http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365781,00.html

6/11/2008 11:01:07 PM

Goddamn that's fucked up

6/11/2008 11:06:25 PM

and to think how stable and successful they were a few years ago.

6/11/2008 11:08:41 PM

fuck.

6/11/2008 11:23:58 PM

given the opportunity I would shoot Robert Mugabe in the face

6/11/2008 11:25:49 PM

It's bad enough that Mugabe is evil, but what makes it worse is he can get large numbers of others do do his bidding. I just don't understand how you can be so cruel to another person.

6/11/2008 11:30:30 PM

Fuck Zimbabwe and Africa in general. Why can't we work on fixing America's problems before the rest of the world's?

6/11/2008 11:31:00 PM

oh shit I didn't realize the purpose of this thread was to solve the problems in Zimbabwe

its a shame there's no way to be educated about things without seeming like we want to go and FIX stuff

I mean, it would be better if this shit was resolved
but you're right, we should put out the fires burning in our own homes first

6/11/2008 11:33:19 PM

Nobody said anything about us fixing it, the discussion is about how awful the situation is. For the record, I'm certainly not a fan of the US trying to solve other countries' problems.

6/11/2008 11:41:04 PM

I wasn't trying to flame, and I suppose the intention of this was more to inform, but I still stand by my sentiments.

6/11/2008 11:41:06 PM

we do have SOME responsibility in Africa

its all fucked up because of colonialism

6/11/2008 11:41:57 PM

I'll give you that. But as I understand it, the Brits and French had colonies there, not the US

6/11/2008 11:54:08 PM

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but technically the US didn't directly have anything to do with African colonialism.

Personally, I feel that the west as a whole has at least some moral responsibility to try to resolve the clusterfuck that is Africa aside from simply pouring aid on it and hoping that it resolves itself.

6/11/2008 11:54:22 PM

Quote :

"but you're right, we should put out the fires burning in our own homes first "

I can't tell how sarcastic you were being, but we're burning candles compared to their fires.

6/11/2008 11:54:56 PM

Quote :

"given the opportunity I would gladly shoot Robert Mugabe in the face cut off Robert Mugabe's hands and feet, and then throw a petrol bomb at him."

6/11/2008 11:56:22 PM

if we hadn't been out breaking countries and bombing their cities and torturing hapless civilians for the past, oh, 5 years, tying our entire standing army and ready reserve into an occupying police force... well, maybe we might have the moral authority and backing to criticise nations such as Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Burma, etc.

6/12/2008 3:33:58 AM

First, concerning the topic, that's some of the most fucked up shit I ever heard of.

^ Second, George Bush has done more to help Africa than any president ever, you fucking fool--given our loony-left media, I'm not surprised that you don't know about it. Or maybe you just don't want to know about it.

Bush of Africa

Quote :

"President Bush's sense of mission to improve the lives of the people of the Middle East has attracted so much attention that the Wall Street Journal called him 'Bush of Arabia' the other day over an article by Fouad Ajami. Less widely appreciated are Mr. Bush's achievements in Africa, which are worth marking as the president embarks today on a visit that is scheduled to include trips to Benin, Tanzania, Rwanda, Ghana, and Liberia. Mr. Bush has committed $15 billion to fight AIDS and HIV in Africa, and the result is that the number of Africans benefiting from anti-retroviral drugs has soared to 1.3 million today from 50,000 a few years ago. A similar effort is under way to fight malaria, with similarly promising results. Mr. Bush hasn't gotten much credit for this among the American public, but, as a BBC interviewer noted yesterday, his approval rating in Africa is in the 80% range, which is astonishingly high. The numbers are borne out by the Pew Global Attitudes survey. Critics of Mr. Bush seize on the low numbers in that survey for people's opinion of America in the Europe or in parts of the Arab world. But a 2007 Pew survey found 88% of those in the Ivory Coast view America favorably, 87% of those in Kenya, 80% of those in Ghana, and 79% of those in Mali. These numbers top the Pew charts. Africa has plenty of problems, as we have recently written about in respect of Chad and Darfur. But with the contributions of the Bush administration and private philanthropy such as that of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, basic health conditions are on the way to improving for many residents of the continent. Asked about all this yesterday, Mr. Bush characteristically looked beyond the poll numbers to the broader principles. 'I believe to whom much is given, much is required. It happens to be a religious notion. But, it should be a universal notion as well,' the president said. 'I believe America's soul is enriched, our spirit is enhanced when we help people who suffer.'"

http://www.nysun.com/editorials/bush-of-africa/71401/

6/12/2008 4:12:07 AM

I'm aware of the increased aid and assistance, and that is one of a very short list of positive accomplishments of this administration.

but my point, tangential as it may seem, is that given our abuse of power we have no longer have the moral authority -- or even physical capacity -- to act act against true evil, even when it's a humanitarian crisis that's right in front of everyone's face.

yes, we gladly play the interventionist world police, destroyers of states, occupiers of sovereign nations, architects of gunbarrel democracy when there's oil profits and a target-rich environment..

but when hundreds of thousands are being slaughtered and/or left to die due to their ethnicity? ... then it's "OH NOES, WE DON'T INTERFERE IN SOVEREIGN NATIONS!"




[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 4:31 AM. Reason : ]

6/12/2008 4:26:22 AM

^
http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=529542

6/12/2008 4:55:56 AM

Part of the reason Mugabe can get away with others doing his bidding is a lot of people in the country think Tsvangirai (Mugabe's opponent) is some kind of "puppet for white interests". And a lot of the population still like Mugabe cause he's credited as getting rid of white power. It's a case of where the "less intelligent" of a population idealize things about their leader that are not really true and will defend him to the death cause they can't accept their views are wrong or want to accept the reality.

I followed this more after the election occurred and went and read some South African news sites and Zimbabwean message boards. You have a majority of people on there that support Tsvangirai. And then there's the rest that think Tsvangirai is a white puppet and want to go get their guns and kill the whites and Brits. It's a hopeless situation that will end one of three ways: 1.) Mugabe retains power as dictator in an arranged election with Tsvangirai in exile or dead, 2.) Post-election there will be a civil war (which some Zimbos want), and 3.) An international force comes in, helps Tsvangirai, and deposes Mugabe with a gun.

Option 3 is the least likely, cause for reasons of "pride" it would be an African force doing it, and for some reason South African President Thabo Mbeki refuses to do anything with Zimbabwe. Mbeki though is a bit of a lame duck, as he lost the ruling party's presidential election, and is not really the power of the party as you'd think a president should be.

My money is on option 2. I see no way this does not end in civil war. Zimbabwe's VP today said that voting for the opposition is akin to war. Intimidation can only take a dictator so far, so I think Mugabe will lose and the MDC better stock up on weaponry. The only problem with this is you know it will draw in some of the neighbors. A lot of the rulers came to power just like Mugabe did.

As for the regular Zimbabweans? Well, they suffer. A lot of them have illegally immigrated to surrounding countries. The economy has gone to crap cause the security situation, lack of foreign money, and Mugabe's disastrous decision to take part in the Congo War in 2000 has caused rapid inflation. Here's a hotel bill from last month, look at the numbers. It's much worse now than what's listed there.



The country has depopulated substantially. In South Africa, partly due to that country's unemployment problems and economic malaise, there's been a lot of violence carried out recently against Zimbabweans and other foreign nationals, as there's an impression they're taking South African jobs.

If you want more insight, here's a South African news source that covers Zimbabwe pretty well. http://www.thetimes.co.za/specialreports/Zimbabwe/Default.aspx?id=363615

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 9:00 AM. Reason : /]

6/12/2008 8:53:43 AM

Quote :

"George Bush has done more to help Africa than any president ever, you fucking fool--given our loony-left media"

I agree that Bush has done a substantial amount in aid to the countries in Africa, but throwing money at them is not what's going to solve the problem (I don't know what is going to fix the problem, besides some serious nation building*). They're using the aid to further their own wealth, and not giving it back to the people that need it the most, much like the situation post-cyclone in Myanmar.

*Not saying that this country needs to get itself involved in anymore nation building...it's done us so well so far

6/12/2008 9:01:25 AM

These actions call for some more spreading of democracy

6/12/2008 9:07:54 AM

i know a chick from zimbabwe.

6/12/2008 9:17:10 AM

^^ Seriously. This was the real decent shot Zimbabwe had at showing that they could transition to a democracy from a dictatorship and they failed, and they're committing hundreds of human rights atrocities in the process.

War is a bitch though, and this war wouldn't be any different. If it was just Mugabe being a dick and his military leaders following along it'd be different, but it's Mugabe AND the military heads all being assholes and hanging onto power in the most brutal way possible. You'd have to capture/kill everybody involved in the government and retrain an entirely new military with none of the officers that were loyal to the ZANU-PF party (to completely destroy the power structure they had).

There's nothing that the UN or anybody else could do to make their lives worse for them either. With a destroyed economy, inflation through the roof, and an already angry populace, what the hell else could happen? The only option left, really, is war.

6/12/2008 9:58:17 AM

is there any real chance of something happening with the election?

Burma just passed their 'constitutional reform' bill by 96%. When you're in control of the press, military, and elections, why does it even matter what people vote? Mugabe's party won by a hairsbreadth in 2002, but how are they not past the tipping point yet?

Ever since then, the fraction opposition parties have been able to get steadily declined. Now they have control of everything, and why would they give that up? They run the country, there are no two ways about it and the only to oust them is by war - the same situation for many countries in the world.

The election won't matter. You can't call something like that an election.

6/12/2008 10:04:20 AM

^ For some reason, western civilization has this dumb stupid notion that people putting a paper in a box on who they want to be the leader makes the world warm and fuzzy, flowers grow, rainbows go across the sky, everyone joins in a circle and sings Kum-by-yah. Dictators and corrupt legislators of course have figured out that they can have "elections", but gerrymander electoral districts, stuff ballots, and just have the military walk the streets to remind people of where the power is.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 10:33 AM. Reason : /]

6/12/2008 10:26:04 AM

Quote :

"if we hadn't been out breaking countries and bombing their cities and torturing hapless civilians for the past, oh, 5 years, tying our entire standing army and ready reserve into an occupying police force... well, maybe we might have the moral authority and backing to criticise nations such as Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Burma, etc. "

GD that is some funny shit. You cant make up shit like this.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 10:30 AM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 10:29:56 AM

no worries. I've long since stopped expecting you to ever respond with any commentary of substance. i know it's tough for you.

6/12/2008 11:09:54 AM

Quote :

"Mugabe's party won by a hairsbreadth in 2002, but how are they not past the tipping point yet?"

Apparently, the government concedes that Morgan Tsvangirai and his MDC party won a plurality, but you need a majority to take the presidency, so they're going into a runoff election. However, Tsvangirai's party believes that they won an outright majority, and there are accusations that Mugabe and Co. of rigging ballot counts to force a runoff, giving the ZANU-PF time to intimidate and setup the runoff for a Mugabe victory. That's why the MDC was talking about boycotting the runoff. Not sure of the current situation though.

As for foreign intervention, if any nation has a responsibility, it should be South Africa. However, the SA government has been relatively hands off; I believe that the ruling ANC is sympathetic to their revolutionary brothers in the ZANU-PF though growing international criticism and more reports of electron fraud and abuse may force President Mbeki to take action.

6/12/2008 12:53:39 PM

winner take all politics

...

just read the article

barbaric

i personally think there is no solution and that our governments should stay out or their affair (including the direct giving of aid)

NGOs can do whatever the fuck they want... it's their money and their necks

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 1:21 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 1:15:10 PM

Quote :

"NGOs can do whatever the fuck they want... it's their money and their necks"

But when the non-profit volunteers get kidnapped, and dismembered...

Who goes in to clean up and bring back the pieces?

6/12/2008 1:26:11 PM

do I have to make the "fuck those dirty peacecore hippies?" comment?

but seriously, I think I understand that the majority of NGOs will not go into very dangerous areas.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 1:31 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 1:31:41 PM

^ That is down to the specific NGO, but you're definitely correct. I'm pretty sure the majority of them, the Peacecorps, etc... have very specific rules keeping them out of what can readily be discerned as the most dangerous areas.

I'm not sure though, if the Zimbabwe issues are isolated geographically, or if it is pretty much all over the nation that things such as this are going on.

Quote :

"do I have to make the "fuck those dirty peacecore hippies?" comment?"

There's no need. I think there are enough people in TSB of that mindset, that it's a sort of precondition to the thread.

6/12/2008 1:54:59 PM

Quote :

"no worries. I've long since stopped expecting you to ever respond with any commentary of substance. i know it's tough for you. "

your bumper sticker phrases are just full of substance.

6/12/2008 1:57:33 PM

I think that if I were an NGO, I would send people to help the 3 million refugees in South Africa instead of trying to go in the country and directly face a xenophobic war-hungry ruling regime that had been committed a daunting list of human right abuses.

You know, if it were me doing this.

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 2:15 PM. Reason : ]

6/12/2008 2:14:57 PM

which probably explains why you, personally, arent in a non profit peace organization.

6/12/2008 4:21:26 PM

I've supported NPOs directly in efforts targeted towards Africa on multiple occasions.

But no, never went there for such a cause, so that'd be key.

6/12/2008 4:28:36 PM

^^ He's got a point. If you check out (for example) the PeaceCorps site... You'll notice that they haven't worked in Zimbabwe for the past 6 years... They do, however, have active groups in every country that directly borders Zimbabwe. http://www.peacecorps.gov/index.cfm?shell=learn.wherepc.africa It would appear that it is the way things are done.

6/12/2008 4:29:18 PM

The PeaceCorps are worried as shit about their people getting shot / rapped / etc.

They've kept a really good record (statistically), and they really really don't want to break that. Else, obviously, people stop volunteering.

'wait and catch' strategy FTW

You'd have to be Greenpeace-stupid to go into that country about now.

6/12/2008 4:34:13 PM

yes, you can blame colonialism to an extent.

but at some point, you've got to get your act together.

6/12/2008 5:11:28 PM

^

6/12/2008 5:12:11 PM

^^ Spoken like a true Indian.

6/12/2008 5:19:18 PM

^ i'm cautiously going to take that as a compliment

6/12/2008 5:56:54 PM

Haha, it was supposed to be.

6/12/2008 5:57:59 PM

but seriously

fuck white people

6/12/2008 9:34:14 PM

^ Exactly, screw the whites and long live the superiority of the Irish race!

6/12/2008 9:45:22 PM

6/12/2008 9:47:57 PM

Still waiting for the "this is what you get when black people run a country" comments.

I mean God, I almost feel like Americans aren't racist anymore.

6/12/2008 10:06:30 PM

^ Some white South Africans are saying it. A lot of white South Africans have emigrated out of the country since 1994, saying the country has been steadily falling apart since then and they're not sticking around waiting for the fireworks.

(The main issue in South Africa is that there is only one party that can possibly win elections cause there is only one party that the majority of citizens will vote for, meaning that party is unaccountable for running government poorly cause they still have the voters vote for them, and that party has hence attracted the interest of self-centered corrupt careerists noticing this fact.)

The former white ruler of Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, Ian Smith, died late last year in Cape Town. He told any journalist that came up to him for an interview, "I told you people this [Mugabe] would happen. You didn't listen."

[Edited on June 12, 2008 at 10:36 PM. Reason : .]

6/12/2008 10:12:36 PM

^^ that's always implied with these thread

and how untrue is it?

africa, as a whole, sucks

6/12/2008 10:23:03 PM