Found a good video on Youtube that is actually backed up by statistics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyoLuTjguJA&eurl=http://www.showmasters.us/

6/19/2008 1:24:32 PM

i need more facts. could you find a wiki article as well?

6/19/2008 1:26:44 PM

If guns are made criminal then only criminals will have guns

6/19/2008 1:31:47 PM

Gun control = using both hands

6/19/2008 1:53:15 PM

people don't generally get killed by stray knives

6/19/2008 1:59:20 PM

^cute

6/19/2008 2:10:51 PM

^^ I bet 300 years ago, before the gun became the weapon of choice, they did.......

6/19/2008 2:13:01 PM

Quote :

"people don't generally get killed by stray knives"

Somebody has obviously never ridden the El late at night...

6/19/2008 2:23:39 PM

^^^^ How about "stray" machetes?

Machete Season: The Killers in Rwanda Speak

Quote :

"During the spring of 1994, in a tiny country called Rwanda, some 800,000 people were hacked to death, one by one, by their neighbors in a gruesome civil war. Several years later, journalist Jean Hatzfeld traveled to Rwanda to interview ten participants in the killings, eliciting extraordinary testimony from these men about the genocide they perpetrated."

http://astore.amazon.com/oneworldnet03-20/detail/0312425031

[Edited on June 19, 2008 at 2:30 PM. Reason : .]

6/19/2008 2:26:07 PM

I don't think any of this really matches the definition of stray.

6/19/2008 2:26:44 PM

^ Indeed. Nonetheless, my point stands.

6/19/2008 2:29:56 PM

People generally don't die from drinking and riding a horse.

6/19/2008 2:31:41 PM

Armed victims offer a disincentive to engage in violent crime. Unarmed victims are a tempting target. Alternatives to individual self defense, such as police and courts, offer criminals a more remote disincentive to prey on the innocent. Immediate disincentives are going to be a more potent deterrent than the remoter possibility of facing arrest and prosecution at some indeterminate point in the future. All other things being equal, benefits and costs both have to be discounted more the further in the future they occur. Immediate deterrent > future deterrent. QED

6/19/2008 4:23:39 PM

National Machete Association Speaks Out Against Machete-Control Legislation

Quote :

""There's nothing more American than a Chevy pick-up with a machete rack on the back. And I'll be damned if some pansy in Washington who's never held a blade in his life is going to tell me what I can and can't do with mine.""

Quote :

""Them East Coast types just don't get it," said a shirtless Hastings, brandishing a silver 14-inch model he bought at a recent machete show. "They may not have much use for machetes in their big cities, but out here in the country, they're a necessity. If I were to somehow get my hands on a coconut, what do you suppose I'd slash it open with–a knife and fork?""

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27976

6/19/2008 4:28:29 PM

I totally agree. There should be no gun control at all. I mean, look at Africa and their gun control policies. We should totally try to be more like them.

6/19/2008 5:55:05 PM

^ Yeah, we shouldn't let permitted citizens carry guns in banks either:

Armed customer stops bank robber in Wayne County

Quote :

"Canton Township police tell WXYZ-TV and The Ann Arbor News Webster pretended to have a bomb Monday and demanded a teller give him money. A co-worker alerted Nabil Fawzi, who has a concealed-weapon permit. Fawzi held Webster at gunpoint until police arrived."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-mi-robberheldup,0,2613537.story

Oops!

6/19/2008 6:03:38 PM

I'm not arguing against guns. I'm arguing against no gun control at all which is what some of you people want.

6/19/2008 6:05:39 PM

^ Who the fuck is "you people"? And see a "well regulated Militia."

6/19/2008 6:16:16 PM

Quote :

"what some of you people want"

A comment like that coming from a user name like "IM HIGH 420 LOL!!!!!!!!!" is worth paying attention to.

6/20/2008 9:27:57 AM

^^^^Congrats. A story of a guy with a gun stopping a guy who pretended to have a bomb from robbing an insured bank.

vs. how many deaths that could have been prevented if stupid fucks weren't allowed to have guns? You totes have a point, though.

6/20/2008 9:55:17 AM

Ban snakes

http://www.snopes.com/critters/gnus/snakerob.asp

6/20/2008 10:00:59 AM

Quote :

"vs. how many deaths that could have been prevented if stupid fucks weren't allowed to have guns?"

NONE!!! Did you not even watch the video? "stupid fucks" are going to have guns whether they are "allowed" to or not. The more law-abiding gun owners, the better.

6/20/2008 10:08:21 AM

The idea that tighter gun control means that only bad people will have guns should be on a "greatest hits" album.

If you're telling me that punk-ass wannabe in downtown Durham is going to hit up the black market, I laugh directly at you.

But let's pretend you're right. Let's pretend that tighter gun control laws wouldn't do a thing to keep violent fucks from arming themselves.

We're still left with stupid fucks that can't keep their guns away from their kids, stupid fucks who "didn't think it was loaded," and stupid fucks who get into a fight at a football game, drive home, get their gun, then drive back to the football game to shoot someone and ruin tailgating foreverandeveramen.

So you're still in the minus column, buddy.

6/20/2008 10:15:51 AM

did you just criticize hooksaw for using anecdotal evidence, then use the tailgating anomaly to try and make your point?

ps: drugs are illegal...good thing that punk-ass wannabe in downtown durham can't get drugs through the black market

6/20/2008 10:19:34 AM

I never said that anecdotal evidence was anything. I'm sure there are, like 12 whole stories per year about some dude saving the day with his trusty concealed weapon. There are a lot more than 12 whole stories per year about some stupid fucking doing some stupid fuck thing with his.

His anecdotal evidence = zero lives actually saved from the fake bomb
My anecdotal evidence = two fatal shootings

6/20/2008 10:24:52 AM

This seems like a very common argument to control our lives: If something can be misused by a minority of people, we must use gov't to take it away from everyone.

6/20/2008 10:26:05 AM

Quote :

"This seems like a very common argument to control our lives: If something can be misused properly used by a[n even smaller] minority of people, we must use gov't to take it away from everyone. assume that they aren't at all dangerous except in a few freak cases."

You're just bitter. I'll bet you cling to your religion, too.

[/elitist awesomeness]

[Edited on June 20, 2008 at 10:30 AM. Reason : ]

6/20/2008 10:29:40 AM

Bear, are you aware that people who have concealed carry permits are less likely to commit a crime than police officers are? You keep making it sound like any idiot can be approved for a concealed carry permit

Besides how come so many people can still get illegal drugs? They were made illegal, but people still get them and use them all the time. Why wouldn't guns continue to be the same way? Seems like simple supply and demand to me

6/20/2008 10:32:46 AM

I just don't see a 17-year-old kid running firearms out of his parents' basement

****side note having nothing to do with anything - Granted, my experience with drugs is pretty limited what with my desire not to do any that don't taste like beer, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone I know buying their drugs from someone older than 17. I'm sure there are older dealers out there, but jeez...all I've seen are bored rich kids selling shit out of their parents'(who never wonder why their children have so many friends who just come in for a few minutes at a time) homes.****

Nor do I see a particularly industrious group of slackers growing their own guns somewhere.

And since the gun crowd is so big on the deterrent theory, I'd suggest that there might be a harsher penalty for being caught with a weapon designed to kill someone than being caught with a dime bag.

6/20/2008 10:43:07 AM

Quote :

"I'm sure there are, like 12 whole stories per year about some dude saving the day with his trusty concealed weapon."

Once again, did you actually watch the video? What about the statistics about Washington DC in the video? That's looking at an entire city, not just "12 stories per year".

6/20/2008 10:44:02 AM

^^ where do you think those 17 year old kids get the drugs btw? Do you think they grow them themselves?

I'm in support of owning guns because my dad goes in late night to close his automatic car wash to empty the change out of the machine and has had to turn a gun on someone before. Who knows what would've happened if those three guys came up to him and he wasen't licensed to tote his .44 magnum.

6/20/2008 10:46:41 AM

Quote :

"I don't think I've ever seen anyone I know buying their drugs from someone older than 17. I'm sure there are older dealers out there, but jeez"

wow, jeez is right...no dealers older than 17? wowy wow...no shame in being ignorant about drugs and drug dealers, but you're ignorant about drugs and drug dealers

also no you can't grow your own firearm like you could weed for example...but most weed that people get probably comes in from mexico, or canada, or off a boat in florida, etc...let alone all the other drugs not named marijuana that often can require fairly sophisticated refining and synthesis...but the point is just like drugs, people bring guns into the country illegally

Quote :

"I'd suggest that there might be a harsher penalty for being caught with a weapon designed to kill someone than being caught with a dime bag."

thats an interesting topic...if you're a felon or something i completely agree...but contrary to your own fears, you come across people all the time who are carrying concealed and you never know it because they are more responsible than you give them credit for...do you think someone should get a harsher penalty if they are caught with a knife or a brick of cocaine?

6/20/2008 10:50:07 AM

its a lot easier to disguise, hide and compact drugs when shipping in illegally than it is to do with guns.

also, as far as coming in from mexico or canada, that really isn't the case any more and hasn't been so since the early 2000's. thats why they had to reevaluate their drug enforcement methods. they noticed during a lot of pick ups of people drinking underage at bars or in other such environments that they would have marijuana on them and it was clear that it had been more locally grown and most of which done indoors.

6/20/2008 10:58:51 AM

Quote :

"they noticed during a lot of pick ups of people drinking underage at bars or in other such environments that they would have marijuana on them and it was clear that it had been more locally grown and most of which done indoors."

theres definitely plenty of that too, but there are people who get busted bringing hundreds of pounds of weed over the mexican border (example) or getting busted moving multiple kilos of coke across state borders (example)

again aside from weed, most people dont grow their own cocaine or grow their own heroin, etc

6/20/2008 11:08:27 AM

i agree with the heroin or coke. i've never refuted that. nor did i say that people had ceased in bringing in marijuana from other places. my point was that its not the overwhelming concern it once was.

6/20/2008 11:17:12 AM

i don't think its much less of a concern...with all the illegals that still get over the southern border, I'm sure plenty of them still bring drugs...and for the most part the people who grow their own stuff indoors might not get more than a couple pounds per year if that...whereas there are still lots of places in Mexico where they have massive fields

still though my only point was that just because something is made illegal doesn't mean its going to leave society, especially if there is a constant demand for it (like the demand for drugs and guns)

6/20/2008 11:26:46 AM

Quote :

"I just don't see a 17-year-old kid running firearms out of his parents' basement"

Ah the "I just don't see" argument. Well, I guess we'd better pack up and go home folks, he's really got us beat here. I just don't see an effective response to these airtight arguments.

Quote :

"Nor do I see a particularly industrious group of slackers growing their own guns somewhere."

And as we all know, what you can't see, can't kill you.








Yes, that is a homemade .50 BMG sniper rifle.


A close-up of the bolt.

And now, just for fun...





Oops, now that you've seen it, I guess it can. My bad, sorry.

6/20/2008 11:39:26 AM

In addition to ^

Quote :

""I'm sure there are, like 12 whole stories per year about some dude saving the day with his trusty concealed weapon.""

Quote :

"Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. “Targeting Guns”, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, 1997"

Quote :

"Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired. National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics"

It's clear your feelings on this matter aren't holding up to reality.

Also, a simple look at DC would show you how very true the statement banning guns just leaves guns in the hands of criminals.

[Edited on June 20, 2008 at 12:39 PM. Reason : dc]

6/20/2008 12:36:55 PM

I think people just miss the point. Gun violence is a symptom of other problems in society and guns are not the cause. Much like how alcoholism is usually a symptom of other mental health issues and not the actual cause. When people get the two confused it leads to finding solutions to the "problem" that often enhance the harms.

btw how the fuck do you homemake something as complex as a sniper rifle. I would think a lot of engineering and research goes into. I'd be worried my homemade design blows up when i pull the trigger.

[Edited on June 20, 2008 at 12:40 PM. Reason : lo]

6/20/2008 12:39:14 PM

The actual construction of something that reliably puts lead in the same general spot probably isn't too difficult, what makes a real "sniper" rifle so expensive is the tolerances, but the actual design of the gun hasn't changed much since the advent bullets with casings (minus various recoil dampening tricks)

6/20/2008 12:48:24 PM

Let me just throw a few things out. Then I'll just have to check in tonight so I can see what's going on in internet fight world.

I don't want to take everyone's guns away. Well, in fairness, I do want to take away arms that basically serve zero purpose apart from killing a lot of people in a small amount of time.

I realize that Joe Responsible might be armed to the teeth underneath his jacket because this might be the night that the commies finally make their move, because he's going to be there the next time them terrorists make a move, or because he's afraid of black people. I further realize that short of a Communist invasion, a terrorist attack, or a black person playing into one of Joe's stereotypes in a more harsh than average fashion, I'll never know because Responsible is literally Joe's name. I realize further that Joe Responsible just might save a life or two in his gun-toting lifetime.

Just as you're sure that my fears about paranoids, assholes, and idiots getting their hands on guns in perfectly legal fashions and shooting holes in people for pretty much the opposite of self defense have been realized on more than a few occasions.

Here are some things we agree on:

- There are people getting guns that should not be getting guns.
- Presumably, we all think they should be stopped.

The gun lobby should be applauding any effort to curtail the procurement of guns by violent people, whack jobs, and morons. Instead, they look at any effort to but rules on who can own guns and what guns should be capable of doing as a full frontal assault on their rights (the well regulated part of well regulated militia apparently slipping right past them).

If the fine folks at the NRA would get their heads out of their asses and work with someone trying to keep, say, a mentally disturbed VT student from buying a couple of guns in a way that protects the right of Joe Responsible we probably wouldn't even be having this argument.

6/20/2008 12:50:29 PM

interesting you bring up the VT shootings...what if there had been a few good ol' virginia mountain folk who happened to be students at VT and they were allowed to carry their federally approved concealed weapons on campus, instead of just being able to legally carry concealed in nearly ever other part of Blacksburg...perhaps the complete coward who carried out the attacks would've been a little more hesitant to go on his shooting spree since he no longer had the comfort that everyone else on campus was completely defenseless...maybe it wouldn't have changed his mind though but mayabe he would've simply been shot dead by one of those mountain folk before he had the chance to shoot 30+ unarmed innocent people

6/20/2008 1:08:21 PM

also with the VT shootings, it's not very hard to get a hold of the items needed to make a pipe bomb

6/20/2008 1:26:24 PM

yeah i do not see what the fucking big deal is about letting certified trained people carry their concealed weapons on campus; much like they would anywhere else.

Why does the label of "student" make them less responsible with their gun then some dude who graduated high school and is working in the factory. We are not talking about bringing guns into the RBC center.

6/20/2008 4:54:21 PM

Quote :

"Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired."

There is absolutely no way this is accurate.

6/20/2008 5:55:27 PM

^agreed.

"like anyone can even know that"


and is that talking about cops showing guns as well?

because if it is then it is irrelevant anyway.

[Edited on June 21, 2008 at 4:14 AM. Reason : hfsd]

6/21/2008 4:13:25 AM

Quote :

"I'm arguing against no gun control at all which is what some of you people want. "

aside from megaloman, who doesn't really count for the purposes of this argument, who wants this?

6/21/2008 4:20:21 AM

aaronburro

6/21/2008 7:24:40 AM

What are the stats for Australia and gun related crimes? I would think they'd be a good case study of what happens when you go from having guns be legal to more or less banning them completely.

6/21/2008 9:00:01 AM

When you are discussing gun control in the U.S., I think that you have to look at statistics in the U.S. Other countries, like Australia, may have serious cultural differences, so you can't just compare them with the U.S.

6/21/2008 9:50:26 AM