM

welcome to the free market.


I disagree though with respect to its worthlessness.. At least for me, the leap between my critical thinking skills in high school and my critical thinking skills in college college were remarkable and I, for one, am all for a better informed populace in a republic. I'd like to think that that is a common occurrence across the board, but TSB has proved me wrong time and again on that statement.

5/1/2008 10:20:01 AM

^^ and why shouldn't they?

yeh good one. let's start denying poor people the right to an education b/c we "think" the colleges are out for profit herding.

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 10:20 AM. Reason : .]

5/1/2008 10:20:06 AM

i'm not saying i know a solution and i see the problems with making standards tougher. maybe the criteria for entrance should just be rethought.

5/1/2008 10:25:53 AM

^ Yes, it should be much more difficult to be accepted into college. This is one way to help make the four-year degree mean something again.

5/1/2008 11:48:36 AM

I disagree. It already is VERY difficult to get into a good school. It is ultra-competitive coming from high school right now.

Society always benefits from having its people educated.

Your 4-year degree means something...you just have to figure better and different ways to set yourself apart.



[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 12:21 PM. Reason : .]

5/1/2008 12:20:58 PM

not all four year degrees mean something.

its really not that hard to get into college, at all. you can make all b's in regular or college prep courses or you could take an honors class in high school and be likely to get that same B, yet look like a student that cares more about learning and also have a higher GPA due to the weighting. just like anything else in life, its a game. some play, and some don't. but as a general rule its not that hard to get into college in the united states. our four year colleges are the caribbean med schools of the world.

Quote :

"you just have to figure better and different ways to set yourself apart."

That lower 40% that gets into school, if they do make it out with a degree, are going to be unlikely to have the motivation and the composition to do so.

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 12:40 PM. Reason : diva]

5/1/2008 12:37:43 PM

Quote :

"That lower 40% that gets into school, if they do make it out with a degree, are going to be unlikely to have the motivation and the composition to do so."

that is their problem. I could not care less about people without motivation and composition.

5/1/2008 1:02:28 PM

^^^ I hope you aren't lecturing me on the value of and how to use my degree. I was referring to the general perception of the degradation of the four-year degree.

And I stand by my position--no matter how difficult it is to get into college now. It should be even more difficult.

5/1/2008 1:19:56 PM

dont be defensive. I am not lecturing anyone but your position that we should have less people getting higher education in our country is counterproductive to the common good of all.

5/1/2008 1:22:33 PM

Quote :

"well, if you wouldn't get a degree in history or English, then u might be able to get a job that actually pays something. but that's just my thoughts on the matter..."

Which is why the number of students in those programs should be limited. What's the point of marine biology if it's not going to immediately lead to a graduate getting a job in marine biology?

Not to mention, there's a lot of jobs that should be done with only a trade or associate degree at most, instead of a bachelor's degree.

Quote :

"Departments throughout the entire university are persistently hassled by their industry counterparts to get the curriculum tuned to what they want. And it's usually not a good thing, it's just a matter of "put more business classes in". if GE could, they would have us spending our college education reading basically workplace manuals."

But they're the ones hiring that school's graduates, otherwise the university wouldn't be listening to them to start with. So if NC State puts out a bunch of graduates that GE has no use for, then GE won't hire any of them, and that's not good for NC State. The only reason universities exist is to prepare people for the workplace (that's the noble reason, the real reason is to make money, which is why most jobs now require a B.S.)

Besides, there was a saying in the engineering school, you only use 10% of what you learn in college in your job.

Quote :

"I disagree though with respect to its worthlessness.. At least for me, the leap between my critical thinking skills in high school and my critical thinking skills in college college were remarkable and I, for one, am all for a better informed populace in a republic."

I think less of that is college and more of it is just plain maturity. You don't have to be a college graduate to get a greater appreciation of the world and how to think through fixing problems from 18 to 25 for example.

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 1:36 PM. Reason : /]

5/1/2008 1:29:02 PM

Quote :

"well, if you wouldn't get a degree in history or English, then u might be able to get a job that actually pays something. but that's just my thoughts on the matter... "

the lawyers who I work with beg to differ - a history major can land you into an awesome law school

5/1/2008 1:29:11 PM

Quote :

"That's not to say that professor-taught classes are so worthwhile. The more prestigious the institution, the more likely that faculty members are hired and promoted much more for their research than for their teaching. Professors who bring in big research dollars are almost always rewarded more highly than a fine teacher who doesn't bring in the research bucks. Ernest L. Boyer, the late president of the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, used to say that winning the campus teaching award was the kiss of death when it came to tenure. "

This quote from the article reminds me so much of Professor Kleinstreuer in the Mechanical Engineering Department.

Is he still "teaching", anyone in ME?

5/1/2008 1:52:12 PM

Quote :

"The only reason universities exist is to prepare people for the workplace"

And this is the fundamental problem. Universities should not exist to prepare people for the workplace. That task should be easily accomplished by high school and trade schools. Universities should exist for expanding knowledge, a place to learn for learnings sake and a place to be a researcher, to expand the wealth of human knowledge. No one should have to pay multiple thousands of dollars just to be "ready for the work place"

5/1/2008 2:12:41 PM

Quote :

" that is their problem. I could not care less about people without motivation and composition."

Quote :

"but your position that we should have less people getting higher education in our country is counterproductive"

These two comments dont' exactly fly with each other DaBird

see what i did there?

anyways, the point i believe he is trying to make is that if you make the institutions harder to get into, then this lower 40% without the motivation or composition, who you don't care about, won't be able to get into these schools and the schools could focus on improving overall quality of the education that comes out of these institutions. A change which i believe would be quite productive for our countries needs in a global economy.

5/1/2008 3:02:50 PM

Quote :

"These two comments dont' exactly fly with each other DaBird see what i did there? anyways, the point i believe he is trying to make is that if you make the institutions harder to get into, then this lower 40% without the motivation or composition, who you don't care about, won't be able to get into these schools and the schools could focus on improving overall quality of the education that comes out of these institutions. A change which i believe would be quite productive for our countries needs in a global economy. "

firstly, to clarify, I dont think the entire 40% lack motivation and composition. there is a percentage here that does and it is much smaller than that. I dont care if that smaller percentage fall behind, flunk out, etc...if they do, it is their own fault or lack of said motivation.

secondly, I believe everyone should have a chance in life to make something of themselves. a 4-year degree is part of that for most of us. if they fail because they arent good enough, fine. however, you should not limit them from trying hence why I am against making it any tougher to get into school.

this is a crux of my belief; everyone can attend public school, make good grades and get a student loan to go to school...IF THEY TRY HARD ENOUGH...no matter their ethnic, economic or racial background. that is the way it is supposed to be.



further, the cream always rises to the top. if someone is insecure about their degree and their corresponding place in the workplace because there are more people with a 4 year degree, they need to do something else to assure their place...more education, a specialty license, etc...

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 3:24 PM. Reason : .]

5/1/2008 3:23:26 PM

^^
I agree.

What exactly is the point of getting a 2.0 at UNCG or ECU or wherever? It benefits no one but the school that took the money.

To their credit, don't a lot of schools do give you the boot after multiple semesters of 1.0-2.0 grades?

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 3:24 PM. Reason : ^^]

5/1/2008 3:23:49 PM

it benefits that person who got the knowledge and the degree (if they graduated). there are plenty of programs of acedemia in those schools that are challenging. that person with the 2.0 from ECU who graduated is MUCH better off with that degree than if they had not. I argue society is better as well, because that person has a much better shot at making a reasonable income to support themself, as well being more educated and contributing to society in non-qualifiable ways.

5/1/2008 3:26:55 PM

I disagree with that.

If you get a 2.0 from one of those schools, you clearly didn't bother to learn much of anything.

When you factor in the opportunity costs of going to college and learning squat, it's not beneficial at all.

5/1/2008 3:31:58 PM

are you kidding?

are you trying to argue that a person with no degree would get a better job and make more money than a person with a 2.0 GPA who graduated? GTFO of here. that makes no sense.

you can always get jobs below your education. you can almost never get jobs above it.

now, if you go and dont finish, then yes, it is a huge waste of time and money.

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 3:35 PM. Reason : . ]

5/1/2008 3:34:03 PM

Quote :

"that person with the 2.0 from ECU who graduated is MUCH better off with that degree than if they had not."

You can't really argue this. its true for some cases, not for all and not even nearly for most. A lot of it depends in what they have their degree. if their degree is in psychology, then probably not. if their degree is in nursing, then probably so (although i don't want a 2.0 nurse). I know someone from NC State who had a 3.something in psychology and they work right beside people who never went to college and actually underneath people who are younger than them because they started right after HS. Most of that 40% aren't going in with intent to become an engineer or an architect or a nurse. You're going to get a lot of comm and psych majors out of that lot who will not be able to do much they couldn't already do without going to college. i'm not saying prevent anyone who wants to go to school to go to school and make something of themselves, but its clear that those who would want that would really take the reigns of such an opportunity would likely not be in that lower 40%.

5/1/2008 3:35:21 PM

college degree > no college degree

to do anything. how do you argue against that? your exact line of study often means very little to the career you enter. I have a comm degree and I am a PM for a large commercial construction company. I certainly would not be where I am without it.

5/1/2008 3:37:49 PM

Quote :

"are you kidding? are you trying to argue that a person with no degree would get a better job and make more money than a person with a 2.0 GPA who graduated? GTFO of here. that makes no sense. you can always get jobs below your education. you can almost never get jobs above it."

I'm totally not kidding.

Quite a few of my slacker friends have been unable to land a job that they couldn't have gotten without a degree.

Like he^ said; if you're going to earn grades like that at schools like these, you'd be better off skipping college and starting in retail four or five years earlier.

Go survey the employees at a Starbucks or Barnes and Noble. In my experience, there will be a whole lot of college graduates working under a whole lot of non-graduates.


^You're not getting it. Yes, degree > no degree. However, a low GPA degree at an average school, and four years of wasted time, and a load of debt is not always better.


[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 3:44 PM. Reason : .]

5/1/2008 3:40:30 PM

Quote :

"Like he^ said; if you're going to earn grades like that at schools like these, you'd be better off skipping college and starting in retail four or five years earlier. Go survey the employees at a Starbucks or Barnes and Noble. In my experience, there will be a whole lot of college graduates working under a whole lot of non-graduates. "

I understand your point and I think that can be accurate for the short term...in the long term the degree-holders will be better off. Like it or not, for most people there is a ceiling that they reach without a degree. Most company's mgt programs require a degree.

5/1/2008 3:44:00 PM

Are the type of students who earn a 2.0 at ECU going to ever reach that ceiling?

5/1/2008 3:45:16 PM

just because at age 21 you screw around and drink too much beer in college does not mean your work ethic is screwed the rest of your life. people mature. additionally, once you are 25+, no employer gives a shit about your college GPA. they just want to know if you have a degree.

5/1/2008 3:50:57 PM

Quote :

"And this is the fundamental problem. Universities should not exist to prepare people for the workplace. That task should be easily accomplished by high school and trade schools. Universities should exist for expanding knowledge, a place to learn for learnings sake and a place to be a researcher, to expand the wealth of human knowledge. No one should have to pay multiple thousands of dollars just to be "ready for the work place" "

That is not the fundamental problem. It's the only reason I went to college was to learn how to prepare myself to make a living. A lot of people aren't rich enough to just fling money everywhere for no result. And as far as I am concerned, NC State is a trade school for engineering, it taught me how to get into the engineering trade. At the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, some people there are taught how to get into the law trade or the doctor trade.

Preparing people for a job is the only reason we even have state-ran and primarily state-funded universities. Cause the state realizes that they need to crank out able young men and women to be employed in the state and its industries or services (like schools).

If you want to go to college to learn about the French Revolution's impact on modern culture, the power to you, but I don't think taxpayers should pay for it. You can go learn about that at Duke or Wake Forest or Shaw or some other private college that costs a tankload of money.

And besides, if you want to expand the wealth of human knowledge, you don't need college to do that. I love reading history as a side exercise, but I don't feel the need to fork out 30 grand a year to study it. I can just go buy a 400-page book on the Spanish Civil War and read through it. It's a lot cheaper and I'll receive just as much information.



[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 4:13 PM. Reason : /]

5/1/2008 4:02:48 PM

Quote :

"college degree > no college degree to do anything. how do you argue against that? your exact line of study often means very little to the career you enter. I have a comm degree and I am a PM for a large commercial construction company. I certainly would not be where I am without it."

And you don't see a problem with this? The fact that it is entirely irrelevant what you studied or what you know, just that you paid thousands of dollars for a piece of paper that says that you may or may not have studied something? It's entirely insane that your degree shouldn't matter other than you having it. Why bother with the degree at all then?

Quote :

"I understand your point and I think that can be accurate for the short term...in the long term the degree-holders will be better off. Like it or not, for most people there is a ceiling that they reach without a degree. Most company's mgt programs require a degree."

By the time you reach that ceiling someone will pay you to go to school. I can't tell you how many professionals I went to classes with, all of whom were being paid by their company to get their degree, and in some cases not only were they paying tuition, but they were actually paying half time for any time spent in class that took away from their time at work. If you really need it, someone will pay you to get it.

Quote :

"That is not the fundamental problem. It's the only reason I went to college was to learn how to prepare myself to make a living."

And how much did you get out of college (other than the piece of paper) that you could not have gotten just as well if not better with 4-6 years of experience and on the job training? Did you really need to fork out 30k a year just to learn how to build a bridge?

You don't need colleges to teach you how. In fact, it's a waste of money and resources for a college or university to teach you how. A university should teach you why.

5/1/2008 6:11:09 PM

Quote :

"By the time you reach that ceiling someone will pay you to go to school. I can't tell you how many professionals I went to classes with, all of whom were being paid by their company to get their degree, and in some cases not only were they paying tuition, but they were actually paying half time for any time spent in class that took away from their time at work. If you really need it, someone will pay you to get it."

This cannot be understated. Another thing is that the lower 40% is not mature enough to make it in college. After a few years of working in the real would, a good chunk of them will gain the discipline and the desire needed to go through college work.

[Edited on May 1, 2008 at 10:28 PM. Reason : .]

5/1/2008 10:27:38 PM