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Wyloch
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I will buy that Cadillac.

I will break my own rule and purchase a new car, and I will buy that Cadillac.

Build it.

10/11/2011 3:45:31 PM

Wyloch
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?

[Edited on October 11, 2011 at 3:46 PM. Reason : double post?]

10/11/2011 3:46:01 PM

TKE-Teg
All American
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People do realize that the Volt is based off of the same platform as the Cruze? The comparison seems pretty valid to me.

10/11/2011 3:50:39 PM

Igor
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Tesla Roadster is based on the same platform as Elise, but while they may be comparable in dynamics, they are two completely different cars with different capabilitites. The powertrain difference between Volt and Cruise are even more differentiating, because those cars are actually practical and meant for daily driving. There are other examples of things that mostly differ mostly in the powertrain but serve an entirely different purpose based on that difference, such as buses, boats, locomotives, and submarines. Hell, even make you buy a water heater, fuel type makes all the difference. So Volt and Cruise comparison is definitely apples to oranges.

10/12/2011 8:45:23 AM

TKE-Teg
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Quote :
"Tesla Roadster is based on the same platform as Elise, but while they may be comparable in dynamics, they are two completely different cars with different capabilitites"


Yeah, the Tesla beats the Elisa in a drag race...and loses by every other metric.

10/12/2011 9:31:29 AM

0EPII1
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http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/after-11000-miles-jay-leno-closes-in-on-year-without-refueling-his-chevy-volt/

After Almost 11,000 Miles, Jay Leno Closes In on a Year Without Refueling His Chevy Volt

Quote :
"LOS ANGELES — Jay Leno is nearing a milestone.

“I took delivery of the Volt on Dec. 12 last year,” Mr. Leno said in a telephone interview before appearing Tuesday at a Chevrolet event held in conjunction with the Los Angeles auto show. “And I’ve never had to put gas in it yet.”

The comedian and late-night television host said he had put about 11,000 miles on his Chevrolet Volt in the last 11 months.

“They gave it to me with a full tank of gas,” he said. The tank, by the way, holds 9.3 gallons. “I’ve used less than half of that.”"

11/17/2011 5:31:25 PM

Stein
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Should've just bought the Leaf then.

11/18/2011 8:58:37 AM

TKE-Teg
All American
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I'm curious to know how someone that busy (and owns that many cars) is able to drive 11,000 miles just around town. That's a lot of time. I'm calling BS.

11/18/2011 9:07:34 AM

CarZin
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I've been seeing more of them on the road. 3 in the last week. All different colors.

11/18/2011 10:12:12 AM

cyrion
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^^ if he is truly busy, he could be driving all over the place?

11/18/2011 12:07:39 PM

CarZin
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I drive 25k miles a year to and from work. Since its obvious this is his daily driver, and he is known to drive himself to and from work, this seems reasonable.

11/18/2011 1:58:41 PM

arghx
Deucefest '04
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So I've been studying the Volt in an effort to understand its various modes of operation. There is some confusion and misinformation floating around the internet about it.



The Voltec 4ET50 transaxle has two planetary gearsets, one for splitting power and one that functions as the final drive. "Motor B" is the main electric driving motor. It is always attached to the planetary carrier. "Motor A" is the generator which also functions as an auxiliary driving motor. It can be connected to the ring gear through a wet clutch pack ("Clutch 2"), the kind you normally find in a traditional slushbox. The internal combustion engine can be connected to the generator through another wet clutch pack, "Clutch 3". "Clutch 1" is a holding clutch pack meant to stop the ring gear from moving.



The Voltec has four main modes. The first two are for electric operation only:

1) Single electric motor mode - during this mode, the Motor B directly drives the wheels. Clutch 1 engages, making the ring gear stationary. The planetary carrier rotates and directly drives the sun gear, which transfers power to the final drive unit. Functionally speaking this is like having the car in 1st gear during electric driving mode. It provides the most torque to the wheels but is less efficient at higher vehicle speeds.

2) Two motor mode - this is like having the vehicle in 2nd gear during electric operation. This was simpler and easier than having an actual 2nd gear in the transaxle. In this mode, Clutch 2 engages and power is supplied to the ring gear from Motor A and to the plantary carrier from Motor B. The Volt can continuously vary the speeds of the two motors to keep the vehicle at an efficient operating point in high speed operation.



[Edited on December 4, 2011 at 8:40 AM. Reason : .]

12/4/2011 8:37:21 AM

arghx
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The Voltec has two more modes, which are used during extended-range operation.

3) Series One Motor extended range - this is what you normally would think of when you are talking about a series hybrid with a generator functionality. Clutch 3 engages, connecting the engine to generator. The generator supplies electrical energy to charge the battery. Clutch 1, the holding clutch pack, keeps the ring gear stationary. Motor B, connected to the planetary carrrier, drives the wheels just like in single-motor electric operation. There are two problems with having the engine only charge the battery during range-extending mode: just like in single motor electric operation above, you have inefficiencies at high speeds because the system is essentially still in 1st gear. The second problem is that there are a lot of energy losses as energy converts from gasoline to flywheel torque to electricity, then back into driving torque again.

4) Combined Two Motor extended range - this mode seems to be criticized and poorly understood. It is the extended-range version of the electric "two motor mode" above. Clutch 2 connects Motor B to the ring gear and the two electric motors' speeds can be varied to stay in an optimum range, just like the electric two-motor mode mentioned earlier. Clutch 3 connects the engine to Motor B. The engine never directly drives the wheels. The whole point of this mode is to reduce mechanical losses and use a better effective gear ratio for high speed operation.

12/4/2011 8:38:08 AM

TKE-Teg
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Car and Driver tested one against the Chevy Cruze Eco. Apparently it would take over 200,000 miles of electric only driving the Volt to offset the cost difference.

FTL

12/5/2011 8:57:12 AM

optmusprimer
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No one is buying a $40K midsize Volt to save money.

12/5/2011 10:04:24 AM

synapse
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^^ hahaha you are such a hater.

^ exactly. it's what we keep telling you, it's not always about saving money, or saving the environment, or whatever strawman you wanna throw up to hack down.

12/5/2011 10:13:27 AM

y0willy0
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sometimes its all about having a car whose operation you dont understand!

12/5/2011 11:10:28 AM

TKE-Teg
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^^You're right, making a correct financial statement makes me a hater. Excuse me for not seeing the draw in new yet inferior technology.

^he knows.

[Edited on December 5, 2011 at 11:25 AM. Reason : being practical =/ hating]

12/5/2011 11:22:57 AM

Igor
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Great achievements are rarely made as a result of someone being practical

12/5/2011 11:50:48 AM

TKE-Teg
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EVs existed in the 1910s, what's your point?

12/5/2011 12:21:06 PM

Stein
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Quote :
"Great achievements are rarely made as a result of someone being practical"


When did we start talking about great achievements?

Or is that slang for "conceptually cool, but ultimately underwhelming"?

12/5/2011 2:34:43 PM

Igor
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Ok now I know that you guys are either trolling or stupid. Yes, EVs existed in 1910s. Rockets also existed in China hundreds of years ago, but were they needed then to deploy a satellite on a precise orbit or take humans and lab equipment into weightless environment? Great achievement I am talking about is breaking through to the public that alternative fuel can be practical and affordable to a wide range of Americans.

Is it the production Volt dull looking? Yes
Is it dynamically underwhelming? Probably so
Is it more expensive than comparable old tech? Just like anything else first-gen

Did it prove that, without a massively expensive upgrade in infrastructure, majority of the Americans can keep their current driving habits without relying on foreign oil, which happens to be a catalyst for things like international conflict and environmental pollution? It sure did. Not the garage-built conversions that's been arouns since 70's, not the EV-1, not Tesla Roadster, not Aptera, not Prius, not Leaf, but Volt. Yes, Fisker Karma will be sexier, BMW i series will be more futuristic and technologically advanced, Rimac will be the faster, and at the end some yet-to-be-announced Hyundai will probably be the cheapest. But they would not be around right now without the major push that GM provided for the plug-in market.

You guys are such fucking nearsighted penny pinchers that your parents probably had to talk you into going to college by having to explain to you you will make more money after you graduate


[Edited on December 6, 2011 at 9:34 AM. Reason : .]

12/6/2011 9:32:15 AM

TKE-Teg
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Quote :
"which happens to be a catalyst for things like international conflict and environmental pollution?"


LMAO, where do you think the materials for the batteries comes from? Perhaps fairy dust and unicorns? No, they comes from dirty dirty Chinese mines where the destruction of the environmental is far more real than the effects of a trace gas. I suppose being dependent on China for precious metals in addition to financial loans is a good thing?

Oh and speaking of batteries, the problems and hazards continue to mount up...

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/12/chevrolet-volt-battery-issues-growing-safety-findings-may-have-been-suppressed.html

[Edited on December 6, 2011 at 11:21 AM. Reason : k]

12/6/2011 11:20:46 AM

arghx
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I respect a lot of the engineering that went into the Volt, but this issue with battery fires may taint the car permanently. This car could be a financial disaster for GM/taxpayers if it isn't already.

12/6/2011 12:10:58 PM

Stein
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Quote :
"Did it prove that, without a massively expensive upgrade in infrastructure, majority of the Americans can keep their current driving habits without relying on foreign oil, which happens to be a catalyst for things like international conflict and environmental pollution? It sure did. "


Considering they've sold less than 7,000 total in a year, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it didn't. Also considering that of all the cars Chevy sold in November, the Volt accounted for less than one percent, they really haven't proven that anyone wants the thing either.

12/6/2011 4:26:00 PM

arghx
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We'll have to give it another model year for sales to pick up. I'm not optimistic though.

It's just too expensive compared to a Prius.

12/6/2011 5:41:56 PM

Igor
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Quote :
"LMAO, where do you think the materials for the batteries comes from"
i realize that batteries are made from finite natural resources, but they happen to be re-chargeable and largely recycleable at the end of the lifecycle. The more relevant question is where is the electricity going to come from, and what is the overall efficiency of the energy transmission chain.


Quote :
"I respect a lot of the engineering that went into the Volt, but this issue with battery fires may taint the car permanently. This car could be a financial disaster for GM/taxpayers if it isn't already"


Bettery issues are not helping anyone, but this car was not supposed to be monimaker, if even profitable at all. GM has cookie cutter fleet vehicles to take care of that.

Quote :
"Considering they've sold less than 7,000 total in a year, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it didn't. Also considering that of all the cars Chevy sold in November, the Volt accounted for less than one percent, they really haven't proven that anyone wants the thing either "


2011 Volt in itself may have not changed anything in itself, but the forthcoming generations of it and a swarm of plug in hybrids from other manufacturers that Volt spurred definitely will.

Model T was not much of a car, but it proved that the technology is available to the masses.

[Edited on December 6, 2011 at 5:57 PM. Reason : .]

12/6/2011 5:53:34 PM

optmusprimer
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Quote :
"It's just too expensive compared to a Prius."


You don't get it. The Volt is not the Prius, no more than a "hybrid" Escalade is a Prius. Completely different market.

12/7/2011 8:30:59 AM

synapse
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haha i can hear it now

Quote :
"THESE AUTOMOBILES ARE TOO EXPENSIVE AND ARE COMPLETELY UNRELIABLE."


Quote :
"YOU HAVE TO TRAVEL WITH 3 TIRES FOR A DAY TRIP!!! NO THANK YOU!!"


Quote :
"MY HORSES DON'T COST AN ARM AND A LEG AND THEY DON'T LEAVE ME STRANDED IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. I'LL STICK WITH THEM!"

12/7/2011 10:02:43 AM

TKE-Teg
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^retarded poster is retarded.

12/7/2011 10:10:42 AM

arghx
Deucefest '04
7566 Posts
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Quote :
"The Volt is not the Prius, no more than a "hybrid" Escalade is a Prius. Completely different market."


No, I understand that. But the general public doesn't. Why should they get an expoding Volt when they can get a Prius for way cheaper?

12/7/2011 11:37:27 AM

synapse
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Quote :
"Why should they get an expoding Volt"


Hyperbole much? Volts are exploding now?

Quote :
"Also Tuesday, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, whose agency includes NHTSA, told reporters that the Volt is safe to drive even though the government is investigating the fires. NHTSA is interested in setting up procedures for safely dealing with electric cars after crashes.

Transportation officials launched their investigation after a Volt that was damaged in a crash test caught fire at a test facility in Wisconsin in June. The blaze occurred three weeks after a side-impact crash test, and the car had been left out in the elements after the test. Investigators then tried to duplicate the fires by similarly damaging two Volt battery packs. Both set off fires.

GM has said that no Volts have caught fire in real-world crashes. The company is notified of any crashes through its OnStar safety system, and it dispatches a team to drain the batteries within 48 hours. GM said NHTSA didn't drain the battery packs of energy after the tests, but the automaker acknowledged that it hadn't told the agency of its procedures back in June when the first fire occurred."


Quote :
"GM says that its post-crash protocols call for the pack to be drained if it is damaged, something NHTSA did not do after the initial test"



How many fires have there been? Have the incidents been confined to NHTSA vehicles...or has an actual customer's Volt caught fire? I'm thinking the former.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/12/07/nhtsa-refutes-allegations-it-dragged-its-feet-on-chevy-volt-fire-investigation/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20111206/us-volt-battery-fire/

12/7/2011 1:01:42 PM

TKE-Teg
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To be honest if I was interested in a Volt the concern of a battery fire would be very minimal to me.

12/7/2011 1:47:24 PM

CarZin
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I'm now the local Volt expert. I just bought one today.

A couple things... Somewhere back in the thread, someone that said they sat in the car said the interior was no better than a Prius. Either that person hasnt sat in a Prius, or isnt very observant. The interior is vastly superior to a Prius. Is it of the grade of a 45k car? No. But it also is quite nice.

The gadgets on the car are amazing. It is THE geeks car. They have integrated the hell out of this car. Stuff I have played with today...

1) used the iphone app to locate the place I wanted to go, and then told it to send to the Volt. When I got in the car, it asked me if I wanted to load the route.
2) I turned the car on from the movie theater as the credits rolled through the app which turned on the heat warmers and got the cabin the correct temp.
3) Called On-star and had them look up a number and dial it for me (lazy, but I was told I had to try it)
4) setup the charging schedule on my car so it only charges when I am on off-peak rates (did that on my laptop as well)

Bottom line, while it isnt everyone's cup of tea, the car is pretty bad ass.
Its the first time I have gotten in a car and been confused

1/8/2012 1:19:47 AM

Nighthawk
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If you got in any vehicle and were confused, I am impressed. We are definitely doing lunch this week, and I think you are driving.

1/8/2012 7:55:18 AM

NeuseRvrRat
hello Mr. NSA!
34833 Posts
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how much does the service for all that shit cost?

1/8/2012 8:17:21 AM

CarZin
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Onstar is included free for 3 years with the volt. Doesn't cost me anything right now. I am really impressed with the onstar. I had a technical question on why the brake pedal was tapping, called onstar, and they got me an answer from an engineer. It also does diagnosis of the car automatically and uploads it to me and GM.

1/8/2012 10:25:44 AM

Chance
Suspended
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Why was the brake pedal tapping?

1/8/2012 11:28:35 AM

CarZin
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Since the car is electric, it doesn't use standard hydraulic braking. It has some electric pump that continues to keep the system pressured, and you can feel it when on the brake.

I am going to love the repair bills on this.

1/8/2012 12:30:31 PM

arghx
Deucefest '04
7566 Posts
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Quote :
"I am going to love the repair bills on this."

1/8/2012 1:25:59 PM

CarZin
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Well, it is going to be interesting. The car has a very tiny service schedule. So the regular suggested maint is quite light.

1/8/2012 7:50:34 PM

synapse
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Quote :
"The car has a very tiny service schedule. So the regular suggested maint is quite light."


Less moving parts?

Congrats on the purchase. Got a pic of it and the charging station?

1/8/2012 10:11:36 PM

CarZin
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Ill have one up by the end of the week. I need to get it to TVP to get coated.

Progress energy 'should' give me a level 2 charger for free. Right now I am using the 110. It's slow.

1/8/2012 11:05:49 PM

TKE-Teg
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Congratulations on the purchase. I'll definitely be interested to know how you enjoy the experience. BTW can I ask what made you want to purchase this car? Is it for the geek experience, as you mentioned a bit?

Quote :
"1) used the iphone app to locate the place I wanted to go, and then told it to send to the Volt. When I got in the car, it asked me if I wanted to load the route.
2) I turned the car on from the movie theater as the credits rolled through the app which turned on the heat warmers and got the cabin the correct temp.
3) Called On-star and had them look up a number and dial it for me (lazy, but I was told I had to try it)
4) setup the charging schedule on my car so it only charges when I am on off-peak rates (did that on my laptop as well)"


Cool stuff, though I'd say that items 1-3 could be accessories that any regular (gasoline only powered) vehicle could have as well, if an automaker so chose to offer them (and I think some are already, definitely OnStar).

Good luck with the new vehicle!

1/9/2012 11:42:24 AM

CarZin
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Thanks. Yes, a lot of those features I mentioned could be done with existing onstar vehicles. This was the first time I've had onstar, so I was impressed.

If I were to comment on the cool 'electric' only features, it would have to be:
1) silent drive
2) single gear drive (no gear changes).
3) Smooth application of power with constant torque at any speed
4) Being able to 'fill up' at work for free. Once I have this approved, I'll pay about 90 cents a workday to drive 70 miles. With my old BMW, that same distance was $10.65 a day. HUGE savings. With my mini cooper that was $7.42.

I have wanted a Volt ever since they thought up the idea. Its not really the geek factor. In fact, I have been anti navigation system in every car I owned, but I was forced to buy it with this car because the integration was very important to the overall car. I believe that we can't have security in this country without diversification of our transportation system. We can't all be plug-in hybrids, hybrids, natural gas, or pure electric, but getting more people in those cars will be cheaper and more effective over the long term to solve our energy importation issue compared to all the others options. I am trying to do my part as an early adopter.

If gas prices end up going to $5 a gallon over Iran, its not going to take too long before more people see my view point.

http://thewolfweb.com/photos/00524735.jpg

My drive to work today was 35 miles. Due to the rain, a ton of stop and go on 540, and using the heater and other things, I made it about 32 miles before the generator kicked in. The last 3 were gas. I expect on better days, I'll make it to work on all electric, and some days do a lot worse (really hot).

[Edited on January 9, 2012 at 12:46 PM. Reason : .]

1/9/2012 12:42:11 PM

TKE-Teg
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Quote :
"4) Being able to 'fill up' at work for free. Once I have this approved, I'll pay about 90 cents a workday to drive 70 miles. With my old BMW, that same distance was $10.65 a day. HUGE savings. With my mini cooper that was $7.42."


Very true, but even at today's fuel prices it will take a long time to make up the $20k premium over a more conventional vehicle. So cost savings isn't really an argument for this vehicle.

Continued development of alternative methods of vehicle propulsion are important of course, for several reasons. So I applaud you for that!

1/9/2012 1:45:46 PM

CarZin
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First of all, I think in fairness, the car compares better with a car in the 25-30k range than it does for the 20-25. I have a good feeling for that now since I have been looking at cars for the past 2 weeks with my wife. I think the actual premium is closer to 15k, especially when you consider the better than average warranty and the premum support Volt owners are getting from GM. The support for Volt owners has been described as Cadillac+ since they have a lot riding on this. I have already noticed it.

However, using your assumptions and my driving I will go about 16,480 miles a year on EV. This will cost me about $551 in electricity. Had those miles been driven in a car averaging 25 MPG (a big assumption these days), that is 660 gallons. At $3.50 a gallon, that is a cost of $2310, netting a savings of $1759 a year. Mutiply that times 5 year, gives you a savings of $9000. Factor in the government subsidy, and that makes your savings $16,500.

So, in the end, you really paid a $4000 premium for the latest greatest, which isnt too bad. If the price of gas goes to $5 a gallon, your fuel savings would be $14,000 over 5 years, and adding the government subsidy, you reach an amount saved of $21,500.

However, the point I see most often missed is that it isnt always about the savings. If gas went to $5 tomorrow, or $10, I know I could drive practically gas free, and I would be insulated to some degree for the swing. It removes the variability of gas prices. I also dont have to be one of those fools at the gas station with 5 gallon tanks the next time we have a shortage.

[Edited on January 9, 2012 at 2:56 PM. Reason : .]

1/9/2012 2:54:49 PM

TKE-Teg
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^very valid points. As I haven't sat in or driven a Volt all I can base my opinion on are magazines reviews. I'm not the type of person this vehicle is targeted at so I have a difficult time finding a reason to think it's better.

I do think I'd be more interested in a Volt than a Leaf though

1/9/2012 3:01:23 PM

sumfoo1
soup du hier
41029 Posts
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^^ if gas goes past $5 per gallon... i will whip together a home built EV for 15k and drive purely on electric


1/9/2012 3:54:37 PM

CarZin
patent pending
10519 Posts
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haha, I need to get that song on my iPhone.

1/9/2012 4:02:06 PM

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